Could the antichrist be a Muslim

[Diaste]

On 6/1/2017 at 9:48 PM, OneLight said:

Really?  Where do you think Jesus will hold the Great White Throne Judgment?

Revelation 20:11-15

Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.  And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.  The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.  Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.  And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Not sure, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. proves location.

[iamlamad]

Diaste wrote:

Looking at both of these we see the saints murdered at the fifth seal, and gathered between the 6th and 7th seal, none of which remain on earth or in the grave, According to consecutive theory this must occur before the sounding of the trumps, but at the 5th trump we see people with the seal of God on earth. Not possible unless trumps and seals are concurrent.

There are different people groups being mentioned. It is the CHURCH that is gathered, but it is the Jews (Hebrews) that are sealed for their protection.

In Rev. 7, the intermission between the 6th and 7th seals, we see two events taking place or having taken place. Picture this intermission as the closing of the curtains on one act of a play. What goes on behind the curtain? They are rearranging the set for the next act. That is what John is doing here: the set must be ready for the next act, which is the start of the 70th week of Daniel at the 7th seal.  So two events MUST TAKE PLACE (the setting made ready) before the 7th seal.

1. The 144,000 must be sealed for their protection

2. The Bride of Christ must be transported into heaven for safety.

In Revelation 7 we see both of these accomplished.

[Diaste]

20 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Diaste wrote:

 

 

There are different people groups being mentioned. It is the CHURCH that is gathered, but it is the Jews (Hebrews) that are sealed for their protection.

Post scripture proving this, if you can. The NT disputes you claim.

In Rev. 7, the intermission between the 6th and 7th seals, we see two events taking place or having taken place. Picture this intermission as the closing of the curtains on one act of a play. What goes on behind the curtain? They are rearranging the set for the next act. That is what John is doing here: the set must be ready for the next act, which is the start of the 70th week of Daniel at the 7th seal.  So two events MUST TAKE PLACE (the setting made ready) before the 7th seal.

More wishful thinking. John isn't doing anything but writing. These visions and truth come from God. God is doing everything, not John.

1. The 144,000 must be sealed for their protection

2. The Bride of Christ must be transported into heaven for safety.

In Revelation 7 we see both of these accomplished.

And finally ignoring he wealth of scripture I posted.

 

[Diaste]

On 5/31/2017 at 7:29 PM, Revelation Man said:

I don't "align myself" with anyone except the Holy Spirit, and I do not take a salary for preaching, I preach in many different places. I own three businesses and I don't need the money. Your tone sounds more akin to what Satan does to the brethren in heaven daily, The Accuser of the Brethren, not to what Jesus does daily, intercede for the Brethren.

You seem bitter and jealous bordering on petty. You don't get prophecy, maybe you are called to something else, but instead of being the arm, you want to be the arm, leg and eyes. Even Jesus realized he had to target his ministry, to the Jews ONLY, the Lost Sheep of Israel ONLY.....I UNDERSTAND MY CALLING.....

You keep uttering the same drivel....I have posted my beliefs for all to see, you just can't grasp them it seems, or you are to bust accusing the brethren like above.

So if you are off base and I tell you the truth, it is "Shameless behavior. That's probably just what the Pharisees thought about Jesus Christ, let that sink in. I am frank, not insulting. Jesus was frank likewise. I like being frank. What is insulting is your first sentence above.....I just tell the truth, I do not find you to have any understanding of prophecy, that's OK, not everyone is called to prophecy. I mean you don't understand that Rome is a Beast, and I am supposed to not just stop right there and say something is off kilter here?  And you wonder why. 

I have heard people say just about anything to justify their actions and ideas. You can make any claim you want but mean spirited words and behaviors toward those who disagree with you is unloving. 

The fact is you are insulting, not frank, with your comments, " No logical person..." "No thinking person...", etc. You have said as much to me several times. But your pride won't allow you deal with it. 

