Sabbath Issue

[Fidei Defensor]

Did you read my post? It seems you cut and pasted only fragments of it. I said the "Yes the Law and Old Covenant is editable, editable by God Himself."

[BobRyan]

5 hours ago, Fidei Defensor said:

Did you read my post? It seems you cut and pasted only fragments of it. I said the "Yes the Law and Old Covenant is editable, editable by God Himself."

Key points in your post - are quoted and responded to from scripture - in my previous post.

 

Yet Christ in Mark 7:6-13 says it is not editable.

⁶ He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:

‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
⁷ And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’

⁸ For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men —the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”

⁹ He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. ¹⁰ For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ ¹¹ But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), ¹² then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, ¹³ making the Word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

So then - it is still wrong to "take God's name in vain" - even in the NT.

Matt 5 

¹⁷ “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. ¹⁸ For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. ¹⁹ Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 

 

And so.. it is still wrong to take God's name in vain. still a sin to do it.

 

Rom 3:31 "Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God"

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 

So then - taking God's name in vain - is still wrong.

 

1. No Bible text says that if one of the Ten Commandments - such as "do not take God's name in vain" is not quoted in Genesis or in all of the NT - it should be deleted.

2. No Bible text says that the Ten Commandments are deleted or else downsized to "nine Commandments"

3. The "Sabbath was made for mankind" Mark 2:27

4. From Sabbath to Sabbath shall "all mankind come before Me to worship" in the New Earth for all eternity after the cross. Isaiah 66:23

5. No Bible text says that the Sabbath commandment - "the seventh day the Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH) thy God" has been "edited by God Himself to point to week-day-1".

6. No Bible text says "week day 1 is the Sabbath of the Lord Thy God" or "week day 1 is the Lord's Day. But we do have "the Son of Man is LORD of the Sabbath" Mark 2:27 and the "Sabbath - the Holy Day of the LORD" Isaiah 58:13

7. In Acts 18:4 the Jews and Gentiles are hearing the Gospel "every Sabbath" in the synagogues. But no Bible text says that Jews and gentile believers were hearing the gospel "every week day 1".

 

Edited May 1, 2017 by BobRyan

[BobRyan]

44 minutes ago, Giller said:

I think one important way to read scriptures, is doing so without adding and taking away from it, otherwise it will obscure the message.

And most will use scriptures to try and say that there is no sabbath at all under new covenant times, stating that it is not mentioned under the new covenant, yet what about these next scriptures?

Heb 8:7-11
(7)  For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
(8)  For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
(9)  Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
(10)  For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
(11)  And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

It ties this in with the new covenant, and when we become born again, we get God's laws written in our hearts, 
 

True. And as you point out that quote in Hebrews 8 is right out of Jeremiah 31:31-33.

What is more - of the many things not quoted in the NT - is the commandment "Do not take God's name in vain". There is no Bible text saying "whatever is not repeated should be considered deleted"

[Fidei Defensor]

I still don't see how me saying God can edit his Law and Covenant is an issue. Is He not God? Can He not change things? I mean we Christians are under a new covenant, not the Law of Death. In fact, if you go back to the Law you become cursed again, "For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law," (Galatians 3:10), and if you are going to follow the Law instead of live under Grace of God manifest through Christ, then you must be circumcised, that's part of law, and here is what Paul says, "Take notice: I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all," (Galatians 5:2), and "For if you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ! You have fallen away from God's grace." (Galatians 5:4).

[Riccardo]

Dear Brother I believe you have so many things out of context I really don't know were to start.  You start with Mathew & Mark's harmonizing scriptures which say the same thing. The heading is in my bible is (controversy over Sabbath work) The point was that the pharisees said Jesus & the discipels were doing something unlawful,   Jesus pointed out in Mark 7:13 that the pharisees placed their traditions over Gods law,   the point Jesus is raising here is the pharisees were in error, if they were not Jesus is a sinner & breaking the law. Then Jesus tell them that the Sabbath was made for man, whereas the Pharisees were making it the opposite. I have heard the traditions added  by the pharisees are in the thousands but don't quote me on the amount. 

