2 Thess. 2:1

[wingnut-]

On 5/8/2017 at 9:43 AM, Daniel 11:36 said:

Persecution in this 2000 year venture is one thing, but persecution in the coming tribulation is another

 

 

Persecution is persecution, a word does not get redefined based on the timing of it.  For example, James the apostle was beheaded, exactly how is that different than those that are beheaded in the tribulation?  They are all being beheaded for the same reason, and we define that as persecution.

[wingnut-]

14 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

No we don't, we are promised we will not go through this Wrath. That's a PROMISE and God can't lie.

 

While I certainly agree that God does not lie, I am curious about this promise you speak of.  Where exactly is that found in scripture?  The only promise I am aware of is when scripture says "we will not suffer His wrath."   There is a big difference between going through something and suffering something.

I would again remind you of the ten plagues of Egypt, where the Israelites went through the plagues, but did not suffer them.  Key point made in this parallel is the final plague on Egypt.  The symbolism provided is that the Israelites covered their doors with the blood of the Lamb.  Christians are covered by the blood of the Lamb.

God bless

[Daniel 11:36]

"Persecution is persecution"

 

You are not looking at the whole picture

Once the Lord has taken His own to immortality then the tribulation of Revelation's unfolding will begin with a focus upon Israel [Romans 11:25]

Here are those of the pre-tribulation immortals: 

[Corinthians 15:20-23; 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 5:1-9; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3; Matthew 25: 1-13 (those with oil); Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 13:6; 17:14; 18:4; 19:14; 20:4 [those on thrones] 

The great and terrible day of the Lord will be against an unbelieving world of which some will repent, but not many .... the time will be much more intense than previously [Revelation 6:12-17]  

[wingnut-]

8 minutes ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

"Persecution is persecution"

 

You are not looking at the whole picture

Once the Lord has taken His own to immortality then the tribulation of Revelation's unfolding will begin with a focus upon Israel [Romans 11:25]

Here are those of the pre-tribulation immortals: 

[Corinthians 15:20-23; 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 5:1-9; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3; Matthew 25: 1-13 (those with oil); Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 13:6; 17:14; 18:4; 19:14; 20:4 [those on thrones] 

The great and terrible day of the Lord will be against an unbelieving world of which some will repent, but not many .... the time will be much more intense than previously [Revelation 6:12-17]  

 

Actually I am looking at the whole picture, while the rate of persecution will increase that does not change a beheading from being a beheading.  And you still have not acknowledged Revelation 16 and the fact that Jesus says precisely when He is coming like a thief.  Once you do that then you will be looking at the whole picture.

God bless

[Revelation Man]

21 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

RM, Virgo is the woman (the mother) and represents Israel. She is not crowned with brothers, that is silly.

Quote

So do you understand that Astrology is of Satan yet? Why dodge the post?

[Daniel 11:36]

"Actually I am looking at the whole picture"

 

You are not looking at the whole picture

Revelation 16:15 is the Lord telling of His intent to remove His pre-tribulation ecclesia .... then He goes on to describe His Armageddon process at the ending of the tribulation period

And what say you about the other verses that I gave  you in the post that you just refuted? 

[Revelation Man]

38 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

 

While I certainly agree that God does not lie, I am curious about this promise you speak of.  Where exactly is that found in scripture?  The only promise I am aware of is when scripture says "we will not suffer His wrath."   There is a big difference between going through something and suffering something.

I would again remind you of the ten plagues of Egypt, where the Israelites went through the plagues, but did not suffer them.  Key point made in this parallel is the final plague on Egypt.  The symbolism provided is that the Israelites covered their doors with the blood of the Lamb.  Christians are covered by the blood of the Lamb.

God bless

And Israel will be protected again, in the Wilderness for 1260 days. The Church has an APPOINTMENT to Marry the Lamb in Heaven and stay in the Bridal Chambers for 7 years. 

