Before I built a wall I'd ask to know

[FresnoJoe]

1 hour ago, Neighbor said:

My part. To build a wall....
I have gone back and forth on the issue myself....

At the end...
I find no justification for building a wall....

To

The day for building your walls will come, the day for extending your boundaries. Micah 7:11 (New International Version)

The signature crimes of the most violent drug cartel in Mexico are its beheading and dismemberment of rival gang members, military personnel, law enforcement officers and public officials, and the random kidnappings and killings of civilians who get caught in its butchery and bloodletting.

But this disparate band of criminals known as Los Zetas is no longer just a concern in Mexico. It has expanded its deadly operations across the southwestern border, establishing footholds and alliances in states from New York to California. Just last year, federal agents tied a cocaine operation in Baltimore to the Zetas.

“Those of us who live and work along the border know they’re already here,” said Zapata County Sheriff Sigifredo Gonzalez Jr., whose Texas county lies on the Rio Grande 50 miles southeast of the Zetas’ stronghold of Nuevo Laredo. “There’s already been killings and many residents here are living in fear.”

Sheriff Gonzalez, whose Texas Border Sheriff’s Coalition sought help from the federal government to control growing violence along the border, said the rising brutality of Mexican drug gangs, particularly the Zetas, “never stops shocking me.”

Trained as an elite band of Mexican anti-drug commandos, the Zetas evolved into mercenaries for the infamous Gulf Cartel, bringing a new wave of brutality to Mexico’s escalating drug wars. Bolstered by an influx of assassins, bandits, thieves, thugs and corrupt federal, state and local police officers, the Zetas have since evolved into a well-financed and heavily armed drug smuggling force of their own.

Known for mounting the severed heads of their rivals on poles or hanging their dismembered bodies from bridges in cities throughout Mexico, the Zetas have easily become the most feared criminal gang in Mexico — where 35,000 people have been killed in a continuing drug war. Everyone is a potential victim: men, women and children. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/apr/19/violent-mexican-drug-gang-expands-into-us/

To Save A Life

The city officials did not know I had been out there or what I was doing, for I had not yet said anything to anyone about my plans. I had not yet spoken to the Jewish leaders—the priests, the nobles, the officials, or anyone else in the administration. But now I said to them, “You know very well what trouble we are in. Jerusalem lies in ruins, and its gates have been destroyed by fire. Let us rebuild the wall of Jerusalem and end this disgrace!” Nehemiah 2:16-17 ( New Living Translation)

Migrant deaths along the Mexico–U.S. border occur hundreds of times a year because of those attempting to cross into the United States from Mexico illegally. The number of deaths reported in US Federal fiscal year 2015 (ending 30 Sept) was 240, which was the lowest number in at least 18 years, and less than half the 492 deaths reported in 2005. Exposure (including heat stroke, dehydration, and hyperthermia) were the leading cause.

Pro human rights groups maintain that since 1994, more than 11,000 people have died from dehydration in their attempt to cross the increasingly militarized border. According to the United States Border Patrol, 1,954 people died crossing the U.S–Mexico border between the years 1998–2004. In the fiscal year ending September 29, 2004, 460 migrants died crossing the U.S.–Mexico border. In 2005, more than 500 died across the entire U.S.–Mexico border. The number of yearly border crossing deaths has doubled since 1995. In 2009, 417 deaths were reported across the border. Yet the statistics cited by scholars and the media are only the number of known deaths and do not include those who have never been found, underestimating the actual number of migrants that have died attempting unauthorized border crossings.

Mexico's Secretariat of Foreign Affairs has compiled data including deaths on the Mexican side of the border area during the period from 1994 to 2000. The data shows 87 deaths in 1996, 149 in 1997, 329 in 1998, 358 in 1999, and 499 in 2000. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migrant_deaths_along_the_Mexico–United_States_border

Mr. Trump, Build That Wall~!

The people of the land have practiced extortion and committed robbery. They have oppressed the poor and needy, and have extorted from the sojourner without justice. And I sought for a man among them who should build up the wall and stand in the breach before me for the land, that I should not destroy it, but I found none.

Therefore I have poured out my indignation upon them. I have consumed them with the fire of my wrath. I have returned their way upon their heads, declares the Lord God.” Ezekiel 22:29-31 (English Standard Version)

His wife, Araceli Valencia, was mopping the kitchen in their family home on a typical warm spring morning in Phoenix, Arizona, "when she suddenly felt a hard object pointed to the back of her head and a voice in Spanish tell her not to move," according to a Phoenix, Arizona, police investigative report.

