In heaven during 1,000 year reign?

[Daniel 11:36]

"The Bible simply does not say that God will take the church to heaven and when things get tough; when disasters and huge world changes come, we are told we must endure and stand firm in our faith.  Will you?"

 

It certainly does say that today's believers will escape the tribulation period .... those who become believers after it starts will be a different matter altogether

You need to get your record straight

Here is the pre-tribulation portion of those who believe in Jesus Christ [ 1 Corinthians 15:20-23; 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Thessalonians 5:1-9; Matthew 25:1-13 [those who believe]; Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12; 13:5; 17:14, 18:4; 19:14; 20:1-4 [those on already on thrones]

Your rendition lacks consistency and is taking you away from Biblical truth

When the day comes as Paul tells [Romans 11:25] .... all of the Gentiles including those believers of the past will be made immortal and then will the tribulation begin

There will be no believers at first, but some will become believers during the tribulation

 Believe what you want, but this is the way it will be

Your thinking is skewed and I would suggest that you change your course [2 Thessalonians 2:1-8] .... 2:1 is the first thing that will happen .... and then the Lord will bring His tribulation period in which a portion of Israel will believe in Him [Revelation 6:12-17]

Your idea that the "church" is Israel based upon one scripture of the Bible is false ..... Paul is speaking to some of those of Israel .... not those of the Gentiles

If you are a Gentile you had better redirect your thinking .... if not you might just end up in the tribulation period

The idea that you carry about being an Israelite is false and this thinking has lead you into your position 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

10 hours ago, n2thelight said:

Sooooo this rapture can't happen,say like this month right?

At any point of time up until the one 'seven' begins, we are at least three and a half years away from THE Rapture: which IS in the Bible.

The Rapture, not this rapture, is the gathering of those who survive but without it otherwise wouldn't; the Great Tribulation - not the trib or tribe, or tribulation period.

The Great Tribulation is a specific and unique time, never before has anything been like it, nor will it ever be repeated or surpassed.  That's how Jesus put it.  That makes it unique; like creation, the Flood, or the Cross.

The Great Tribulation as defined by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse of Matthew 24:15-29 starts with the (midpoint) abomination(s) desolation/desolator from Daniel (9:27); would otherwise completely eliminate the Elect - who in the New Testament when referring to people; always refers to Christians - but that time is shortened by the arrival of the Day of the Lord, lest all life - and that is all life that is applicable because the wicked are under no threat of losing theirs having taken the mark of the beast and worshipped it; i.e., the Elect is "all life" - perish.

• SOME (few) Christians will live to see Jesus Return with the scrolling of the sky.
• Others newly converted people from around the world, by the Gospel spread by the first of three Angels will also come to believe and so be included.
• After the 144,000 are mustered,
• And after the Dead in Christ are called forth with the Last Trumpet,
• Jesus will come with that Great Multitude of Saints and gather up those who remain and are still alive (Paul's words).  That is the Rapture.  Joined together with the former, all will be delivered to the barn of Heaven as the Great Multitude of the sixth Seal.  This Harvest is also depicted in the detailed parallel account of just the one 'seven' in Revelation chapters 13-16, specifically: 14:14-16.

So before you lump "all rapture believers" as a pejorative term for what is in the Bible, perhaps you might understand that not all Pre-Millennialists are also Pre-Trib.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

13 hours ago, Keras said:

The Bible simply does not say that God will take the church to heaven and when things get tough;

No, it says that if the Day of the Lord did not come at the time known only by the Father, all life, and that is all applicable life with the Elect; true Christians - would perish.  But Jesus will gather up the Elect from the earth; stealing the most precious thing in the world from the clutches of Satan and his minions.

It also says of the Great Multitude in Heaven that they come out of the same Great Tribulation.

So your word test is false.  We are allowed to be warred against, oppressed, and even exterminated to the point of extinction - YET we will be taken to Heaven.

He who tries to save his life will be lost; he who loses his life for Christ's sake will live eternally.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

1 hour ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

It certainly does say that today's believers will escape the tribulation period .... those who become believers after it starts will be a different matter altogether

Be careful.

I do not agree with you here, where we split on our eschatology.

We must be prepared for a time of Great Tribulation.  My job is to see that my wife has enough "oil" to light her lamp without "buying" any of it.