You have turned yourself into a victim in this just like so many. Cannot deal with being confronted about your behavior so you turn it around and become the victim. You have enormous issues with anyone that disagrees with you and your strategy is to engage in shaming by using comments like the above. You have repeatedly told me from the beginning I lack understanding, insight, intelligence, wisdom and knowledge. This is bullying behavior and not openness or honesty. 

You can understand your calling all you wish, wonder what God actually called you to do?

[Diaste]

On 5/31/2017 at 11:07 AM, iamlamad said:

You have just shown us things that appear similar. Earthquakes would look similar! But there is a difference between mountains moving, and mountains disappearing.

I knew you were going to say that. The concept is more important that the terms or usage. The end result is the mountains and islands are GONE. I don't care if it was said the islands  and mountains took a long leisurely stroll to the 15th dimension, they are gone! 

Guess what? Things that appear similar, are similar. It's not just the earthquakes you fixate upon. All the other similarities must be considered as well: voices, thunders, lightning, earthquake, hail. Taken together these are the same events. I don't need this much evidence in court to prove my case.

Add to this the immutable fact that the wrath of God comes with the 6th seal and the 7th trump and no other conclusion is possible. 

But again, feel free to engage in rhetoric instead of posting scriptures of proof.

 

[Diaste]

On 5/31/2017 at 9:16 AM, iamlamad said:

Rev. 6  ¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Note: every island and mountain MOVED...

Rev. 16  ¹⁸ And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

¹⁹ And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

²⁰ And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

There is a huge difference between islands and mountains moving and disappearing. These are NOT the same earthquakes.

In my humble opinion, the earthquake at the 6th seal will be caused by the dead in Christ rising, so some of the dead being dead almost 2000 years. The 7th vial earthquake is MUCH BIGGER. I believe it will be caused by the Old Testament saints rising. Some of them have been dead for close to 6000 years and some of them will come from before the flood.  Their atoms or quarks (or whatever level) that once made up their flesh and blood bodies may be scattered over thousands of miles or be a hundred miles deep. It will cause an amazing earthquake when God raises them!

How then would you find a mountain that was moved from it's place? It's not there. You look around, can't find it. Not found. Same concept as moved out of place.

I suppose then you think that Everest would just be moved over to the Congo? So then I suppose it would still be 'found'.

 Islands moved out of their places. You sail to Hawaii. Right coordinates. No island. Huh? Gone I guess. Must have ran off. Sank. On vacation. Gone.  Same concept as moved out of place.  Moved out of their place, fled away, still gone and that's the concept; gone, gone, gone.

Your opinion means little when no scripture advances your arguments.

 

[OneLight]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

While I understand people do not like some of the things I say, I'm not rearranging, it's just a search for the truth.

The truth is right in front of you.  It is the scripture you are reading, unfolded as God saw fit.  God is not the author of confusion where we need to search through every prophecy in order to understand what is being said, like putting a puzzle together in order to see the full picture.   Study is good, as long as it sticks to how scripture is given.  I have seen too many times where man tries to gather understanding and knowledge at the cost of having faith in what God has placed plainly in front of us.

The only reason I try my best to stay out of these discussion is due to the gymnastics of scripture that is required in order to follow other peoples thoughts.  I have often wondered what these peoples bibles would actually look like if they were to take each verse out of the order in context God gave and place it where they believe it should be?  How would it read?  How would man rewrite scripture in order for scripture to mirror their beliefs?

Many will take like passages and assign them to together only because they sound alike, instead of accepting that they have similarities while remaining separate.  This happens too often when it comes to prophecy.

[Diaste]

On 5/31/2017 at 5:58 AM, iamlamad said:

Ah! "Seems" is what has mixed up your thinking. "Actually" is a much better word here. Actually, no angel is given a trumpet to sound until all 7 seals are opened. This is fact, truth.

More precision is needed in your study. Scripture does not say, "No angel was given a trumpet to sound until the 7 seals were all opened." You, and so many others assume this. All we read is, "2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets." This does not mean the angels don't already have the trumpets. And you don't know if the angels already held the trumps or if John actually saw someone give them the trumps. Since some information is missing the conclusion averred above cannot withstand scrutiny.

