The shroud of turin and stigmata

[natasha]

35 minutes ago, TheMatrixHasU71 said:

Yes to all of that but that wasn't my point, sister. I was making a comment about how God supernaturally protected Paul from death from the lashings when Jesus, who, Yes, willingly GAVE His life, nearly died from blood loss from the lashes alone, never mind being crucified.

well, I did not read the entire thread so missed that

 

anyway, I don't know if Jesus almost died from blood loss alone...but apparently that was not God's plan...apparently He gave His life

 

thanks

[Blessed_Monk]

1 minute ago, Davida said:

 

I asked them a question. I did not make a statement. I'm sure you can see the difference if you re-read my posting.

[Jayne]

56 minutes ago, Blessed_Monk said:

[1]  Some years ago I watched a documentary on History channel about the shroud. "The Real Face of Jesus". I wasn't sure about the shroud's authenticity before. But the particulars this study brought forth concerning the image itself changed my mind. I believe it to be the shroud that wrapped our savior.

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[2]  In my reading Paul seems to draw a lot of conflict to himself according to his journaling in the testament.

In one verse he states he is not lying when he delivers a message to the church. In another scripture he calls himself the chief sinner among all the apostles. 

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[3]  In others he still holds to the old life label of temple pharisee. In other verses he refers to himself multiple times as an apostle. Though I don't recall any of the disciples who were with our Lord doing the same.

[1]  In all seriousness, I don't hold the History channel to be all that credible when it comes to Biblical issues.  Besides, how do you dovetail your belief that the shroud is real and the contradicting accounts in the Bible about the dead body of Christ and the wrappings themselves?  I posted those Biblical accounts on page 3 in this thread.  The Shroud of Turin directly opposes the accounts of the body of Christ in:

• John 20:7 - the wrapping was in two separate pieces, not one long one.
• Matthew 27:27-31 - Jesus face was beaten again and again and again, but no signs of this on the shroud's image.
• Isaiah 50:6 - Jesus' beard was prophesied to be pulled out, but the shroud shows an intact beard.
• Isaiah 52:14 - Jesus is prophesied to not even look human after the crucifixion.  The shroud clearly shows a man with not that many injuries.

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[2]  Yes, Paul said he was not lying to the church.  Yes, Paul called himself the chief of sinners.  Do those contradict each other?  Of course not.   He bears witness to that in Acts 22:4-5 where he says that he persecuted the church "unto death" before he was saved.  In the first chapter of Galatians, he speaks of his former life,  persecuting the church "beyond measure" and "tried to destroy it".

So Paul was not claiming to be a sinner in terms of lying or living an unethical or immoral lifestyle.  He spoke many times in the New Testament of his shame of once trying to destroy God's church before he was saved.

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[3]  I am not aware of where Paul called himself a Pharisee as in still "holding" to that belief systems and tradition.  I do know of at least two places where Paul gives the history of his Jewish place among the Pharisees, but he certainly isn't "holding" to it.    Just the opposite.  In Philippians 3, he says that if anyone could be made righteous in their flesh, he could have because he was a Pharisee among Pharisees and then he lists all his former credentials.

THEN he says that that is all a "loss" to him.  And that none of that made him righteousness and he "counts it all as DUNG" compared to being found in Christ through faith.

[Heavenunlimited]

37 minutes ago, Blessed_Monk said:

You're saying you believe if we don't know something for certain we should presume it to be evil?

No   just that we cant exclude it, therefore.

[Blessed_Monk]

16 minutes ago, Heavenunlimited said:

No   just that we cant exclude it, therefore.

Thank you for clarifying your prior remarks.  

 

22 minutes ago, Jayne said:

[1]  In all seriousness, I don't hold the History channel to be all that credible when it comes to Biblical issues.  Besides, how do you dovetail your belief that the shroud is real and the contradicting accounts in the Bible about the dead body of Christ and the wrappings themselves?  I posted those Biblical accounts on page 3 in this thread.  The Shroud of Turin directly opposes the accounts of the body of Christ in:

• John 20:7 - the wrapping was in two separate pieces, not one long one.
• Matthew 27:27-31 - Jesus face was beaten again and again and again, but no signs of this on the shroud's image.
• Isaiah 50:6 - Jesus' beard was prophesied to be pulled out, but the shroud shows an intact beard.
• Isaiah 52:14 - Jesus is prophesied to not even look human after the crucifixion.  The shroud clearly shows a man with not that many injuries.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

[2]  Yes, Paul said he was not lying to the church.  Yes, Paul called himself the chief of sinners.  Do those contradict each other?  Of course not.   He bears witness to that in Acts 22:4-5 where he says that he persecuted the church "unto death" before he was saved.  In the first chapter of Galatians, he speaks of his former life,  persecuting the church "beyond measure" and "tried to destroy it".

So Paul was not claiming to be a sinner in terms of lying or living an unethical or immoral lifestyle.  He spoke many times in the New Testament of his shame of once trying to destroy God's church before he was saved.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

[3]  I am not aware of where Paul called himself a Pharisee as in still "holding" to that belief systems and tradition.  I do know of at least two places where Paul gives the history of his Jewish place among the Pharisees, but he certainly isn't "holding" to it.    Just the opposite.  In Philippians 3, he says that if anyone could be made righteous in their flesh, he could have because he was a Pharisee among Pharisees and then he lists all his former credentials.

