Guest shiloh357 Posted May 12, 2017 Share Posted May 12, 2017 57 minutes ago, Judas Machabeus said: I disagree with the burden of proof. While you are alive you are a member of the body of Christ. That's in scripture. I don't have to proof anything. Yeah, you do. If you are claiming that we are still in the Church in heaven, then it is incumbent upon you to prove that claim. There is not reference to the Church in heaven. That is because the Church is an earthly institution, not a heavenly one. Once you die and pass on, you are still a child of God, but you will find that the words, "Church" and "Body of Christ" are never used of those in heaven. Quote You claim that changes when you die and you are no longer part of the Body of Christ. So the burden is on you to back up your statement. When Paul uses the the phrase "body of Christ" he is using it metaphorically, referring to Christians as different parts of the human body. He is using the metaphor to explain Christian service on earth and how we serve God and serve each other. He is making the point that we care equally about the various parts of our own physical body equally. We care as much about our pinky toe as much as we care about our heart or our eyesight, or hearing or anything else. It's all important to us. If we get a toothache we are entirely miserable. Everything related to that metaphor has to do with our service on earth. The Bible doesn't show us anyone who has passed into heaven praying for people on earth. None of the functions of the church are functioning Heaven. In fact, what we see happening in Heaven according to the Bible, is people doing little else other than praising and worshiping God. So yes, based on how our existence in heaven is described, everything we know down here, is gone. We are not "the body of Christ" in Heaven, because we wont' have the needs in heaven that we have on earth. In our glorified, sinless bodies, we will be consumed with nothing other than worship of the Lord. You are relying on the inferior interpretations of the RCC which interprets the Bible in a manner that imprisons people to the dictates of their leaders and not according to Scripture. You completely misunderstand how Paul uses the phrase body of Christ. It's why you can't see that praying to Mary is idolatry and an abomination to God. Given how Mary is described in Scripture, she would be grossly offended if she knew people were praying to her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willa Posted May 12, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 68 Topic Count: 186 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 14,247 Content Per Day: 3.33 Reputation: 16,658 Days Won: 30 Joined: 08/14/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted May 12, 2017 On 4/10/2017 at 10:46 PM, Judas Machabeus said: We can ask Why does God....... questions till the cows come home. He's God and He decides what He does and how He does it. We have to follow the rules he sets out. He doesn't have to follow them. I've heard different speakers give various reasons. Mary is sometimes referred to as the new ark of the covenant. In the OT the ark was made from pure gold. Inside it where three items. The 10 commandments (The Word), a jar of Mana (living bread), and Aaron's staff (Priesthood). Mary obviously could not be made of gold but God could still purify her perfectly. Because inside her would be the same things that the OT ark carries except Perfected. In her womb she carried the Word made Flesh, our living bread and our High Priest. So why did God choose immaculate conception for Mary. I don't know, the analogy I gave is one; I think makes sense and can be drawn from scripture. I think that because Jesus was going to get his human body from Mary that it would have to be perfect and without sin. Otherwise Jesus would be receiving flesh tainted with sin. Here is why I believe in the immaculate conception. And most if not all of what I am about to say is highly contested here I know that. I believe scripture teaches that Jesus created a visible authoritative Church. He built this Church upon Peter and the Aposltes and promised the Holy Spirit to protect and guide the Church. I believe that Church is the Catholic Church. So if I believe scripture is the Word of God than I have to believe that the Catholic Church is Christs Church being guided and protected in all its dogmas by the Holy Spirit. Cheers and God Bless To be perfect man, tempted in all ways as we are yet without sin, Jesus would have to have a fully human nature and be born in sin as we are. So I have to disagree with you on nearly every point regarding Mary. I agree fully with the words of the angel. She is blessed to be chosen to carry the Christ child and to raise Him. Yes Jesus was perfect and without sin as to His humanity and is now our Great High Priest. His words are Spirit and they are Life. Immaculate conception of Mary cannot be found in Scripture. I cannot agree that the traditions of men are equal to Scripture in authority; they are more akin to old wives tales. I do agree that the Holy Spirit has preserved the written word. It is totally depravity to me to bow down and pray before any statue or to pray to any angel or dead saint. But I do have regard for you and would not want you to violate your conscience either. We agree to disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Judas Machabeus Posted May 13, 2017 Share Posted May 13, 2017 14 minutes ago, Willa said: We agree to disagree. And I'm okay with that. I do not have a strong Marion devotion. But I do believe scriputre, and I understand scriputre saying Peter first and the Aposltes second have the authority to bind thing on earth and heaven. I believe the Holy Spirit will guide and protect those with that authority from teaching error. So when that Church says something is so, I trust in the scriptures and submit. Some I know will fall into the same category of "Agree to disagree". But that's where I'm coming from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted May 13, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,250 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,497 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted May 13, 2017 32 minutes ago, inchrist said: Here we go again...... It is a very simple hermeneutic... it is what God has had written down so that men will not have excuse! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted May 13, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 165 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 3,997 Content Per Day: 1.56 Reputation: 2,607 Days Won: 15 Joined: 04/29/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted May 13, 2017 10 minutes ago, inchrist said: Again catholic eschatology places the body of christ to reign in heaven.....its not a giant leap to get gueen of heaven Thats intersting inlight of your following comment...... .......but catholics believe Mary is with Jesus in His kingdom in heaven hence the title queen of heaven Did you forget about the parable of the returning king where he gives your cities to reign over, or thrones? That we are to rule and reign with Christ? Jesus answered them, ‘Is it not written in your law [in Psalms 82:6], “I said, ‘You are gods’ ” Every kind after its own kind...a cat and its offspring, a dog and its offspring....a human and its offspring. God and his offsprings. A king and his kings A God and his children of god's A priest and his priests Roms 4:17 God “calleth those things which be not as though they were” I love how you take sentences out of paragraphs and then its not what was said. Hmm.. has this happened before, Oh yes, , "God said, but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die," (Genesis 2:17) and "It's only the fruit from the tree in the middle of the garden that we are not allowed to eat. God said, 'You must not eat it or even touch it; if you do, you will die.'" (Genesis 3:3). God never mentioned touching the fruit, and that is how my words here and other threads are either added to or changed because what I really said isn't quoted in full. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted May 13, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,250 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,497 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted May 13, 2017 47 minutes ago, inchrist said: Can you show me the motive when a catholics prays in front of a statue of mary that they are worshipping mary and not God? John 4:24 (KJV) [24] God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. The one verse you have alread rejected for it's literal meaning is a key tie in these linear thought progressions Romans 1:21 (KJV) [21] Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. [22] Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, [23] And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. [24] Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: [25] Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. Simply put God demands to be worshipped singularly because He alone is The Creator 'the Self Existent One'... and the whole bible is replete with this fact... The summary of Scripture by The Christ should satisfy all questions as to dedicated purpose Mark 12:30 (KJV) [30] And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. [31] And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. I don't see how anyone could convolute this fact Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted May 13, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,250 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,497 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted May 13, 2017 20 minutes ago, inchrist said: I dare you to go to a catholic website and show me exactly where it states that Catholics do not believe this? Honestly I dare you guys to go to a catholic website and actually see what they say, not what you think they say Either we are in two diffferent worlds or you doing this on purpose... catholic doctrine is skewed to the place of damnation and those that place their trust in said doctrine will not be known by The Christ for salvation .... I have study catholism to the point that I stand amazed something so convoluted from the hermeneutical construct of Scripture is even given ear to! This is not rocket science God has written it down so that men will not have excuse ... all men ... even you and I! Love, Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted May 13, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,250 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,497 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted May 13, 2017 20 minutes ago, Fidei Defensor said: I love how you take sentences out of paragraphs and then its not what was said. Hmm.. has this happened before, Oh yes, , "God said, but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die," (Genesis 2:17) and "It's only the fruit from the tree in the middle of the garden that we are not allowed to eat. God said, 'You must not eat it or even touch it; if you do, you will die.'" (Genesis 3:3). God never mentioned touching the fruit, and that is how my words here and other threads are either added to or changed because what I really said isn't quoted in full. You might want to rethink this... just because the Scripture does not alude to this does not mean it is not so ... exageration is lie and the first sin recorded in the Bible is eating the fruit not telling a lie about the fruit! Love, Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted May 13, 2017 Share Posted May 13, 2017 7 hours ago, Judas Machabeus said: And I'm okay with that. I do not have a strong Marion devotion. But I do believe scriputre, and I understand scriputre saying Peter first and the Aposltes second have the authority to bind thing on earth and heaven. I believe the Holy Spirit will guide and protect those with that authority from teaching error. So when that Church says something is so, I trust in the scriptures and submit. Some I know will fall into the same category of "Agree to disagree". But that's where I'm coming from. So when Pope Francis says that Atheists can go to heaven, you just follow what he says? It reminds me of what the Mormons say. They believe that when their leaders speak/teach, the thinking has already been done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted May 13, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,250 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,497 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted May 13, 2017 Matthew 7:20 (KJV) [20] Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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