Picture a scroll rolled up and sealed with 7 seals. The scroll cannot be opened and unrolled to read what is written inside until all seven seals are opened. So what is written INSIDE the scroll? Of course everything in Revelation from the 7th seal onward: the trumpets and the vials. In short, the liberation of planet earth from Satan being the god of this planet. If "no man" was ever found worthy, then Satan would forever stay as the god of this planet. Thank God, JESUS was found worthy!

I'm not sure this is a cogent argument for anything. If I understand you are saying that when reading a recipe in a cookbook there is no way to put clothes in the dryer, answer the door or yell at the kids?

The bowls of wrath cannot come until the kingdoms of this earth are handed over to Jesus Christ. God can (and indeed will be) angry before He returns to earth. Meaning, the Day of the Lord begins while Jesus remains in heaven. He does not even return to earth when the kingdoms of the earth are given back to Him.

Just because you sport conviction doesn't mean your thinking is correct. The wrath of God is plainly revealed in the 6th seal and the 7th trump:

Rev 6

 "17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

Rev 11

"15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, "

There is simply no reason to rearrange or even imagine a rearrangement. It is in perfect order and these events will take place, when they come, in the very order John wrote them. God was not trying to confuse us. It is a revealing, not a confusing. However, all that being said, there are parallels: events running at the same time:

I think I have posted at least a dozen reasons from scripture. You can't find any natural reasons but this is spiritual truth from scripture. Just because you don't understand how a thing can be does not make it confusing. Finding truth in God's word is like mining. You have to dig a lot to find gems.

1. The 42 months of the city of Jerusalem being trampled: showing that the man of sin enters Jerusalem just 3 1/2 days before he will enter the temple and declare he is God. Of course he will come with his Gentile armies that trample the city.

2. The 1260 days of testifying: the two witnesses show up suddenly right after the man of sin enters Jerusalem, and they show up because HE enters Jerusalem. They too show up just 3 1/2 days before the man of sin does his abomination and declares he is God - from the most holy place in the temple.

Incorrect. The witnesses prophesy in the first half of the week after the treaty is signed. 

3. The 1260 days of fleeing and protection: 3 1/2 days later, the man of sin enters the Holy of Holies in the new temple. This is an abomination. He will declare he is the long awaited Messiah of the Jews: the very God they worship. That too is an abomination. He will later place an image in this most holy place. That too will be an abomination.  The daily sacrifices will be stopped. The temple will have to be cleansed. This is the event that divides the week into two halves: while the man of sin declares he is god, the 7th trumpet will sound in heaven, marking the exact midpoint of the week.

4. 3 1/2 years of feeding and supernatural protection for those of Judea who fled into the wilderness

Um, your list is redundant.

5. The 42 months of authority given to the Beast.

More redundancy.

6. 1. John's narrative

So in this great book, we have 6 things all happening at the same time. While the Beast and false prophet are setting up their image and creating their mark, the city is being trampled, the two witnesses are testifying, those in Judea are fleeing, and being protected and supernaturally fed.

I know all 5 of these events will not start at the point in time. The 42 months of trampling and the 1260 days of testifying begin 3 1/2 days before the abomination that divides the week. The fleeing will begin perhaps a second or two after the man of sin enters the Holy of Holies in the temple. They will see this abomination.

Neither will all of these 5 events stop at the same time. The trampling of the city will end because the man of sin will leave Jerusalem (with his armies)  because he will join with the armies of the world to destroy Jerusalem.  The 1260 days of testifying will end just 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial ends the week. The 42 months of authority will continue until Jesus returns to earth with the Church, perhaps 30 days after the 7th vial that ends the week.

The first six trumpets will all be sounded before any of these 5 parallel events begin. The vials will come late in the time frame of the 5 parallel or concurrent times or late in the last half of the week. The 7th vial ends the 70th week.

Always remember: ANY theory that imagines a different chronology than what is written is immediately suspect and will be proven wrong.