And should you find yourself and your family in it, remember Jesus' Words:

So if they say to you, ˜Behold, He is in the wilderness, do not go out, or, ˜Behold, He is in the inner rooms, do not believe them.  (Mt 24:26) But rather:

For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. (Mt 16:25)

When the time comes and you are put to the Daniel test of worship of die; God will watch over you: tereo ek from Rev 3:10.
If you are starving, and your family is wasting away, do not think you can take the mark of the beast and buy some food and still be saved when the Last Trumpet sounds.

hupomone: endure patiently.  Those that die a martyr's death receive a crown. 

[Daniel 11:36]

Sorry .... I disagree

And Matthew 24:6 relates to Israel in the tribulation period .... today's believers will already be made immortal

There will be tribulation saints, but after the pre-tribulation change to immortality

Most of these will be killed for their faith and some will survive

The 70th week is still pending .... all of it, and more

[Marcus O'Reillius]

If we are to separate out the fifth Discourse of Matthew, as not relating to us, then by what measure can we disregard the rest?

Israel has her own problems with the Lord... but as the Elect, we are specifically named in the Olivet Discourse, which centers not on how the Temple will be torn down, but when He will come again.

And all the parables between that and the separation of the sheep and goats (good fish and bad separation) of Mt 25 - apply to us as well.

1 hour ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

There will be tribulation saints,

This is only a statement I find Pre-Trib students saying.

I find no veracity for a separate class of people such as this.  Matthew uses "Elect" to convey what Jesus said in the Aramaic.  That usage, some twenty years after the fact, reflects all that transpired among the earliest of Messianic Jews, who are the nexus of The Church, who witnessed Gentiles receive the same Holy Spirit they experienced at the Festival of Firstfruits, or Pentecost.

And Elect, as used in the New Testament for a people, is always in reference to those who believe in Christ Jesus.  That is a fact.

Ergo, there is no separation required for who is being addressed in the Olivet Discourse - the fifth of such discourses which are the theme of Matthew's book - and all of them are applicable to us: the Elect.

[Daniel 11:36]

The Christian today is not referred to in the Lord's ollivete discourse anywhere .... the elect are of Israel

The "elect" stated in the discourse are of Israel during the coming tribulation period 

So you and I have a very different point of view 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

2 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

The Christian today is not referred to in the Lord's ollivete discourse anywhere .... the elect are of Israel

Oh Really?

The NIV sometimes chooses elect over chosen in the translation and vise versa; the meaning is generally the same.  It is recognized by this author that the NASB has a better word-for-word translation but the NIV is used for its ease in general reading.  The cited references in the NIV are the same in the NASB though.  The underlying Greek does not change regardless of the version.  Other mentions of elect and choice in the Bible usually refer to ekloge which has the same root meaning.  However the passage in question in the Synoptic Gospel accounts has elect as eklektos.  So, with the exception of the relevant Olivet Discourse end-time passages in question, the passages for just eklektos in the NT are presented here for analysis.  The NASB translation is shown in parentheses for comparison. 

 

Chosen:

^{MT 22:14} "For many are invited, but few are chosen." (chosen)

^{LK 18: 7} And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? (elect)

^{LK 23:35} …if he is the Christ of God, the Chosen One" (Chosen One)

^{ROM 8:33} Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? (elect)

^{RO 16:13} Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord, (choice man)

^{COL 3:12} Therefore, as God's chosen people (chosen)

^{1PE 2:4} As you come to him, the living Stone--rejected by men but chosen by God (choice and precious in the sight of)

^{1PE 2:6} "See, I lay a stone in Zion,

    a chosen and precious cornerstone,  (choice stone)

^{1PE 2:9} But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, (chosen)

^{2JN 1:1} To the chosen lady and her children, (chosen)

^{2JN 1:13} The children of your chosen sister send their greetings (chosen)

^{REV 17:14} -and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers." (chosen)

 

Elect:

^{1TI 5:21} Christ Jesus and the elect angels, (chosen)

^{2TI 2:10} for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, (chosen)

^{1PE 1:1} To God's elect, strangers in the world, (chosen)

 

            First of all, eklektos is used for aspects of God.  Jesus is described as eklektos in Luke and 1^st Peter and that word is repeated in quoting OT Scripture.  God’s angels are correspondingly called eklektos in Paul’s first letter to Timothy.  So like Saint, this word conveyed upon the believer also describes Jesus and other Heavenly beings.  Likewise too, when so many question their salvation because of sin in their life, it is difficult for the average lay Christian to take title to as being chosen by God over unrepentant sinners. 