In 1 Thessalonians 5 we see Paul speaking about the Day of he Lord, then he tells then not to worry, for we are not appointed unto Wrath, but obtain Salvation through Jesus Christ.

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Why would you even assume God would ever take people to Heaven 2000 years ago then bring them back? To start with out physical bodies can't go to Heaven, secondly that just wouldn't make sense. However, God taking the church/Bride to Heaven for 7 Years makes plenty of sense, the END-TIME is only Seven Years Away, so by the time we Marry the Lamb Jesus will be coming back to rule Earth for 1000 years. So this timing makes perfect sense.

I see no logic why the Church would need to stay on earth except a few people get the scriptures confused over and over. We are bought and paid for by the blood of Jesus, we don't need to be tested. 

 

Old Testament Shadows
The Old Testament Typifies A PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE

For Example:
Noah was in the ark before the judgment came – he and his family were born above the destruction…

Lot was taken out of Sodom the same day the fire fell…

Joseph married a Gentile Bride and saved her from seven years of famine…

Rahab was saved from the judgment of the city…
Moses and the Hebrew children suffered persecution, but before God destroyed Egypt in the Red Sea they were safe on the other side…

We will continue to see persecution of the Church before the coming of the Lord, but this has been going on since 33 AD.  Persecution comes from your fellow man, but the Wrath of God is not reserved for His Bride, His Church…  it is reserved for those who know not God and those who refuse to serve Him.

It may be of interest for you to know that more Christians were martyred in the last century than all other centuries put together since 33 AD when the church was born…  all of that came from our fellow man, not the wrath of God upon the earth…

[Daniel 11:36]

Persecution in this age is one thing, but the wrath of the living God against human intransigence is coming .... an unprecedented time of vexation never seen before

And today's ecclesia will not be a part of the coming tribulation for sure

[wingnut-]

1 hour ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

"Actually I am looking at the whole picture"

 

You are not looking at the whole picture

Revelation 16:15 is the Lord telling of His intent to remove His pre-tribulation ecclesia .... then He goes on to describe His Armageddon process at the ending of the tribulation period

And what say you about the other verses that I gave  you in the post that you just refuted? 

 

Ok, let's start with I Corinthians 15:20-23.

I Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

 

Jesus Christ the firstfruits, already happened following His resurrection.  Afterward, those who are His at His coming.  His coming being the important thing to pay attention to, because that represents everyone that is His after His resurrection, which includes you and I brother.  The firstfruits would be all those who preceded Him in death that were His.

 

I Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

55 “O Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”

56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.

 

This passage states very clearly, we are all changed from our corruptible flesh to our incorruptible spiritual bodies, all at the same time, in a twinkling of an eye.  This happens at the last trumpet, which can be read about in Revelation, the 7th trumpet.  Then, and only then, is death swallowed up in victory.  Read below what is said at the 7th trumpet.

 

Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” 16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:

“We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

 

Notice how it says the kingdoms have become His, how the fact He has reigned, nations were angry, and wrath has come are all past tense?  As in happened?  Now it is time to judge the dead, reward His children, and destroy those who have destroyed the earth.  That last bit would be a reference to satan and his angels, and all the people who are going to join them in the lake of fire.

Now the fact that Paul tells us all will be changed is significant, because that includes those going into the lake of fire.  Why does that matter?  Because  their corruptible bodies would not last forever and ever in the lake of fire, they get a spiritual body as well, they will just wish they hadn't.

 

I Thessalonians 4:13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

 

This tells us that those who are asleep (dead already) rise first and get their incorruptible bodies, then those who are still alive join them in their incorruptible bodies.  This is where we are caught up together, or raptured as you prefer to meet in the clouds.  Please take note that this occurs when the Lord descends from heaven.  This is the second Coming.  He is coming, we meet Him in the air.