You mean a different chronology than what you imagine. I notice the dearth of scripture. Prove you point with fact and stop regurgitating pretrib authors.

 

[Diaste]

18 minutes ago, OneLight said:

The truth is right in front of you.  It is the scripture you are reading, unfolded as God saw fit.  God is not the author of confusion where we need to search through every prophecy in order to understand what is being said, like putting a puzzle together in order to see the full picture.   Study is good, as long as it sticks to how scripture is given.  I have seen too many times where man tries to gather understanding and knowledge at the cost of having faith in what God has placed plainly in front of us.

The only reason I try my best to stay out of these discussion is due to the gymnastics of scripture that is required in order to follow other peoples thoughts.  I have often wondered what these peoples bibles would actually look like if they were to take each verse out of the order in context God gave and place it where they believe it should be?  How would it read?  How would man rewrite scripture in order for scripture to mirror their beliefs?

Many will take like passages and assign them to together only because they sound alike, instead of accepting that they have similarities while remaining separate.  This happens too often when it comes to prophecy.

I get what you are saying. But I don't buy it. If I did that I would have accepted Rome as the Iron Kingdom, which I do not. And I would not have found the answer to the 2nd coming, which I did. While I agree that the truth is right in front of me, usually, in the beginning, I have just scratched the surface. 

I often wondered how scripture is given. It's an interesting form to be sure. I see the narrative advance only to break and retreat to comment more specifically on the previous outline. This is one reason why I will be cautious about strict timing and chronologies.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

Ah! "Seems" is what has mixed up your thinking. "Actually" is a much better word here. Actually, no angel is given a trumpet to sound until all 7 seals are opened. This is fact, truth.

More precision is needed in your study. Scripture does not say, "No angel was given a trumpet to sound until the 7 seals were all opened." You, and so many others assume this. All we read is, "2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets." This does not mean the angels don't already have the trumpets. And you don't know if the angels already held the trumps or if John actually saw someone give them the trumps. Since some information is missing the conclusion averred above cannot withstand scrutiny.

Picture a scroll rolled up and sealed with 7 seals. The scroll cannot be opened and unrolled to read what is written inside until all seven seals are opened. So what is written INSIDE the scroll? Of course everything in Revelation from the 7th seal onward: the trumpets and the vials. In short, the liberation of planet earth from Satan being the god of this planet. If "no man" was ever found worthy, then Satan would forever stay as the god of this planet. Thank God, JESUS was found worthy!

I'm not sure this is a cogent argument for anything. If I understand you are saying that when reading a recipe in a cookbook there is no way to put clothes in the dryer, answer the door or yell at the kids?

The bowls of wrath cannot come until the kingdoms of this earth are handed over to Jesus Christ. God can (and indeed will be) angry before He returns to earth. Meaning, the Day of the Lord begins while Jesus remains in heaven. He does not even return to earth when the kingdoms of the earth are given back to Him.

Just because you sport conviction doesn't mean your thinking is correct. The wrath of God is plainly revealed in the 6th seal and the 7th trump:

Rev 6

 "17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

Rev 11

"15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, "

There is simply no reason to rearrange or even imagine a rearrangement. It is in perfect order and these events will take place, when they come, in the very order John wrote them. God was not trying to confuse us. It is a revealing, not a confusing. However, all that being said, there are parallels: events running at the same time:

I think I have posted at least a dozen reasons from scripture. You can't find any natural reasons but this is spiritual truth from scripture. Just because you don't understand how a thing can be does not make it confusing. Finding truth in God's word is like mining. You have to dig a lot to find gems.

1. The 42 months of the city of Jerusalem being trampled: showing that the man of sin enters Jerusalem just 3 1/2 days before he will enter the temple and declare he is God. Of course he will come with his Gentile armies that trample the city.

2. The 1260 days of testifying: the two witnesses show up suddenly right after the man of sin enters Jerusalem, and they show up because HE enters Jerusalem. They too show up just 3 1/2 days before the man of sin does his abomination and declares he is God - from the most holy place in the temple.