Next is Colossians 2:16-19 you should start at 14-18 ( Keep in mind the bible mentions 2 kind of Sabbaths) the yearly sabbaths & the seventh day Sabbath. Verse 14 Having wiped away of REQUIRMENTS that was against us, which is contrary to us, & He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.  15 Having disarmed principalities & powers , He mad a spectacle of them, triumphing over them it.  16 So let know one judge you in food or drink or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths. 17 which are SHADOWS of things to come but the substance is of Christ. The weekly Sabbath was instituted at creation & part of the 10 commandments, its a weekly reminder of our our loving all powerful creator, & as you said He blessed it & SANCTIFIED it sanctified means to put aside for holy use. The yearly Sabbaths related to the history of Israel. Col 2:16,17 specifically states "let no one judge you regarding sabbath days which are a shadow of things to come. The seventh day Sabbath is a memorial of creation not a shadow of something to come, it was pre sin therefore impossible for it to be a shadow also. Heb 10:1 connects the the law of shadows with animal sacrifices. Ezek 45:17 uses the exact same expression in the exact same order  as Col 2:16,17 & connects all with the ceremonial system of feasts & sacrifices, there are to many to list. The annual sabbaths were intimately connected to events foreshadowing Christ's death & his second coming. they were designed by God to be shadows or pointers to the coming Messiah.

Rom 14:5,6.  I'd rather start at verse 1 which sets the tone for the entire passage indicating that the discussion focuses on doubtful things. The seventh day Sabbath set apart by a loving God at creation, one of the 10 commandments & placed in the heart of the moral law & to be observed on the new earth was no doubtful matter. The key to the passage is found in verse 6. he that regards the day regards it to the Lord & he that regardeth not the day regards it not to the Lord. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord  for he gives God thanks, & he that eateth not to the Lord, he eateth not for he giveth God thanks. Verse 2 brings up those weak in faith with not much knowledge many of the new Christians were idol worshipers & were concerned about things offered to Idols & then sold in the market place. Another issues was some particular Jewish Christians believed there was particular merit in fasting on certain days & judged others by their own standards, the pharisees fasted twice a week & boasted about it. Lk 18:12  in Rom14 Paul is pointing out that to fast or not to fast on a certain days a matter of individual conscience. Sometimes its helpful to carefully notice what the Bible text does not say as well about what it does Verse 5,6 say nothing about worship or the Sabbath. They simply talk about regarding a day. To say this particular day is the Sabbath is an unwarranted assumption.    

Here is how God spent the Sabbath is your final paragraph.  Our Lord Jesus blessed it & sanctified it at creation & I repeat Sanctified means set aside for holy use, our Lord who blessed it and sanctified it rested on the 7th day as it was his custom, not to do so was breaking the commandments therefore a sin.  No man has the authority to change the the day. There is so much more support for the day than what I have written.

I hope you can find some insight into the subject & I wish you all the best brother. I will not go tit for tat over the subject I've given my thoughts on the subject as you have. God bless                

  

[BobRyan]

On 5/1/2017 at 1:44 PM, Fidei Defensor said:

I still don't see how me saying God can edit his Law and Covenant is an issue. Is He not God? Can He not change things?

[/quote]

God says "I change not" Malachi 3:6

Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever."

"Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the LAW" Rom 3:31

Matt 5

¹⁷ “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. ¹⁸ For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. ¹⁹ Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 

(Which brings us to Mark 7:6-13)

The NEW Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-33 writes the "LAW of God" on the heart and mind. The moral law of God known to Jeremiah and his readers included what the Bible itself calls the "Ten Commandments".

The unit that Paul appeals to in the NT where "the FIRST commandment with a promise" is the 5th commandment. Ephesians 6:2

Thus it is "still sin" to take God's name in vain. - which is one of the Ten Commandments -- and the only commandment not quoted even in part in the NT.