 

I Thessalonians 5:But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

 

Here we again see one of the many occasions that we are given the sign of the thief, again I refer you to Revelation 16 where Jesus says, "Behold, I come as a thief!"  just prior to the battle of Armageddon.  And what are told, to make sure we have on our armor, refer back to Matthew 24 and where we are told to wear our garments.  And also to Ephesians passage that tells us of our armor and to have it on if we are the generation that is here on that evil day, so we can stand firm.  We are not appointed to wrath because we are His children, His wrath will not touch us because of this, just like the Israelites were protected in Egypt, covered by the blood of the Lamb.

 

II Thessalonians 2:Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

 

This passage Paul tells us not to be concerned with rumors about the second Coming and the gathering, because it will not happen until after the anti-christ has come to power.  This of course means that the gathering cannot take place prior to when the temple is defiled, which doesn't happen until the midway point of the tribulation, so clearly it cannot take place prior to that.  And since we already know when He is coming as a thief, we know that is the case, so it won't be a surprise.

 

Matthew 25  “Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Now five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3 Those who were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them, 4 but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 5 But while the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept.

6 “And at midnight a cry was heard: ‘Behold, the bridegroom is coming; go out to meet him!’ 7 Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ 9 But the wise answered, saying, ‘No, lest there should not be enough for us and you; but go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.’ 10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut.

11 “Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ 12 But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’

13 “Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.

 

This parable is reinforcing the fact that we must be prepared, as in put on your armor.  The wise were prepared, the foolish were not.  Notice how the foolish fell asleep and go back to the passages we already discussed where Paul talks about the dark and the light and the differences between the two.  Also take note where Paul specifically mentions the "falling away" and that should shed some light on this parable for you.

 

Revelation 3:10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

 

This hour of trial is referenced multiple times in scripture.  In Matthew 24 Jesus replied to His disciples about no one knowing the day or the hour.  In Revelation we are told that the anti-christ gives power to the kings for one hour.  In Revelation 18 we are told about this one hour.  This hour is the battle of Armageddon.

 

Revelation 18:9 “The kings of the earth who committed fornication and lived luxuriously with her will weep and lament for her, when they see the smoke of her burning, 10 standing at a distance for fear of her torment, saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! For in one hour your judgment has come.’

 

Revelation 4:4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads.

 

These individuals are among the firstfruits who Jesus took with Him following the resurrection when Abraham's bosom was emptied.  Revelation 5:1-10 references the same individuals.  Revelation 7:9-17 tells us of what happens after His coming and speaks to the very things mentioned in Revelation 21 regarding the new heaven and earth.  Revelation 11:1 is speaking of things prior to the end and is referencing the firstfruits again.  Revelation 13:6 is talking about the anti-christ and the abomination of the temple, where he speaks against God and the angels of heaven who stand with God.  Revelation 17:14 is talking about the battle of Armageddon and the hour spoken of previously, in which satan and all his followers are destroyed by God and all His followers, which includes you and I.  Revelation 18:4 is speaking of the gathering of the saints and where we meet Him in the air.  Revelation 19:14 is talking about the second Coming.  Revelation 20:4 is talking about us, where we will judge the angels who revolted, this goes hand in hand with what we are told following the 7th trumpet regarding the time of judgement and rewards, etc.

So now I have addressed every one of your scriptures, how about you address the one I have asked you about on multiple occasions.

 

Revelation 16:15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”

16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.

 

See how one can explain scripture without twisting themselves and scripture in a knot?  If you need more clarification on anything please ask and I will be happy to discuss it, in the meantime please consider an answer to me in regards to the above passage.

God bless

[Daniel 11:36]

"This passage states very clearly, we are all changed from our corruptible flesh to our incorruptible spiritual bodies, all at the same time, in a twinkling of an eye.  This happens at the last trumpet, which can be read about in Revelation, the 7th trumpet.  Then, and only then, is death swallowed up in victory.  Read below what is said at the 7th trumpet."

 

All of the trumpets, including the 7th, are for the tribulation period .... they are all "judgment" trumpets

The last trumpet for the Lord's ecclesia is different and will sound just before the tribulation begins

The first trumpet for His true ecclesia is here [Revelation 1:10]