THEN he says that that is all a "loss" to him.  And that none of that made him righteousness and he "counts it all as DUNG" compared to being found in Christ through faith.

" And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself."  That verse doesn't state it was with the shroud. It was a piece of cloth wrapped about Jesus' head. Likely applied to the body to catch the blood there from our Lord's suffering and the crown of thorns that drew blood abrading his scalp.

 

Acts 23:6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.

[Jayne]

1 hour ago, Blessed_Monk said:

Acts 23:6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.

One of my favorite stories about Paul .... it shows the LORD has a sense of humor.  Again, when read in context - Paul is not holding to Pharisee doctrine or tradition.  He is trying to start a fight between the Pharisees and Sadducees so that he can escape.

Read back from Acts 21 (towards the end) through Acts 23.

[1]  While on one of his trips to Jerusalem, Paul was grabbed and arrested by the Jews for bringing Gentiles into the Temple and for preaching Christ.

[2] When the Roman soldiers were trying to decide whether to beat him, imprison him or what, they couldn't make sense of what the crowd was saying because the crowd was so violent.  The commander took Paul away and the commander accused him of being an Egyptian terrorist.

[3]  Paul asked to speak to the people in Aramaic and he was allowed.  Paul gave his conversion testimony.  All this did was to make the crowd even angrier.  They called for his death.  The Romans decided to flog him instead, but Paul said that he was a Roman citizen by birth and could not be flogged without a trial.

[4]  So the commander ordered the Pharisees and Sadducee to convene the next day and to try him and give a reason for his punishment.

[Here comes the good part! ]

[5] The high priest orders those standing next to Paul to hit him in the face.  Paul says that God is going to strike the high priest because he is a law-breaker.  Those standing gasp and say "How DARE you talk to the high priest like this!"  Paul says sarcastically, "Oh, I'm sorry.  I didn't know he was the high priest". Of course he knew.  This man was very ungodly and Paul was saying he did not recognize his authority.

[6]  But he has GOT to get away!  So, knowing that the Pharisees and Sadducees  can't stand each other and have polar opposite views about the resurrection, he got them on that topic.  The Pharisees believed in an afterlife.  The Sadducees believed that whatever relationship with God you had was here on this earth only - no afterlife.  They also didn't believe in angels.  The Pharisees did.

[7]  So he called out - "I'm a Pharisee!  You all are persecuting me because I believe in a resurrection from the dead!"  Well, that's all it took.  The Pharisees and Sadducees turned on each other - and went at it like the Hatfields and McCoys -or Democrats and Republicans.

[8]  Their fighting became just as bad as the violent crowd that the commander was concerned that Paul would be torn to pieces right there so he gets Paul away to the baracks.

The story continues from there and Paul is still threatened with death and is tried before Felix and Festus and Agrippa and is eventually set free.

 

 

[Blessed_Monk]

What a tragedy to impart Paul lied.

[Jayne]

On 2/8/2017 at 4:14 PM, Blessed_Monk said:

What a tragedy to impart Paul lied.

Where did I say he lied?

[Dennis1209]

On 2/7/2017 at 10:27 PM, Jayne said:

I have always been a non-believer in the authenticity of the shroud. Here's why.

[1] The Bible says that after his death that Jesus didn't even look human. I don't see much signs of physical suffering in the shroud to cause someone to not look human.  Isaiah 52:14  The Suffering Servant - "Just as many were astonished at you,– so his appearance was disfigured so to lose resemblance with man, so his form was marred beyond recognition as a man."

[2]  The impression of the face shows a completely manicured beard and mustache. The Bible says in the Messianic chapter of Isaiah 50 that Jesus' beard was ripped out.

[3]  Matthew 27:27-31 says that Jesus was beaten about the head with a staff "again and again". The face in the shroud shows no sign of being beaten: no swollen features and no hematomas [sp?].

[4]  The shroud is one long piece of material, but the Bible says that the headpiece was separate from the body piece.  John 20:7  "And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself."

There's more, but for those who believe, I won't convince them and for those who doubt, they need no more discussion.

It doesn't affect eternity so I'll not try to convince anyone of anything.

That's my opinion also. In addition, I think that's the reason no one recognised Jesus, because He retained His wounds. Just think of someone who always had a beard and suddenly shaved it off, or had it pulled out by hand. Normally a person doesn't recognise them right away. Just my thoughts...

As far as the shroud. Watching some documentary programs where the Vatican allowed some top scientists 24 hour access to the shroud and take a minute sample of it. It still stumps them how the image is seen and how it was done. 

[Dennis1209]

On 2/8/2017 at 2:10 PM, Jayne said:

One of my favorite stories about Paul .... it shows the LORD has a sense of humor.  Again, when read in context - Paul is not holding to Pharisee doctrine or tradition.  He is trying to start a fight between the Pharisees and Sadducees so that he can escape.

I too believe the Lord has a sense of humor. When Belshazzar seen the writing on the wall, what did his pants fill with. If I remember correctly, I think scripture records that incident was talked about for a long time back then.