Doubt

[Retrobyter]

5 hours ago, JohnD said:

OH?

Due tell why there were no clouds before the flood of Noah.

No rain... I agree the scriptures support that view. No clouds?

The very mist / fog that rose each morning from the ground were clouds.

And the vapor canopy supports a humid, cloudy atmosphere (high altitude at least).

So, please inform us all.

Shalom, JohnD.

Sure. First of all, let's distinguish between water vapor (which is a true gas) and a cloud:

A cloud is defined as...

Quote

What are clouds?
A cloud is a large collection of very tiny droplets of water or ice crystals. The droplets are so small and light that they can float in the air. 

How are clouds formed?
All air contains water, but near the ground it is usually in the form of an invisible gas called water vapor. When warm air rises, it expands and cools. Cool air can't hold as much water vapor as warm air, so some of the vapor condenses onto tiny pieces of dust that are floating in the air and forms a tiny droplet around each dust particle. When billions of these droplets come together they become a visible cloud.

This information comes from Weather Wiz Kids. Since there's nothing we can do about dust particles in the atmosphere (although the original air was fairly dust free), we have to look at the temperature of the air and extrapolate what a "vapor canopy" means. If this were not a true water vapor canopy, then we would not be able to see the stars through it because there would be no difference between this "vapor canopy" and a cloud. Thick clouds we know about. We also know that, as they thicken with more and more droplets of water, those droplets of water collide and stick together (water adhesion) until the amount of water is too heavy to be supported by the breezes and winds in the air and they fall to the ground as rain. This, we know, did NOT occur before the Flood. Therefore, this water vapor could NEVER reach the condensation stage! If it could, then it would eventually rain. Clouds REQUIRE this condensation to exist. Therefore, clouds as we know them did NOT exist.

Thus, the weather was BACKWARDS before the Flood. Follow:

For there to be a "mist" such that...

Genesis 2:5-6
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
KJV

... then this "mist" or "fog" would only have been formed by cool conditions meeting with the ever-warm, water-vapor filled air, such as a cool ground in contact with the warm air. This would have happened at NIGHT, probably (from a Westerner's perspective) in very early morning (2 a.m.) until the dawn when the sun began to heat the ground! Also, we can't neglect the possibility that the ground waters may have been under pressure before the Flood, allowing for...

Genesis 7:11
11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
KJV

And, this pressure may have increased at night with the cooler earth, allowing more water to rise and water the earth. This "mist" or "fog" is NOT like the "clouds" we have today at all!

The atmosphere back then was different, too. The gases in the atmosphere did not rarify with height as they do today. Today, we can go hundreds of miles out and still find molecules from the earth's atmosphere.

Not so with the skies before the Flood: These skies, this atmosphere, was TRAPPED between the waters below the atmosphere (the "seas") and the waters above the atmosphere. This kept the the atmosphere warm throughout!

The reason why we can say (as above), "when warm air rises, it expands and cools," is because of the decrease in atmosphere pressure at higher altitudes. Indeed, we call the altitude when condensation begins the "dew point." It's seen as the flat underside of the white cumulus clouds.

In the world before the Flood, the "dew point" was always above "the waters above the skies," UNTIL that fateful day when God lowered it BELOW those "waters above the skies," probably with an explosion when all the fountains of the great deep - under pressure - were broken up and the pressure released. Then, "the windows of heaven were opened" and the deluge began.

[Guest BacKaran]

Interesting, thank you.

[JohnD]

I am amazed by the supposition of those who believe they can deduce the precise conditions of the ancient past by the conditions mankind is just now beginning to understand.

I had this same discussion with a chap at the Institute for Creation Research who explained how a vapor canopy around Earth was not possible (re-entry heat etc. to spare us all the boring details he went to illustrate his point). And he was a creation scientist. Dr. Chuck Missler pointed out that the atmospheric pressure in the beginning had to be at least twice that of today or pterodactyls could not fly. 

Everyone is entitled to believe whatever they want for whatever reasons they have.

Just doesn't make it true.

All I am saying.

[JohnD]

The point of this thread is to offer empathetic consolation to those who are only human (that would be most of us at some point in time) who have doubts.

There is solace in trusting God when things don't seem to add up or when we don't understand the why?

It is so easy for we humans to misunderstand. Even the meaning of this thread could be misunderstood to be that I am having doubts I am not having, or that this is somehow encouraging others to have doubts... I assure you, just the opposite is true. 

We have a faith founded on facts.

It is only the limitations of our ability to understand or our limited knowledge and experience that cloud things... speaking of clouds...