Quote

 

I mean we Christians are under a new covenant, not the Law of Death. [/quote]

The NT says "the wages of sin is death" 

The NT says "Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 

The law that defines sin, that declares death for the violation of it... is written on the heart and mind under the NEW Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-33

1 Cor  7:19 "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God"

Hence it is "still wrong" for Christians to take God's name in vain.

 

Quote

In fact, if you go back to the Law you become cursed again,

[/quote]

Romans 8:4-9 Paul says the wicked do-not and can-not submit to the Law of God. But the saints filled with the Holy Spirit comply with it.

Romans 8 

the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. ⁵ For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. ⁶ For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. ⁷ Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. ⁸ So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

⁹ But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Quote

"For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law," (Galatians 3:10),

[/quote]

You are conflating two different subjects. The fact that one chooses not to take God's name in vain does not mean they have rejected the Gospel or that they are saved-by-works. Rather "These things I write to you that you sin not" 1 John 2:1... and "Sin is transgression of the Law" - 1 John 3:4.

But Gal 3 is talking about the idea of saved by the works of the law apart from Grace - apart from Christ. No amount of "not taking God's name in vain" will forgive even one sin committed. Both sides agree to this point. 

Quote

 

and if you are going to follow the Law instead of live under Grace of God manifest through Christ, then you must be circumcised

[/quote]

1 Cor 7 contrasts the moral law of God in the Commandments of God - which include the Ten Commandment... with circumcision and says this.

"Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing but what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19. It makes the very contrast you speak of such that it is still sin to "take God's name in vain" and yet.... circumcision is not required of gentiles in the NT nor required of them in the OT to be saved.

Quote

, that's part of law, and here is what Paul says, "Take notice: I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all," (Galatians 5:2), and "For if you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ! You have fallen away from God's grace." (Galatians 5:4).

Paul is not saying that if you choose not to take God's name in vain -- then you must be circumcised.

In fact in Gal 5 Paul points out that they have "fallen from grace" who choose to be circumcised gentiles - when this is not of the Bible, it is only legalism promoted by some Jews.

Hence in Romans 6 - "shall we sin because we are not under the LAW - but under grace?" - Paul condemns "sin" in Romans 6 and John reminds us that "Sin Is transgression of the Law" 

Edited May 3, 2017 by BobRyan

[Riccardo]

I'm not sure what you point is Brother    it seems like an each way bet?

[other one]

God did not change the old testament covenant, he made a new covenant with new rules and a new promise to those who joined it.  You can still be part of the old covenant but the promise of that covenant has nothing to do with eternal life with the Lord.  It pertains to the physical world and if you are not part of the new covenant you are not spiritually born and do not have assurance of heaven.

Mixing the two is dangerous.

 

[Riccardo]

So are you implying I am not part of the new covenant? & if so why would you think that.

Are you saying those who love God & try to follow the unchangeable moral law the ten commandments, are still attached to the old covenant?    

Matthew 5:18 for verily I say unto you, till heaven & earth pass away, not one jot nor tittle shall in no wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled.

Jn 14:15 if you love me keep my commandments.       Rev 12:17 And the dragon= satin was enraged with the woman=Gods church, & went to man war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God & have the testimony of Jesus Christ.   Rev 22:14 blessed are they that do His commandments that they may have the right to the tree of life.      Now,  I'm pretty sure he means all 10, not 9 & have people change one to suit themselves. 

Romans 3:31 What then do we make void the law through faith? Certainly not! on the contrary we establish the law. Romans 6:1 & 6:15 What shall we say then? shall we continue to sin that grace may abound? certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?  What is sin? the transgression of the law. What Law, the moral law.    I think these scriptures are very clear & not open to interpretation.                   

  We now are not under law> means we are now now longer under the condemnation of the law.  Rom 7:12 Therefore the law is holy & the commandments holy & just & good. read the rest of Rom 7 .   Rom 8:1 there is now no condemnation to those that are in Christ Jesus who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the spirit.  Those walking in the flesh are those that walk in their sinful nature & those in the spirit are obedient to our Lord, Heb 8:10 as his laws have now been placed it there heart & their desire is to please out of love, not to earn anything Jn 14:15 Love always leads to obedience.  

