Could the antichrist be a Muslim

[Diaste]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 

What then followed Alexander the Great? If you remove Rome, you leave a HUGE hole! OF COURSE Rome followed Greece! Did you never see the movie about Cleopatra and Mark Antony? It was the END of Greece by Rome.

No. Alexander died and his many generals divided the kingdom. After some fighting the Grecian empire was consolidated into four regions: Egypt, Asia Minor, Greece and the Mideast.

In 323 BC what would become Rome was a small poor state fighting for it's life against it neighbors. Rome dominated the Italian peninsula by the 3rd century BC but their population was only around 300,000 people. Not nearly big enough nor with enough resources to challenge the great generals of Alexander. The Roman empire was not established until 27 BC, 300 years after the Diadochi ruled most of the know world.

Not Rome. The Diadochi. And from Seleucus, the beast rises.

[OneLight]

7 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Is that so? Challenge accepted

 

This is the seventh seal.

 

Rev 8:5

Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it on the earth; and there came peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning and an earthquake.

 

This is the seventh trumpet

 

Rev 11:19

Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm.

 

This is the seventh bowl

 

Rev 16:17-18

¹⁷ The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, “It is done!” ¹⁸ Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake.

 

The seventh seal and the seventh trumpet have the same description. The scene for the seventh seal is in heaven before the throne;

Rev 8

^{2 "}And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them."

^3" Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all God’s people,on the golden altar in front of the throne. ⁴ The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of God’s people, went up before God from the angel’s hand."

So there are two of the main events that occur with the same attributes, lightning, rumblings, thunder, earthquake and the same setting. I know you're thinking it's a stretch but it's not, the seals really mirror the trumpets i.e., The sixth seal must occur in close proximity the 7th trumpet as the description of the seventh trumpet contains,  

Rev 11:18

" The nations were angry,
    and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
    and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
    both great and small—"

At the sixth seal we also see a great earthquake, so great the mountains and islands disappeared,

Rev 6

¹² I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake.The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, ¹³ and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. ¹⁴ The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

We see the same kind of earthquake at the seventh bowl,

Rev 16

¹⁸ Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since mankind has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake. ¹⁹ The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed.

This has to be that same earthquake because if the mountains fall at the sixth seal, the cities must also collapse, meaning the seventh bowl must be poured out nearly simultaneously with the sixth seal. There is also a great hailstorm that occurs at both the seventh trumpet and the seventh bowl. Now I suppose there could be two unrelated hailstorms but with all the other similar attributes I doubt it.

So the 7th trump, the 7th bowl and the 6th seal all occur at the same time or very nearly. Conventional thought says trumps follow seals and bowls follow trumps. From the first reading of the seal we see they span all the way to the Day of the Lord at the 6th seal, which would be well after the midpoint. This means some trumps already sounded and in the case of the 5th trumpet the people of God are still on earth, sealed in their foreheads, so the Lord has not yet come to gather them. The 5th trump must therefore sound before the 6th seal.

I think there's a few more examples but this should suffice.

 

Though I agree there are similarities, I also believe that the seals are minor to the trumpets, and the trumpets minor to the bowls.  Lets take the example of the 7th bowl.  You left out the last part of verse 18.  here it is in it completion.

And there were noises and thunderings and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth.

You see, each seal, trumpet and bowl has their purpose.  They cannot be at the same time or they would loose their purpose.

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, OneLight said:

Though I agree there are similarities, I also believe that the seals are minor to the trumpets, and the trumpets minor to the bowls.  Lets take the example of the 7th bowl.  You left out the last part of verse 18.  here it is in it completion.

And there were noises and thunderings and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth.

You see, each seal, trumpet and bowl has their purpose.  They cannot be at the same time or they would loose their purpose.

Which chapter?

 

1 hour ago, OneLight said:

Rev 16

¹⁸ Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since mankind has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake.

The above was in my reply.

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, OneLight said:

 

You see, each seal, trumpet and bowl has their purpose.  They cannot be at the same time or they would loose their purpose.

Of course. But that does not prove the trumps arise from the seals and the bowls rise from the trumps. Which cannot be the case as we see trumps occurring during the time the seals are opening. The seals are an overview of the entire time period. The trumps and bowls, mostly occur inside the framework of the seals. Quite appropriate imo.

[OneLight]

45 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Of course. But that does not prove the trumps arise from the seals and the bowls rise from the trumps. Which cannot be the case as we see trumps occurring during the time the seals are opening. The seals are an overview of the entire time period. The trumps and bowls, mostly occur inside the framework of the seals. Quite appropriate imo.

Revelations proves it.  Revelation 8:1-6

When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.  And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets.  Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.  And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel’s hand.  Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake.

So the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

Notice that the introduction of the trumpets are after the seventh seal is opened.  Verse 6 comes after verses 1 through 5. 

[OneLight]

58 minutes ago, Diaste said:

2 hours ago, OneLight said:

Though I agree there are similarities, I also believe that the seals are minor to the trumpets, and the trumpets minor to the bowls.  Lets take the example of the 7th bowl.  You left out the last part of verse 18.  here it is in it completion.

And there were noises and thunderings and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth.

You see, each seal, trumpet and bowl has their purpose.  They cannot be at the same time or they would loose their purpose.

Which chapter?

Revelation 16.  Here is Revelation 16:17-21 - NKJV

Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, “It is done!”  And there were noises and thunderings and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth.  Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.  Then every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.  And great hail from heaven fell upon men, each hailstone about the weight of a talent. Men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, since that plague was exceedingly great.

That is far worse then the 7th seal and 7th trumpet.

58 minutes ago, Diaste said:

 

2 hours ago, OneLight said:

Rev 16

¹⁸ Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since mankind has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake.

The above was in my reply.

I don't use the NIV as it leaves scripture out.  Take a look at www.biblegateway.com and see what all the versions of the bible have in common when it comes to Revelation 16:18.  Click through the different versions.  I am sure you will wonder why the NIV left that out.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

No. Alexander died and his many generals divided the kingdom. After some fighting the Grecian empire was consolidated into four regions: Egypt, Asia Minor, Greece and the Mideast.

In 323 BC what would become Rome was a small poor state fighting for it's life against it neighbors. Rome dominated the Italian peninsula by the 3rd century BC but their population was only around 300,000 people. Not nearly big enough nor with enough resources to challenge the great generals of Alexander. The Roman empire was not established until 27 BC, 300 years after the Diadochi ruled most of the know world.

Not Rome. The Diadochi. And from Seleucus, the beast rises.

By the time Antiochus came to power, Rome had grown. Remember, there was a Roman Republic winning wars before Rome became a Empire. Rome defeated the Corinthians. Wikipedia states:  "The Greek peninsula came under Roman rule during the 146 BC conquest of Greece after the Battle of Corinth.

 

In fact, Antiochus came face to face with Rome: again from Wikipedia:  " Gaius Popillius Laenas who delivered a message from the Roman Senate directing Antiochus to withdraw his armies from Egypt and Cyprus or consider himself in a state of war with the Roman Republic. Antiochus said he would discuss it with his council, whereupon the Roman envoy drew a line in the sand around Antiochus and said: "Before you cross this circle, I want you to give me a reply for the Roman Senate." This implied Rome would declare war if the King stepped out of the circle without committing to leave Egypt immediately. Weighing his options, Antiochus decided to withdraw. "

As Antiochus was losing power, Rome was gaining power.

The Antigonid dynasty lasted until 168 BC - defeated by Rome.

The Ptolemaic dynasty  lasted to 30 BC: Cleopatra, joined by Mark Antony, were defeated by Rome.

The Selucid Dynasty lasted to 64 BC: their ultimate overthrow by the Roman general Pompey.

The Cassander Dynasty ( Antipatrid Dynasty) lasted only to 297 BC - wiped out by the Antigonid Dynasty.

If you wish to call these "the Diadochi, fine. But it was still GREECE.

So just as Daniel has shown us, it was Babylon, overthrown by Media with Persia behind, and then Persia overthrown by Alexander at the great Battle of Issus. Then finally Rome defeated all three remaining parts of the Greecian empire.

As Daniel of Rome: " the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise. "

There can be no mistake here: Rome defeated Greece. But no empire defeated Rome: she just fell apart.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, OneLight said:

Revelations proves it.  Revelation 8:1-6

When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.  And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets.  Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.  And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel’s hand.  Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake.

So the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

Notice that the introduction of the trumpets are after the seventh seal is opened.  Verse 6 comes after verses 1 through 5. 

Of course you are correct. Any other view but one after the other just as it is written will be proven wrong.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Of course. But that does not prove the trumps arise from the seals and the bowls rise from the trumps. Which cannot be the case as we see trumps occurring during the time the seals are opening. The seals are an overview of the entire time period. The trumps and bowls, mostly occur inside the framework of the seals. Quite appropriate imo.

Hmmm: Seals in chapter 6 and final one in chapter 8. Trumpets begin later in chapter 8 and go to chapter 11. Your theory does not fit. REmember, any theory that must rearrange will be proven wrong.

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

No. Alexander died and his many generals divided the kingdom. After some fighting the Grecian empire was consolidated into four regions: Egypt, Asia Minor, Greece and the Mideast.

In 323 BC what would become Rome was a small poor state fighting for it's life against it neighbors. Rome dominated the Italian peninsula by the 3rd century BC but their population was only around 300,000 people. Not nearly big enough nor with enough resources to challenge the great generals of Alexander. The Roman empire was not established until 27 BC, 300 years after the Diadochi ruled most of the know world.

Not Rome. The Diadochi. And from Seleucus, the beast rises.

Yes, in a way: Antiochus rose. Way back then! NOT FUTURE.