"I told you not to look at me!" Valencia heard one of the kidnappers bark as he struck Andrade across the head.

Her four children bawling, Valencia was hustled into a bedroom where an armed man fondled her and threatened to rape her if she didn't tell him where Andrade hid his money, according to the report.

After beating and binding Andrade, one of the kidnappers put a gun to Valencia's head. His message: We're taking your husband and SUV. We'll be watching your house. If you call the cops, he's a dead man. http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/05/19/phoenix.drug.kidnappings/index.html?eref=rss_us

~

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27 (King James Bible)

Love, Your Brother Joe

~

Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalms 119:160 (King James Bible)

The Bible contains the mind of God, the state of man, the way of salvation, the doom of sinners, and the happiness of believers. Its doctrines are holy, its precepts are binding, its histories are true, and its decisions are immutable.

Read it to be wise, believe it to be safe, and practice it to be holy. It contains light to direct you, food to support you, and comfort to cheer you.

It is the traveler’s map, the pilgrim’s staff, the pilot’s compass, the soldier’s sword and the Christian’s charter. Here too, Heaven is opened and the gates of Hell disclosed.

Christ is its grand subject, our good its design, and the glory of God its end. It should fill the memory, rule the heart and guide the feet. Read it slowly, frequently and prayerfully.  It is a mine of wealth, a paradise of glory, and a river of pleasure.

It is given you in life, will be opened at the judgment, and be remembered forever. It involves the highest responsibility, rewards the greatest labor, and will condemn all who trifle with its sacred contents.

From The Inside Of My Gideon New Testament

[FresnoJoe]

1 hour ago, Neighbor said:

I knew a lady a wonderful Christian lady that  was led by the Holy Spirit to sell her home on the hill called Palos Verdes and buy  down on the flatland right at Santa Anita race track Santa Monica. The home waiting for her to buy had an open patio enclosure. She bought it and turned the lights on at night and waited.

They came, the hungry, the poorest of poor, the wanderers. She fed them and gave them cool water, and then clothes, and then she went to their hot sheets apartments with  up to 17 people per apartment living in them, and she brought yet more food and Bibles, all the time sharing of her Lord Jesus. Many of us were so stunned that we too were led to provide her some personal support, bringing food to her plus clothes and Bibles. Some also ventured  into those awful dwellings of the very poor, though it was scary. It is scary just to  know how poor some are, as they try to make a life for themselves and their young. And they find Jesus in that Lady, they find Jesus.

Course with a great beautiful and free wall we won't have that burden anymore. It will be grand. Maybe, but I think  the likes of that Christian lady to be far grander than any builders wall.

I will place my confidence in people that get the call to move in the name of Jesus to help the poor, and  not so much  in those that will protect the more affluent by walling out  the poor from any opportunity to do even the humble work  that is still to be found here.

Amen~! Where God Guilds

Now Elijah the Tishbite, of Tishbe in Gilead, said to Ahab, “As the Lord, the God of Israel, lives, before whom I stand, there shall be neither dew nor rain these years, except by my word.” And the word of the Lord came to him: “Depart from here and turn eastward and hide yourself by the brook Cherith, which is east of the Jordan. 1 Kings 17:1-3 (English Standard Version)

God Provides

The ravens brought him bread and meat in the morning and bread and meat in the evening, and he drank from the brook. 1 Kings 17:6 (New International Version)

Love, Your Brother Joe

[Jewels7]

Heck, we should just annex Mexico and save a fortune on the wall. Put that money into infrastructure and have Mexico pay us tariffs etc.... for the privilege of being added as a U.S. holding.  

 

 

[Neighbor]

14 hours ago, Jewels7 said:

Heck, we should just annex Mexico and save a fortune on the wall. Put that money into infrastructure and have Mexico pay us tariffs etc.... for the privilege of being added as a U.S. holding.  

 

 

 A big thumbs up to that one!

 

I do appreciate the thoughts opinions and criticisms of all that have  given responses to date. Thanks.

This is a subject  on which my own mind wobbles or changes, and has more than once.

For I did feel the pressure of being  an outcast in an Italian ghetto for seven years, my family broke free of it and I landed at a bit of a kid paradise, literally right under the mouse eyes of the then new Disneyland. And, eventually  lived next to  a 535 acre field of crops tended by  immigrants for years.

I also listened to the hundreds of C130's bring in the Vietnamese refugees.

I learned in business to sell in multiple languages and cultures of the lower Los Angeles County including the LA Harbor.

I dealt with the rotation of the ghettos there, having to keep up with who was displacing whom in what area so we could make our sales presentations, and in the right languages.

It was grand fun really. The many cultures languages and people. Basically I think  I have had the experience to say that I have seen much over the decades having to do with immigration. I even have experienced the loss suffered by  companies having to leave California and go to Mexico because of California and USA regulations, on a personal level.

And in late life I have known  a few employees  that I supervised that were of other lands, from Eastern Europe to Central America. Every one of them, absolutely every one, were  great personalities, and hard working individuals.

I think I do understand the  reasoning  of mayors for their declaring their cities to be sanctuaries. It is more than  trying to get an illegal vote, it is because  these people are victims of horrible crimes and  if they cannot go to the police the crimes extend to all the population.

 Despite that there is  within me that which wants a wall that works, to keep others out of here! The key is a wall that works- But no wall has ever worked  not against an enemy, only against a passive  man will a wall work. When oppression at a place makes life unbearable no wall will contain him in nor keep him out either.

We can all quote Bible history, but do we forget recent times by comparison.  Do we not remember Berlin? Do we not see the Gaza strip nor the  walls of Israel being tunneled under, breached by criminal/terrorists and plain workers alike?

 I absolutely  believe we need control of our land, not our borders so much, but our land, the entire breadth of it. That is why I think a wall to be a folly. The wall will eat up resources and fail, to protect the inner regions of the land. While close control throughout the land of it's occupants will provide information to make better decisions of workforces and entitlement programs. Yet even I resist closer control, out of some abstract fear that it brings on an antichrist atmosphere. Yet nothing is going to stop the coming of the antichrist anymore than anything is going to stop our Lord Jesus from return.

 

We,  Christian Brothers and sisters, should be able to rise above our fears, to instead work  for the glory of our Lord in all matters.  I just don't see the wall honoring nor bringing glory to Him, no matter how it is done. That is I think why the poem of Robert Frost titled Mending Wall comes to mind, and I wonder yet again it's message. There is conflict in that message. No argeement is found there, but instead a resolution to work with neighbor, rebuilding the same wall year after year after year. It is a fruitless exercise, but one which  opponent and proponent do each year anyway.

Will we be  much like the men  of property  in the poem each working from his own side of the wall, rebuilding it endlessly and declaring good walls make for good neighbors? Seems a shame filled pity to me if that is where we are headed. For it is no good solution it is - just a fruitless exercise.

https://www.poets.org/poetsorg/poem/mending-wall

 

[Churchmouse]

11 minutes ago, Neighbor said:

 A big thumbs up to that one!

 

I do appreciate the thoughts opinions and criticisms of all that have  given responses to date. Thanks.

This is a subject  on which my own mind warbles or changes, and has more than once.

For I did feel the pressure of being  an outcast in an Italian ghetto for seven years, my family broke free of it and I landed at a bit of a kid paradise, literally right under the mouse eyes of the then new Disneyland. And, eventually  lived next to  a 535 acre field of crops tended by  immigrants for years.

I also listened to the hundreds of C131's bring in the Vietnamese refugees.

I learned in business to sell in multiple languages and cultures of the lower Los Angele s County including the LA Harbor.

I dealt with the rotation of the ghettos there, having to keep up with who was displacing whom in what area so we could make our sales presentations, and in the right languages.

It was grand fun really. The many cultures languages and people. Basically I think  I have had the experience to say that I have seen much over the decades having to do with immigration. I even have experienced the loss suffered by  companies having to leave California and go to Mexico because of California and USA regulations, on a personal level.

And in late life I have known  a few employees  that I supervised that were of other lands, from Eastern Europe to Central America. Every one of them, absolutely every one, were  great personalities, and hard working individuals.

I think I do understand the  reasoning  of mayors for their declaring their cities to be sanctuaries. It is more than  trying to get an illegal vote, it is because  these people are victims of horrible crimes and  if they cannot go to the police the crimes extend to all the population.

 Despite that there is  within me that which wants a wall that works, to keep others out of here! The key is a wall that works- But no wall has ever worked  not against an enemy, only against the common and passive  man will a wall work. When oppression at a place makes life unbearable no wall will contain him in nor keep him out either.

We can all quote Bible history, but do we forget recent times by comparison.  Do we not remember Berlin? Do we not see the Gaza strip nor the  walls of Israel being tunneled under, breached by criminal/terrorists and plain workers alike?

 I absolutely  believe we need control of our land, not our borders so much, but our land, the entire breadth of it. That is why I think a wall to be a folly. The wall will eat up resources and fail, to protect the inner regions of the land. While close control throughout the land of it's occupants will provide information to make better decisions of workforces and entitlement programs. Yet even I resist closer control, out of some abstract fear that it brings on an antichrist atmosphere. Yet nothing is going to stop the coming of the antichrist anymore than anything is going to stop our Lord Jesus from return.

 

We,  Christian Brothers and sisters, should be able to rise above our fears, to instead work  for the glory of our Lord in all matters.  I just don't see the wall honoring nor bringing glory to Him, no matter how it is done. That is I think why the poem of Robert Frost titled Mending Wall comes to mind, and I wonder yet again it's message. There is conflict in that message. No argeement is found there, but instead a resolution to work with neighbor, rebuilding the same wall year after year after year. It is a fruitless expercise, but one which  opponent and proponent do each year anyway.

Will we be  much like the men  of property  in the poem each working from his own side of the wall, rebuilding it endlessly and declaring good walls make for good neighbors? Seems a shame filled pity to me if that is where we are headed. For it is no good solution it is just a fruitless exercise.

https://www.poets.org/poetsorg/poem/mending-wall

 

I've set here and listened to this touchy feely sort of emotionalism and this outright special pleading to abuse Christian charity while outright ignoring the teaching of the Bible in which Christianity is based on long enough. I posted in this thread a response to this which puts into light just exactly what the Bible states on the honoring and obeying the National government because it would not be without God's approval and you haven't responded to that. You've completely ignored that and continue to call upon Christian's to sidestep Biblical teachings. If you don't respond I will report you  as a false teacher.

Are you suggesting we should simply ignore the Bible in the parts you are not comfortable with for political reasons? Are you saying you know better than he how to run reality?

[Neighbor]

If it pleases you and satisfies some sense of outrage within you, make your report.

I have thanked all for their comments.

I will continue to not respond to individuals with argument for arguments sake, but  have  and will continue to happily read  of  experiences and of statical facts and histories posted by all the  individuals kind enough to respond.

Know that I do enjoy the input of everyone whether it be their  opinion, touchy feely or terse and gruff, and that I also enjoy facts, statistics, and histories, extra biblical events, etc.. It shows me an interest in the subject by others.

I do thank all. And thanks for giving me opportunity  to again share of my appreciation.

But don't forget to make your report if you "feel" the need.

[Churchmouse]

20 minutes ago, Neighbor said:

If it pleases you and satisfies some sense of outrage within you, make your report.

I have thanked all for their comments.

I will continue to not respond to individuals with argument for arguments sake, but  have  and will continue to happily read  of  experiences and of statical facts and histories posted by all the  individuals kind enough to respond.

Know that I do enjoy the input of everyone whether it be their  opinion, touchy feely or terse and gruff, and that I also enjoy facts, statistics, and histories, extra biblical events, etc.. It shows me an interest in the subject by others.

I do thank all. And thanks for giving me opportunity  to again share of my appreciation.

But don't forget to make your report if you "feel" the need.

You call this and argument for arguments sake.

Quote

 

 I don't know why you started that off with your expectations of being able to speak as if you would somehow be stopped by someone. We aren't the one's who try to censor people or force PC down others throats. Have you ever not been able to express your opinion here?

There is no reason to think that money drained from our shores will return to us in trade.

This has nothing to do with us being Christian.  We are not here to welcome people who break the laws of a country that in the Bible says we need to honor and uphold. We are here to bring people into our Christian fold, but that is separate from the secular world. The issue is if these people break the laws of this country, then they have failed to conform with the teachings of the Bible and If they reject those, then they reject God's word.  Christians are representing Christ and need to reflect that in everything they do. I've never read anything that would lead me to believe that he did anything against the governing authority in the land.

We are not aliens in any way, shape or form in the country we are legal in. We hold residence here and follow the rules set down by that government, up until it counters God's laws and then we are to follow God. This wall breaches none of that.

 

This goes to Biblical teachings which you have ignored and sidestepped. I've asked you twice to respond to that and you've ignored that.

Edited March 13, 2017 by Churchmouse

[Neighbor]

59 minutes ago, Churchmouse said:

You call this and argument for arguments sake.

This goes to Biblical teachings which you have ignored and sidestepped. I've asked you twice to respond to that and you've ignored that.

Haven't ignored you. Just have no interest in argument.  

If you want to be the good guy and have need of me being the bad guy for us  having different  conclusions on the merits of a wall, that's okay by me. I'm the bad guy.

Now, do I get to to wear a really nice quality black cowboy hat?  

I really do appreciate all the thoughts expressed by everyone that has taken time to do so. 

