Abortion

[Guest shiloh357]

Just now, eileenhat said:

When looking for scripture, people have found nothing to win either side of the abortion argument beyond certain Biblical themes (I mentioned God's Heritage one above).

Many articles by many scholars* and still the debate rages.

So I assume you just want to refute what I said, already knowing it is conjecture when I take a Bible position, already.

*http://www.life.org.nz/abortion/abortionreligiouskeyissues/christian-religions/

No, you said that you got that from God.  But God never speaks unless it is to confirm His Word.  That's the only way we can test if what we claim came from God, really came from Him.   So I would like to see some Scripture that states when an unborn child receives its spirit/soul. 

[Guest shiloh357]

Just now, eileenhat said:

Re: Are visions scriptural?

Habakkuk 2:2 ESV

And the Lord answered me: “Write the vision; make it plain on tablets, so he may run who reads it.

https://www.openbible.info/topics/vision

I am not debating if visions are scriptural.  I am debating the accuracy of what you claim you received from God.

[Guest shiloh357]

17 minutes ago, eileenhat said:

Good question Shiloh

I liked this quote about that topic:

"Godly Visions

So how do we tell a godly vision from an ungodly one? A godly vision fits the characteristics of godly visions: The vision itself contains nothing opposed to biblical teaching and the results of the vision glorify God. (As we will see below, natural and demonic visions do the opposite.)"

https://www.jashow.org/articles/false-teaching/deception/true-vs-false-vision-and-how-to-tell-them-apart/

 

So, a vision from God has to contain nothing opposed to Bible teachings according to this one author (recommending reading the entire paragraph he wrote about it for further clarifications).

No, a godly vision will always be testable according to what is in the revelation of Scripture.   If you receive an alleged word from God, in a vision or by some other means, it will be confirmed in Scripture.   That means you will be able to show that Scripture also says, what you claim God spoke to you in a vision.  

[Guest shiloh357]

15 minutes ago, eileenhat said:

Then quote a scripture that says that.  I have not found one.

 

I don't need a verse for that.  The Bible is God's self-disclosure, His revelation of Himself to mankind.  We know God  by His Word.  It tells us everything we need to know.  All of our doctrine is informed by Scripture.  It is the only doctrinal standard we have and so anyone who claims to hear from God any kind of information that is not in the Bible is to be tested against Scripture to see if it lines up with revelation we have from God in His Word.  If you cannot demonstrate from Scripture that the information you claim to have from the Lord agrees with Scripture, then there is no reason to accept the validity of your claim that God informed you that babies do not have spirit at the moment of conception. 

[Remnantrob]

30 minutes ago, eileenhat said:

Then quote a scripture that says that.  I have not found one.

Proverbs 29:18 ESV

Where there is no prophetic vision the people cast off restraint, but blessed is he who keeps the law.

Right now only one state with 6 week limit (North Dakota)*.

* http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/06/18/us/politics/abortion-restrictions.html

Early Church fathers at one time chose the 40th day as the last day you could still receive penance**.

"A bit later in the century, in the Penitential Ascribed by Albers to Bede, the idea of delayed ensoulment is again supported. And, believe it or not, the woman’s circumstances are acknowledged:

“A mother who kills her child before the fortieth day shall do penance for one year. If it is after the child has become alive, [she shall do penance] as a murderess. But it makes a great difference whether a poor woman does it on account of the difficulty of supporting [the child] or a harlot for the sake of concealing her wickedness.”"

** http://addictinginfo.org/2013/03/21/abortion-church-conception-history/

Isaiah 8:20

[Logan]

When God gave us the Bible He said it was complete and not to be added to...so yes if you have a vision it must line up with scripture or it is not from Him.

[Remnantrob]

21 hours ago, eileenhat said:

Isiah 8:19 refers to witches and their false gifts.

When I once quoted a source here that someone pointed out was from a white supremacist, I took down my posts.

Are you stating that what I referenced, ie. Bible scriptures and an article about Early Church doctrines on abortion should both/either be pulled down because what led me to them was the Lord through one of his Holy Spirit gifts called a 'vision' because you are saying a verse in the Bible about 'witches' is related?

I've often heard that people are inclined to dis-trust visions because they feel they all come from Satan because they also dis-trust the Bible on how to deal with them (and when and how they appear).