I am by no means saved by keeping the law, I don't do it for salvation, but love for my creator, savior, redeemer. Why do people want to place those that  keep the 4th commandment out of love,  as legalists, I don't understand Its jus one of the 10, God didn't give it as a burden but a blessing. 

Brother, I have mentioned it before on this site, Gods moral law is the 10 commandments & they stand forever unadulterated.   Either they exist in the ten format or they don't exist at all.  The new covenant was ratified, signed & sealed with the blood of Jesus. Nothing can be altered or added after his death, its a done deal.  Prior to his the Lords death, the lords supper was introduced also baptism both are apart of the now covenant for anything to be apart of the new covenant it had to be introduced prior to Christ's death & Sunday worship doesn't qualify in any shape or form. I hope some can take in the simple logic.

If any one brings up any ridiculous out of context new testament scriptures about Sunday worship they have no understanding of what they are reading. I can give quotes from basically  every major denomination declaring the same. That there just isn't any Sunday text for support. 

God be with you all.

[other one]

9 hours ago, Riccardo said:

So are you implying I am not part of the new covenant? & if so why would you think that.

Are you saying those who love God & try to follow the unchangeable moral law the ten commandments, are still attached to the old covenant?    

Matthew 5:18 for verily I say unto you, till heaven & earth pass away, not one jot nor tittle shall in no wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled.

Jn 14:15 if you love me keep my commandments.       Rev 12:17 And the dragon= satin was enraged with the woman=Gods church, & went to man war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God & have the testimony of Jesus Christ.   Rev 22:14 blessed are they that do His commandments that they may have the right to the tree of life.      Now,  I'm pretty sure he means all 10, not 9 & have people change one to suit themselves. 

Romans 3:31 What then do we make void the law through faith? Certainly not! on the contrary we establish the law. Romans 6:1 & 6:15 What shall we say then? shall we continue to sin that grace may abound? certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?  What is sin? the transgression of the law. What Law, the moral law.    I think these scriptures are very clear & not open to interpretation.                   

  We now are not under law> means we are now now longer under the condemnation of the law.  Rom 7:12 Therefore the law is holy & the commandments holy & just & good. read the rest of Rom 7 .   Rom 8:1 there is now no condemnation to those that are in Christ Jesus who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the spirit.  Those walking in the flesh are those that walk in their sinful nature & those in the spirit are obedient to our Lord, Heb 8:10 as his laws have now been placed it there heart & their desire is to please out of love, not to earn anything Jn 14:15 Love always leads to obedience.  

I am by no means saved by keeping the law, I don't do it for salvation, but love for my creator, savior, redeemer. Why do people want to place those that  keep the 4th commandment out of love,  as legalists, I don't understand Its jus one of the 10, God didn't give it as a burden but a blessing. 

Brother, I have mentioned it before on this site, Gods moral law is the 10 commandments & they stand forever unadulterated.   Either they exist in the ten format or they don't exist at all.  The new covenant was ratified, signed & sealed with the blood of Jesus. Nothing can be altered or added after his death, its a done deal.  Prior to his the Lords death, the lords supper was introduced also baptism both are apart of the now covenant for anything to be apart of the new covenant it had to be introduced prior to Christ's death & Sunday worship doesn't qualify in any shape or form. I hope some can take in the simple logic.

If any one brings up any ridiculous out of context new testament scriptures about Sunday worship they have no understanding of what they are reading. I can give quotes from basically  every major denomination declaring the same. That there just isn't any Sunday text for support. 

God be with you all.

I disagree for Christ's two laws expanded the ten and those are what the new covenant is built on. The ten commandments are a physical set of laws and Jesus's two are a spiritual level law and the two are not compatible as to eternal life. According to Matthew chapter 25 you can live your whole life and never break one of the ten commandments and still go to hell.

As for Sunday worship, I don't know anyone who thinks that replaced the Sabbath.