Where is the physical wall that has been a success in keeping people in and holding people out without fail for a serious period of time? Do not all walls get shook down, or if left standing become the very vehicle of defeat of the wall builders?

Yes, we can see a great wall from space, but it was the vehicle of defeat for it's builders when it's  "road" became the road used by the enemies of it's builder to gain entry to the centers of population. More recently the  Berlin wall was flown over, tunneled under, and just forced through, until it's embarrassment to it's builders, along with it's failure, made the builders tear down that wall.

 Physical walls for protection are folly is my conclusion. The wall  of the great city to come has gates  that remain open by day, they never close for there is no night. The only wall that works is not a physical wall, it is spiritually based, and is the wall that goes through the entirety  of the width of that which it is to protect- that is the wall of knowledge of the word of God and is the armor with which we are to gird ourselves.

If Christians come to see themselves as aliens in this world, what then do they have to do with building walls that try to separate mankind into camps of discontent without Christ Jesus as Lord? Are we not commanded to be the wall breachers that are to go into all the world despite the world's hatred of our Lord and hatred of His servant sharing  His gospel?

Put up that great beautiful wall, and then try to go share of Jesus in the lands walled against. Who is going to listen about Jesus' gospel from a wall builder?

 

[other one]

1 hour ago, Churchmouse said:

I've set here and listened to this touchy feely sort of emotionalism and this outright special pleading to abuse Christian charity while outright ignoring the teaching of the Bible in which Christianity is based on long enough. I posted in this thread a response to this which puts into light just exactly what the Bible states on the honoring and obeying the National government because it would not be without God's approval and you haven't responded to that. You've completely ignored that and continue to call upon Christian's to sidestep Biblical teachings. If you don't respond I will report you  as a false teacher.

Are you suggesting we should simply ignore the Bible in the parts you are not comfortable with for political reasons? Are you saying you know better than he how to run reality?

I'll answer your question. Our government is of the Constitution of the United States.  It is the governing authority of the US, and any one or anything that goes against it  is an enemy of the state and we are obliged to stand against it......  be that a foreign government, or people within our own country or even working for our government.  That includes the president and anyone else that fails to follow it. Even a so called religion that teaches it's overthrow must be put down.....

God blessed this country with its form of government and it is the God given duty for everyone to uphold and protect the constitution. .

[Neighbor]

2 hours ago, other one said:

I'll answer your question. Our government is of the Constitution of the United States.  It is the governing authority of the US, and any one or anything that goes against it  is an enemy of the state and we are obliged to stand against it......  be that a foreign government, or people within our own country or even working for our government.  That includes the president and anyone else that fails to follow it. Even a so called religion that teaches it's overthrow must be put down.....

God blessed this country with its form of government and it is the God given duty for everyone to uphold and protect the constitution. .

Good response IMO, but I do  find enemy of the State to be a scary term. And perhaps an over reach. it is often used n history as the rationale for crushing freedom, both freedom of majorities and minorities. Seems to me the people stand on more authority than does the State in this particular form of Republic.

But to the point.least my point. I am not against Law  I am agains tbeing stupid in application of it. And to me spending billions of dollars on a wall to satisfy our emotions is  well just plain irrational stupidity. We need protection, we need rational immigration we need have evenidentification of our citixens, though thatis scary too. The wall does none of that , it just feeds a hatred on both sides of th ewall,and solves no problem.But i imagine it will be big really big and beautiful in a gold veined tower kind of way. Maybe it will have an idol or at least an icon or two within it. Least a gold plated bronze plaque inscribed 
 

"To The Donald,

May his will always Trump any other.

Maybe have it mounted on a giant capital T,  but even then it will be folly; for  while the plaque is being mounted the tunnels will be underway and the drones carrying drugs will be flying over it.

We need a thick wall one of the armor of God running all through the land, not just  a wall around part of the edge of it. We need have God change the hearts of the peope of th eland. The we will prosper and serve Him in  a manner that does bring Glory to Him.

BUT  I do so appreciate the contrary expressions of others! I do consider them. I once held them myself, and may yet again. But I kinda doubt it. I become more and more convicted that we are on a very wrong path, despite my  political leanings and recent support including even financial support for the prevailing presidential candidate of the Republican party. I do pray  he comes to a better solution than a wall. And that solution gets endorsed by  our citizens from shore to  shore. Plus that it honors and glorifies God, for we are to do all things that we do to the glory of God

Let's always pray first think, read our Bibles and pray again before we put one foot forward to any so called solution as a wall. or for any other solution for that matter. Who knows maybe I will be one among many contributing to a giant plaque praising the building of the wall- if led to do so.