 

            The second aspect to be gleamed here by this compilation of verses is that those that believe in God are choice rendered as a noun or adjective.  The first reading of Matthew 22:14 seems to point that God does the choosing.  That would imply the definition of chosen as a verb.  If Matthew had wanted to indicate that, then he would have been used the verb eklegomai.  However, the word here is eklektos which is a noun or an adjective, not a verb.  To say Saints are chosen must understand that chosen is also a noun in the English.  This then describes Saints as being ‘the selection’ of God as chosen is defined in the English as a noun.  This conforms to Bromiley’s definition of the Greek word in translation as well.

 

In the first sense of Matthew 22:14; this summation is given as the conclusion of the parable of the wedding.  This has strong overtones to the salvation that is to come with the rapture and indicates in a future sense that God’s salvation will extend past the physical nation of Israel who do not heed Christ’s call.  While the gospel message is preached to all, not all will believe.  Likewise, all are invited (hearing the Gospel) but not all will be the selected of God, (because they become righteous by faith).  In addition, only those that are properly attired, carrying the sense into another eschatological vision, those who have washed their robes clean in the blood of Christ; are admitted to the wedding banquet.

 

            The basis for the theological argument for predestination starts in Romans 8:29.  Paul’s introduction of the word chosen in verse 8:33 seems to confirm that.  While beyond the scope of this book, the idea that God knows who will become His could be entirely satisfied when a distinction is made between viewing time as linear in Man’s observation to the possible view God could have.  (This concept is covered in the next chapter under the section called Observer True Point of View.)  While each person has a willful choice to make, none can know the choices they will make in the future.  God, not bound by our confining present, knows who will choose Him and remain faithful.  We are chosen (in the sense of eklektos, being a noun or an adjective) not so much by our choosing, (as in the verb form of the word group: eklegomai) but (to use some definitions of eklektos provided by Bromiley) that we are consecrated (adj.) by justification through Christ, and so become Holy, as in sacred or pure, or choice as in being desirable by God.  God certainly chooses (verb) the righteous over the wicked to enjoy life, but this in no way dictates that God limits who has the ability to willfully choose for Him. 

 

Of course, specific instances in the Bible do seem to support a theology of strict predestination.  Addressing those passages where God does “harden” a person’s heart does not necessarily mean He determines their ultimate fate.  It could mean for those people God does harden that He only reinforces their natural disposition.  In this case, He knows that they would never choose to worship Him short of forced worship, which is within God’s ability but outside of His character.  God desires willful worship.  God’s hardening which results in their choosing against righteousness could serve in God’s plan.  It might be to bring about a larger change for others or to make sweeter the election of those that do choose Him.  

 

Viewing the difference in timeline perspectives preserves the theological idea of free will without limiting God’s capability to bring His plan to fulfillment.  Thus, the exercise of will, which does not go so far as to say God is not in control -but only pertains to an individual’s choice, balances with God’s ability to act so that both exist simultaneously.  This removes God’s perfect knowledge as being an agent which predestines each individual in an absolute sense and dispels the criticism that the individual has no role in decision making and thus allows them to lays the blame for their lack of salvation back on God.

 

Thus in the second sense from Matthew 22:14, eklektos refers to choice as in the sense of the word as a noun.  Peter’s reference in 1^st Peter chapter 2 verses 4 and 9 likewise does not mean God chooses (verb), and thus these verses need not dictate a fatalistic world view for the individual.  The election of God’s people, being select and prized is accurately conveyed with this word for those invited into Heaven as they are a cut above when compared to those who are to receive God’s judgment.

 

The third sense of eklektos is not as hard as the second.  In John’s letters, this becomes a title of address.  In Paul’s letter to the Romans verse 16:13, it is an attribute again given to a person.  From what can be attributed individually is then done for all.  In Peter’s opening address to the Christians in Asia Minor in 1Pe 1:1, this term is used and then reinforced in 1Pe 2:11 where again the term ‘strangers in the world’ is used to define the Church as Peter encourages them to abstain from sin.  Paul carries this same overall address in 2^nd Timothy and eklektos now is defined as those who obtain the Salvation of Christ and can receive the heavenly glory.  Finally, in Revelation, being elect is part of the characteristics of Christ’s army also being termed: called, and faithful.