Incorrect. The witnesses prophesy in the first half of the week after the treaty is signed. 

3. The 1260 days of fleeing and protection: 3 1/2 days later, the man of sin enters the Holy of Holies in the new temple. This is an abomination. He will declare he is the long awaited Messiah of the Jews: the very God they worship. That too is an abomination. He will later place an image in this most holy place. That too will be an abomination.  The daily sacrifices will be stopped. The temple will have to be cleansed. This is the event that divides the week into two halves: while the man of sin declares he is god, the 7th trumpet will sound in heaven, marking the exact midpoint of the week.

4. 3 1/2 years of feeding and supernatural protection for those of Judea who fled into the wilderness

Um, your list is redundant.

5. The 42 months of authority given to the Beast.

More redundancy.

6. 1. John's narrative

So in this great book, we have 6 things all happening at the same time. While the Beast and false prophet are setting up their image and creating their mark, the city is being trampled, the two witnesses are testifying, those in Judea are fleeing, and being protected and supernaturally fed.

I know all 5 of these events will not start at the point in time. The 42 months of trampling and the 1260 days of testifying begin 3 1/2 days before the abomination that divides the week. The fleeing will begin perhaps a second or two after the man of sin enters the Holy of Holies in the temple. They will see this abomination.

Neither will all of these 5 events stop at the same time. The trampling of the city will end because the man of sin will leave Jerusalem (with his armies)  because he will join with the armies of the world to destroy Jerusalem.  The 1260 days of testifying will end just 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial ends the week. The 42 months of authority will continue until Jesus returns to earth with the Church, perhaps 30 days after the 7th vial that ends the week.

The first six trumpets will all be sounded before any of these 5 parallel events begin. The vials will come late in the time frame of the 5 parallel or concurrent times or late in the last half of the week. The 7th vial ends the 70th week.

Always remember: ANY theory that imagines a different chronology than what is written is immediately suspect and will be proven wrong.

You mean a different chronology than what you imagine. I notice the dearth of scripture. Prove you point with fact and stop regurgitating pretrib authors.

So you imagine that an angel finds his own trumpet and sounds it some other time?  "to them were given seven trumpets"  I take this to mean exactly what it says: a moment before this they did not have their trumpets to sound, but at this moment in time they were each given a trumpet. So I still say, no trumpet (of this series of 7 trumpets John writes of) will be sounded until all 7 seals are broken. Remember, God did not cause John to write this to confuse us: it is a revealing.

Scrolls: if a scroll is rolled up and sealed with seven seals, there is NO WAY to read what is written inside until the seals are broken.  They had no printing presses then, and no way to construct a "book" as we know a book. But we do know they used scrolls. Now, if you have x-ray vision and can read inside the scroll without breaking the seals, then you are very special. No one back in John's day could do that. For them the seals had to be broken to open the scroll.

Perhaps you miss this key point: John does not say it, but it is true anyway: what we read in Rev. 8 after the 7th seal is broken is what was written INSIDE the scroll.

I agree God is angry at the 6th seal. But does he at that time have authority to destroy the earth - while it is not yet His to destroy?

"I think I have posted at least a dozen reasons from scripture. "  What? Reasons to rearrange?

"Incorrect. The witnesses prophesy in the first half of the week after the treaty is signed. " Not true. You are missing the intent of the Author. Every mention of the 3 1/2 years (whether given in days or months are times) is about events that will start at or near the midpoint and go to the end of the week. Don't doubt me on this! It is truth. I at first imagined they testified in the first half of the week also. I was mistaken then.

NOT redundancy. Parellelism

I mean a different chronology that John wrote. Period. If someone finds a need to rearrange, their theory will be proven wrong. That is pretty simple, but true.

It is WRITTEN in a given order - so why just copy and paste? You can read it as it is written. Now, if you imagine John mixed up the order, and you can prove it with scripture, by all means show us.

Edited June 3, 2017 by iamlamad