Fidei Defensor Posted June 25, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 165 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 3,997 Content Per Day: 1.56 Reputation: 2,607 Days Won: 15 Joined: 04/29/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted June 25, 2017 1 hour ago, BobRyan said: That is true. But remember Tongues is almost entirely absent today - the actual gift almost never seen -- especially in Pentecostal and charismatic groups. Now lets quote a bit more of 1 Cor 12 and 1 Cor 14. 1 Cor 12 27 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, kinds of tongues. 29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? 30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? 31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts. 1 Cor 14 1. Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. 10 There are, perhaps, a great many kinds of languages in the world, and no kind is without meaning. 11 If then I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be to the one who speaks a barbarian, and the one who speaks will be a barbarian to me. 16 Otherwise if you bless in the spirit only, how will the one who fills the place of the ungifted say the “Amen” at your giving of thanks, since he does not know what you are saying? 1 In the Law it is written, “By men of strange tongues and by the lips of strangers I will speak to this people, and even so they will not listen to Me,” says the Lord. 22 So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe. ========================summary 1. The "strangers" speak other languages - other human languages... they are from other nations. 2. Tongues is NOT a sign for believers - but for unbelievers. 3. Tongues do NOT work for unbelievers if they see that you are speaking gibberish instead of their known language. 4. Desire Earnestly spiritual gifts, the greater gifts, especially that you may prophesy. 5. IF the known-human language that is given to you as a "gift" to speak and reach someone from another culture/nature - is given to you but no one in the congregation speaks that language - the refuse to speak it in church as it does not benefit anyone in church. Rather you can maintain that gift by speaking it at home ready to use it when in the presence of an unbeliever that speaks that language. BUT IF the modern false-tongues claims were true - and it is the immediate action of God the Holy Spirit coming upon you to speak in some heavenly language a message straight from God Himself - WHO ARE YOU to say to God "NO God! you are not doing this right! you must back off and only do this with Me at my house since no one here has interpretation for what you are saying... I command you to cease and wait -- until I am at home"?? Rather such a thing would be blasphemy against God (IF the modern counterfeit definition were remotely true.) The upside down aspect of the modern phenomena is a "sign" that it is entirely counterfeit not at all what the Bible is even talking about. Well Tounges is feared in most circles (because it might embarrass or make someone uncomfortable, ugh so they shut down Holy Spirit). Most brothers and sisters tend to use tounges in prayer, since it is the perfect prayer language, " And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord's people." (Ephesians 6:18), "But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost," (Jude 1:20), "What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also," (1 Corinthians 14:15), "For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries," (1 Corinthians 14:2), and "He that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church," (1 Corinthians 14:4). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted June 26, 2017 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 711 Content Per Day: 0.28 Reputation: 266 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/12/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted June 26, 2017 2 hours ago, Fidei Defensor said: Well Tounges is feared in most circles (because it might embarrass or make someone uncomfortable, ugh so they shut down Holy Spirit). It is hard to make that statement with confidence given that we have just shown that the vast majority of what people are faced with today is fake-tongues. 2 hours ago, Fidei Defensor said: Most brothers and sisters tend to use tounges in prayer, since it is the perfect prayer language, " And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord's people." (Ephesians 6:18), Which of course would be great if it were not the fake version. 2 hours ago, Fidei Defensor said: (1 Corinthians 14:15), "For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: The word "unknown" is inserted - it is not part of the actual text Which gets us to the part I mentioned where it is important to read the verses I highlighted that show that today's populist form is in fact a fake counterfeit not known to the Bible writers at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted June 26, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 165 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 3,997 Content Per Day: 1.56 Reputation: 2,607 Days Won: 15 Joined: 04/29/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted June 26, 2017 (edited) 14 minutes ago, BobRyan said: It is hard to make that statement with confidence given that we have just shown that the vast majority of what people are faced with today is fake-tongues. Which of course would be great if it were not the fake version. The word "unknown" is inserted - it is not part of the actual text Which gets us to the part I mentioned where it is important to read the verses I highlighted that show that today's populist form is in fact a fake counterfeit not known to the Bible writers at all. I make my statement in confidence because of personal experience, the experiances of those I know. Different parts of the world and if you are in US have different demographics, less Tounge speakers, more Tounge speakers. So I disagree with you. On Tounges, I stick to the Scriptures. Edited June 26, 2017 by Fidei Defensor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OakWood Posted June 26, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 867 Topics Per Day: 0.24 Content Count: 7,331 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 2,860 Days Won: 31 Joined: 04/09/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/28/1964 Share Posted June 26, 2017 16 hours ago, Fidei Defensor said: Another reason Tounges are feared is the Spirit of Jezebel and control. Tounges can lead to the Holy Spirit falling and controlling people don't want the Spirit in control. Why Tounges would offend me is odd, we live in an age when you hear other languages daily, and for some reason Latin and Greek and Slavonic being used in other churches doesn't offend, but Tounges does? I would say that speaking in Latin and Greek and Slavonic is not offensive because if you don't speak Latin or Greek or Slavonic then you won't understand it. The same way that if somebody spoke to me in Russian or Arabic, I wouldn't have a clue what they were talking about. Maybe I am naive but I always thought that speaking tongues could be understood by everybody... very few people can speak tongues but everybody who hears it can understand it in their own language, otherwise what is the point of it? The apostle Paul spoke in tongues because he travelled