 

So covering eklektos as it is used in the New Testament leads to an understanding of the word as having a dual application to the heavenly as well as to man.  It reflects an elevation for the righteous as viewed by God, and it applies to the Church from the individual to all and goes beyond this world into the next.  This then supports this same definition of eklektos as a synonym for the Church to describe the Church in Matthew and Mark’s coverage of Jesus’ Olivet Discourse.

 

To understand who the elect are and make a definitive definition, these are those who are the select of God.  This would include all those from the OT who are Saints, as well as the NT Church which are also called Saints.  (Some would actually cross over this boundary, being the early Church, and from the nation of Israel, Messianic Jews.)  To these two sides of the Hebrew tree, root and branches, a third type of people that Paul mentions must be added. 

 

These would be people incorporated in Christ through his footnote in Romans 2:14-15, referred to here as the Others.   Although many people have lived without knowledge of the Law and hence Christ, still for some their heart is inclined towards Him, and God, judging the heart, includes these faraway people in His select.  To differentiate whether these people are gathered up with the Harvest or separated as Sheep, broadens the discussion beyond Paul’s Epistle with three points.

 

^{ROM 2:14} (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, ¹⁵ since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

 

The first part of the argument for including the Others in the Elect, depends on Romans 2:14-15 itself.  These are people without the Law, like other Gentiles.  Even without the Law, there is sin, and the penalty like for sin apart from the Law is the same as those who sin under the Law.  However, some of the Gentiles do what is required by the Law, just as those before the Law did like Job and Abraham.  Thus, their heart, being very much being made in the image of God, is inclined towards God, and God, judging the heart, takes their heart attitude into account as defending them.

 

The second part reverts to one of the first resurrection passages: Daniel 12:1.  Here the Man in Linen states: “everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered.”  While the condition of “your people” is also included, depending on which group you assign Daniel (which is covered in the next section), his people may be more than just the Jewish faithful.  So in the first case, if those apart from the Law have a heart for God, and so belong with the living as opposed to those who sin but whose heart carries no remorse or conscience, then they would also be part of the Book of Life.  The Man in Linen also indicates a time perspective with the deliverance of Daniel 12:1; “at that time.”  So in addition in the future, those whose place is fixed within the book of life will be delivered.  This would indicate the Others are included within that designation.

 

The third argument would be the distinction of where souls go when the body expires.  Since most will have died by the time the Rapture comes, what of the person who never hears the Law, yet has a heart for God, where do they go?  Jesus indicated only two places for the dead, Paradise and Hades or in the Old Testament, Sheol.  Presumably, those with a heart for God would be in Paradise.  Just as the thief on Jesus’ right would meet with Jesus that day in Paradise, this would be the natural state for the living.  And as a matter of division on the Rapture, Paul states the dead (meaning the living who have died) in Christ will rise first in 1^st Thessalonians 4:16.  So rightly then, any Other would be so included with the Elect on the day of the Rapture.

 

To conclude who the elect are then, it would be all who gain entry to God’s presence in the Rapture or gathering as Jesus uses it in the Olivet Discourse from Matthew and also have their name in the Book of Life.  In the NT, the primarily people who are the elect there are the Church, because Jesus is the central theme and faith in Him becomes the criteria for admission to God.  Also included are the OT Saints and some Others.  Thus for the Christian reading, the NT Church is a subset of the elect.  Not all who are elect are in the Church as it is defined in the NT, but all of the Church is in the elect.

[Daniel 11:36]

The "elect" in the discourses are all of Israel during the coming tribulation period at the time of the end, no doubt

The Lord is speaking about the 70th week decreed for Israel and still pending

There will be Gentiles saved in the tribulation, but the Lord is speaking about Israel in His discourse .... and He speaks to them as if they would be here .... He does not tell anyone when the time will come 

[wingnut-]

15 minutes ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

The "elect" in the discourses are all of Israel during the coming tribulation period, no doubt

 

Considering the Olivet discourse appears in the New Testament which the majority of Israel does not even read is a bit problematic with this.  There is also Zechariah's prophecy to contend with.

 

Zechariah 13:8  And it shall come to pass in all the land,” Says the Lord, “That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die, But one–third shall be left in it:  9  I will bring the one–third through the fire, Will refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them. I will say, ‘This is My people’; And each one will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”