 

Hey Eileen,

I'm sorry if my short post seemed to suggest to you that you have a connection with witches but that was not my intent.  I saw your question to shiloh requesting a scripture that confirmed his statement that

Quote

... a godly vision will always be testable according to what is in the revelation of Scripture.   If you receive an alleged word from God, in a vision or by some other means, it will be confirmed in Scripture.   That means you will be able to show that Scripture also says, what you claim God spoke to you in a vision.

You are correct of about the context of Isaiah 8:20 but I would suggest that there is a secondary application that can be applied to believers who make claims about God or on behalf of God that other believers might be expected to accept solely based on their testimony. What comes to mind is Matthew 15 where Jesus confronts the scribes and Pharisees because they are making claims about other believers(the disciples) based on revelations they got from God(traditions).  Jesus in vs 9 called them out for teaching the commandments of men as doctrine and in vs 14 where he claimed they were blind leading the blind. How was a disciple/believer able to tell the difference between suppositions and what was really revealed by God?  The answer is the secondary application that I mentioned early. Isaiah 8:20

Quote

 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

 

[Remnantrob]

10 minutes ago, eileenhat said:

I expect nothing.  Just my own work with the Lord produced this information due to my own person concerns, as a woman, that Trump (for example) means to use his authority to discredit those that are not Christians that feel they have the right to have abortions according to their State's laws currently in effect due to the protections offered by Roe vs. Wade's supreme court ruling.

I was just interested in God's vision of what he wants for his people, ie. not Satan's.

It settled some issues for me personally.

I offered additional evidence that I was led to, by this vision that the streams of time, had lost.

We have lost a handle on this situation because we have lost belief in God's authority here and have been placing man's authority, as ultimate, rather than looking to God first, then man, for what we care about.

You say that I somehow have such credibility as the Pharisees?

No, that would be people who have actual authority (ie. people who can over rule others).  I have no such power.

No one takes visions seriously.  Because they are 'visions'.  No, I see them as tools for anyone to get a handle on a topic that has been lost to time, due to Satan's wrecking balls.  Research therefore is all they are good for, ie. not evidence (except for the one that received it, for them it feels like a door being opened into Heaven).

Hey Eileen,

I really wish we were neighbors or something so that it would be a little easier to say things face to face as things that are written can become misunderstood.  I have no qualms with what you believe is a vision from the Lord concerning abortions because I didn't read the entire thread.  My initial response was to answer your question about scripture available relating to visions or proclamations being confirmed by the word.  My example of the Pharisees was not to put you specifically in that category.  I used them to say that everything we claim has to be confirmed by the bible.  And I'm sure you agree with that statement to an extent.  Visions are touchy just as much as the topic of speaking in tongues but they must be in line with what has already been revealed.  Could the Lord have given you a vision?....absolutely...the next question is did he.  

Now I'm not one to talk because my church is based on a woman who claimed to have multiple visions and you can see where that landed my church as a whole.  But, what has to be answered by those who believe in her writings as authentic visions from God is do they line up with what has already been revealed.  That's a whole other debate.  I just wanted to further clear the air that I wasn't trying to cast judgement on you, I was just responding to a question I skimmed over.  I'll go back over the thread to read what you originally wrote and then based on whether I believe its worth responding to I will comment.  Until then, I hope you accept my apology for any misunderstandings.

[Guest BacKaran]

I disagree vehemently to this....

There are times that an abortion may be appropriate,........

When does God say it's ever appropriate? That would be never.

 

Edited February 13, 2017 by BacKaran

[B3L13v3R]

Abortion for any reason is cold blooded murder.
(With a child who is being forced to abort, this murder would fall on the adults forcing this outcome.)

I was reaching out with the Gospel recently to a woman and her friend.
It became apparent she was in a cultic church setting for years with a false christ.
She thought she was "saved."

In our conversation the sin of abortion came up, and the Lord had her conscience pricked of the truth of this sin in her own life.
She went into a screaming rage at the sudden "fact" of this revelation that she had intentionally murdered her unborn child through abortion.

I kept calm with all the cussing going on, continuing to take opportunity to show her need for Jesus Christ who could, and was willing to forgive her should she repent, and believe on Him for the forgiveness or her sins. Letting on that the false god she was currently serving had no such power. (A lot of "looks" in our direction at this point as well.)

She stomped off, continuing on in her rage.
We've prayed for her a number of times, perhaps put out a prayer for her and her friend's Salvation also.