around different countries preaching and they all spoke different languages. He had no interpreter with him to translate what he said, yet every body he spoke to understood him. If somebody speaks to you in tongues and it sounds like gibberish then it's not really tongues. If somebody speaks to you in tongues and you understand it, and the guy standing next to you who doesn't speak your language (and you don't speak his) also understands it, then it is real tongues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted June 26, 2017 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 711 Content Per Day: 0.28 Reputation: 266 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/12/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted June 26, 2017 5 minutes ago, OakWood said: I would say that speaking in Latin and Greek and Slavonic is not offensive because if you don't speak Latin or Greek or Slavonic then you won't understand it. The same way that if somebody spoke to me in Russian or Arabic, I wouldn't have a clue what they were talking about. Maybe I am naive but I always thought that speaking tongues could be understood by everybody... very few people can speak tongues but everybody who hears it can understand it in their own language, otherwise what is the point of it? The apostle Paul spoke in tongues because he travelled around different countries preaching and they all spoke different languages. He had no interpreter with him to translate what he said, yet every body he spoke to understood him. If somebody speaks to you in tongues and it sounds like gibberish then it's not really tongues. If somebody speaks to you in tongues and you understand it, and the guy standing next to you who doesn't speak your language (and you don't speak his) also understands it, then it is real tongues. There are two different gifts - - one is the gift of speaking in the tongue of another culture/nation without having taken the time to learn it. The other gift (interpretation) - to be able to hear another language (that you never took the time to learn) and explain it in your own language. Typically the non-Christian has neither one. If someone is given the gift of speaking and understanding Mandarin Chinese - and they speak it to you - it will be confusing to you (unless you are also Chinese). Their "Gift" would be to witness to Chinese non-Christians in that language. Probably would not do a thing to reach out to you. Yet it is the real gift and its purpose is as 1 Cor 14 says -- a sign to unbelievers... a tool for evangelism. If you are a Christian and also have the gift of understanding -- interpreting - many foreign languages (that you never took the time to learn ) ... then you are not an unbeliever and those other "tongues" were not meant as a "sign for you" since you are not an unbeliever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted June 26, 2017 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 711 Content Per Day: 0.28 Reputation: 266 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/12/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted June 26, 2017 25 minutes ago, Fidei Defensor said: I make my statement in confidence because of personal experience, Experience can be a wonderful guide -- the Bible is an even better one because it is inspired by God. On the doctrine of Tongues - I stick with the scriptures. They prove that the modern practice in that regard is counterfeit - it is something not known at all by the Bible writers in the NT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OakWood Posted June 26, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 867 Topics Per Day: 0.24 Content Count: 7,331 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 2,860 Days Won: 31 Joined: 04/09/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/28/1964 Share Posted June 26, 2017 Just now, BobRyan said: There are two different gifts - - one is the gift of speaking in the tongue of another culture/nation without having taken the time to learn it. The other gift (interpretation) - to be able to hear another language (that you never took the time to learn) and explain it in your own language. Typically the non-Christian has neither one. If someone is given the gift of speaking and understanding Mandarin Chinese - and they speak it to you - it will be confusing to you (unless you are also Chinese). Their "Gift" would be to witness to Chinese non-Christians in that language. Probably would not do a thing to reach out to you. Yet it is the real gift and its purpose is as 1 Cor 14 says -- a sign to unbelievers... a tool for evangelism. That's what I think too.... sort of. I think too much nonsense is made out of speaking tongues. Since the Tower of Babel incident we've all spoken different languages. Although it's possible to learn another language or even several with a little time and effort, we are generally divided by language. But 'tongues' is different. It is something innate within everybody without us realising it. Those who have the gift from God can speak tongues without having to learn it - it just flows out of their mouths, driven by their thoughts and what they want to say - and when it does, all ears understand it. A Frenchman will hear it in French and a Japanese man will hear it in Japanese. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted June 26, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 165 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 3,997 Content Per Day: 1.56 Reputation: 2,607 Days Won: 15 Joined: 04/29/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted June 26, 2017 3 minutes ago, BobRyan said: Experience can be a wonderful guide -- the Bible is an even better one because it is inspired by God. On the doctrine of Tongues - I stick with the scriptures. They prove that the modern practice in that regard is counterfeit - it is something not known at all by the Bible writers in the NT. You cherry picked my statement. Left out that I said "I stick to the Scriptures." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OakWood Posted June 26, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 867 Topics Per Day: 0.24 Content Count: 7,331 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 2,860 Days Won: 31 Joined: 04/09/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/28/1964 Share Posted June 26, 2017 4 minutes ago, BobRyan said: Experience can be a wonderful guide -- the Bible is an even better one because it is inspired by God. On the doctrine of Tongues - I stick with the scriptures. They prove that the modern practice in that regard is counterfeit - it is something not known at all by the Bible writers in the NT. Well, you know it's counterfeit if you can't understand it...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swords99 Posted June 26, 2017 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 171 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 38 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/12/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted June 26, 2017 13 hours ago, BobRyan said: Its the same thing in the Bible -- it is just not what passes for tongues in popular Christianity today. Does not the scriptures say that not everyone receives the gift of tongues? (1 Cor. 12) Then why do Pentecostals insist that all must be baptized in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts