Old Earth or Young Earth

[SavedOnebyGrace]

For some, the belief in a Young Earth seems to be based on a kind of intuition or faith in what they believe an omnipotent God should do. It reasons that if God is all powerful, then certainly He would not have taken millions of years to make the earth. - Norman Geisler

Since God has no beginning or end, time is meaningless to Him.  It is a created dimension for us.  I believe the Godhead gleaned great pleasure in the creation of this marvelous and wonderfully intricate universe for us. - Saved.One.by.Grace
 

[Enoch2021]

20 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

Source: Why I Reject a Young Earth View

Riveting !!  Right up there with "Cat in a Hat".

 

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The question of the meaning and proper interpretation of the early chapters of Genesis is one of the most heated subjects in Christendom today.

Yes well, they NEED to have their Fairytale Narrative 'evolution' (Whatever that is ??).

 

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In this article, I attempt to show that, while it is possible to interpret the book of Genesis in light of a young earth...

It's not only possible, it's the only 'coherent' position.

 

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...there is no Biblical mandate for this conclusion

Save for: Common Sense, Simple Exegesis, Logical and Doctrinal Consistency.  Other than those, you could be right. 

You have some problems, professor...

If you 'believe' that there were Millions of Years with Death/Disease/Suffering/Thorns et al *BEFORE* The Fall (Genesis 3) you have some "SERIOUS" (as in *"Fatal"*) Doctrinal and Logical Consistency Problems...

(Genesis 1:31) "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was *very good*. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."

(1 Corinthians 15:26) "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."

You must show "DEATH" in Genesis Chapter 1-2 or... show how DEATH is *"Very Good"*.

 

(Genesis 3:17) "And unto Adam he said, BECAUSE thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: CURSED is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;"

As in, *Because* you have done this... *"NOW"* the ground (EARTH --- not just Man) is *CURSED*; not before 'The Fall'.

 

(Genesis 3:18) "Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;"

*"NOW"* Thorns and Thistles (There are Thorn and Thistle Fossils); NOT before 'The Fall'.

 

(Genesis 3:19) "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."

*"NOW"* Adam and Eve's fate will be DEATH, Adam and Eve were Immortal before the Fall (Tree of Life)...

 

(Genesis 3:22) "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and *LIVE FOR EVER*:"

(Genesis 3:23-24) "Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. {24} So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the *TREE OF LIFE*."

*"NOW"* the Tree of Life is guarded; NOT before 'The Fall'.

 

2. If you 'believe' that there were Millions of Years with Death/Disease/Suffering/Thorns et al *BEFORE* The Fall (Genesis 3) you have some *"SERIOUS"* (as in *"Fatal"*) Doctrinal and Logical Consistency Problems...

 

Then why the need for a... *"KINSMEN REDEEMER"*, The Goel... (Jesus Christ)

(Romans 5:12) "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

(1 Corinthians 15:45) "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the *LAST ADAM* was made a quickening spirit."

The Last Adam: Jesus Christ. The Whole of *The DOCTRINE OF SALVATION is "DIS-ANNULLED!"*

You make HIM a Liar and then have HIM Sacrificing Himself for HIS Kinsmen... "Trilobites !!" And Yes...it's Really THAT BAD!

GOEL:
He must be near of kin. (Leviticus 25:48; 25:25 Ruth 3:12-13)
He must be able to redeem (Ruth 4:4-“6). He must be free of any calamity or need of redemption himself.
He must be willing to redeem (Ruth 4:6ff)
Redemption was completed when the price was completely paid (Leviticus 25:27; Ruth 4:7-11).

(Job 19:25) "For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:" ??

 

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I am trained as a scientist (I’m a postgraduate student in evolutionary biology).

1. a. 'evolutionary' What's that...?? Define evolution...?

b. Post the Scientific Theory of evolution...?

c. Post just TWO Formal Scientific Hypotheses then *Experiments* that concretized it into a *REAL* Scientific Theory...?

d. Post the Null Hypotheses that were Rejected/Falsified for each...?

e. Highlight The Independent Variables used in Each TEST...?

2.  Since there are no answers for the simple queries above, you are NOT a Scientist; Crocheting is more Scientific.

 

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And, as a scientist, the arguments for an ancient earth seem to be very compelling

1.  You're not a Scientist (SEE: above and... 3. below, which Unequivocally demonstrates that you wouldn't know what ACTUAL "Science" was if it landed on your head, spun around, and whistled dixie. )

2.  If "Dating" was an actual Scientific Endeavor, you wouldn't need any Arguments.   

3.  Any 5th Grade General Science Graduate knows Prima Facia, that ALL "Dating Methods" are outside of the Scientific Method; "Sciences' " Purview, for goodness sakes.
You have NO....: "Independent Variable", so as to Form a Valid Scientific Hypothesis to TEST then VALIDATE your PREDICTION. Ahhh... "SCIENCE" !

a. So "Independent Variables" are the "Input" (The Cause) that is CHANGED "manipulated by the scientist" so as to measure/validate the "Output" (The Effect) "Dependent Variables"---Predictions.

b. "Independent Variables" are sine qua non (indispensable, as it were) to Scientific Hypothesis construction, then Ipso Facto Experiments!!  So can you please elaborate: 

How on Earth can you CHANGE the "INPUT" and TEST your Prediction on a Past Event (lol) without a Time Machine, Pray Tell....?

You're in a simple Category Error. The Scientific Method is used to Validate "Cause and Effect" Relationships...it's Non Sequitur (Fallacy) to use it to extrapolate "age".
It's tantamount to using a Framing Square to calculate the GNP of the Netherlands, for goodness sakes.  

Ergo...

A Better Question: Given the Immutable Fact that it is OUTSIDE the Scientific Method and can never be VALIDATED, why on Earth are these "Long Ages" PUSHED ad nauseam, mainly by Pseudo-Scientists..."Then Stage 5 Clung" to with a Kung Fu Death Grip then Blindly Parroted by the masses as Fact and all challengers ridiculed endlessly for even bringing the topic up, Pray Tell...??? 

Sounds like "Propaganda" to me...you? It's mind numbing.

Moreover...

According to Niels Bohr, Werner Heisenberg, Max Born, described by Erwin Schrodinger --- THEN Validated Repeatedly via Thousands of "EXPERIMENTS" without Exception for the past 100 years with the most successful branch of Physics in the History of "Actual" Science, Quantum Mechanics... : 

 

Independent of the KNOWLEDGE of the "Which-Path Information" -- or of it EXISTING... particles (Photons, All Elementary Particles, Atoms, Molecules) have no defined properties or location. They exist in a state of "A Wave Function" which is a series of Potentialities rather than actual objects. 

That is, "Matter" doesn't exist as a Wave of Energy prior to observation but as a Wave of Potentialities.  Wave "Functions" aren't "WAVES"(Classical Peak/Troughs) they are "Potentialities" i.e., Probabilities, they have no Mass/Energy. 

To put it another way, the "Wave" of a Wave Function is not a "Wave" in "Physical Space", it's merely an abstract mathematical construct.

 

So... "Matter" (Our Reality) doesn't exist without, FIRST:

 

A "Knower"/Existence of the "Which-Path" Information.

 

 

Listen closely...

 

“It begins to look as we ourselves, by our last minute decision, have an influence on what a photon will do when it has already accomplished most of its doing… we have to say that we ourselves have an undeniable part in what we have always called the past. The PAST is not really the PAST until is has been REGISTERED. 

Or to put it another way, THE PAST has NO MEANING or EXISTENCE unless it exists as a RECORD in the present.”
Prof. John Wheeler "Referenced in"; The Ghost In The Atom; Page 66-68.

 

So... unless you can provide The Name of the Person who "Originally" Observed these Rocks/Ice Cores (Whatever), Date/Time Stamped --REGISTERED and Recorded THEM (Then a Chain of Continuous Observational CUSTODY till current times) ...

Then you MUST provide the "Decay Rate", "Speed", Ice Cores (Whatever)... for a Wave of Potentialities ??

4.  Since you've demonstrated 'severe' delusional behavior with a very simple concept "Science" (of which you claim to be an expert, "AS IF"), up to this point... that a semi-coherent 3rd grader could reconcile, we will be dismissing the rest of your incoherent treatise of which you are clearly not an Expert.  Follow?

 

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For some, the belief in a Young Earth seems to be based on a kind of intuition or faith in what they believe an omnipotent God should do. It reasons that if God is all powerful, then certainly He would not have taken millions of years to make the earth. - Norman Geisler

1.  Key Word:  "Seems".

2.  I'm a Young Earth Creationist and I don't hold the position of a Young Earth based on 'a kind' of intuition or BLIND (what you were clumsily intimating Norman) Faith.  Ergo, feebly conjured (and Executed) Straw Man Fallacy.

3.  I'm a Young Earth Creationist and I don't hold the position of a Young Earth based on what I think an omnipotent God "Should" do.  I just simply read Genesis - Revelation, apply some: Common Sense, Simple Exegesis, Logical and Doctrinal Consistency and Voila...it's not Brain Surgery.

4.  "Should Do"??  I mean, this isn't even wrong.  I, as a Young Earth Creationist, focus on what HE SAID HE DID rather than conjure stories on Incoherent Subjective "SHOULDS".  Ya Trackin with me Norm??

5.  "It reasons that if God is all powerful, then certainly He would not have taken millions of years to make the earth."

a.  Who's "it" ??

b.  Non Sequitur Fallacy.  It must be hard conjuring Straw Man Fallacies against people --- that can demonstrate your position as having the same veracity as Alice in Wonderland, then... Burning Them Down!   IMPRESSIVE!!  I'd wager you were the Captain of your Junior High Debate Team.

 

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Since God has no beginning or end, time is meaningless to Him.  It is a created dimension for us.

This is Correct.  Do you have a Point...?

Or are you trying to somehow conflate 'the notion' that since 'Time is Meaningless to God' that the sequence of events ("TIME") in the Bible are Meaningless??

I suppose the "TIME" Calculation --- TO THE EXACT DAY 500 YEARS in Advance, of when the Messiah will come (Jesus Triumphal Entry) spoken of in Daniel 9:25 (and his Execution Dan 9:26) was Meaningless ??

It was so 'Meaningless', that Because the Jews didn't recognize it... Jesus pronounced Judgement on the City: 

(Luke 19:41-44) "And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,  {42} Saying,  If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.  {43}  For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,  {44}  And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation."

So the Destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD... and the Diaspora, was 'Meaningless' to HIM ?? 

 

smh

[dprprb]

9 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

For some, the belief in a Young Earth seems to be based on a kind of intuition or faith in what they believe an omnipotent God should do. It reasons that if God is all powerful, then certainly He would not have taken millions of years to make the earth. - Norman Geisler

Since God has no beginning or end, time is meaningless to Him.  It is a created dimension for us.  I believe the Godhead gleaned great pleasure in the creation of this marvelous and wonderfully intricate universe for us. - Saved.One.by.Grace
 

I like that you said the interpretation is not required to be ...it leaves the door open and that has good and bad points. The level of reflection presented in the post "Why I reject a young earth..." certainly makes sense, but what happens when something else comes along that makes equal amounts of Scriptural sense and muddies the water? The reason I ask is that I find that all the miracles are best understood as miracles of time. All of them, every one I can think of. Eternity is the gift of God and I assess, to the best of my ability, that every miracle is a testimony of the power to deliver. So when God Himself so often moves this dimension about to our salvation and His glorification then how can i withdraw any conclusions in our point of view (thus time is muddied)? I can accept YEC, OEC I,II,III, 13.7bya --whichever --because in that case what is really required is further instruction. These are the 'words of Salvation' not decimal places. 'Nothing else is required' to save not educate. So given my personal 'creating' experience I usually engage some apparatus to either change the scale of  the forces or information . Does the Almighty (in the Almighty case not Jesus or Spirit form) have an algorithm for working on this speck of a thing we call earth? surely 26 dimensional physics can come up with something ..possibly far simpler?? And He doesnt need to give it along with Scripture spelled out in so many words but ...I think the note about Days 1-3 and 4-6 being superimposed begins to tell the tale...Neat! I didnt realize that and I am going to give that some long term thought , and about this thing that has been so divinely crafted  ...

 

 

Edited June 10, 2017 by dprprb

[HAZARD]

The Pre-Adamite World and the Ancient Origin of Satan, a.k.a. Lucifer.

Materials from this site may be freely copied for personal use or church Bible studies.

http://www.kjvbible.org/satan.html

Observations of Geological Evidence for
 the Death of the Old World

http://www.kjvbible.org/death_of_the_ancient_world.html

 

Life Forms Just Before End of Ice Age
and After Seven Days of Genesis

http://www.kjvbible.org/lifeform.html

The Necessary Dividing Lines between Science and Faith
 and the Vanity of the Ongoing Creation vs. Evolution Debate

http://www.kjvbible.org/thedebate.html

The Sevens (7) of the Bible
in Time and Nature

http://www.kjvbible.org/seven_days.html

The Lost Rivers of the Garden of Eden

http://www.kjvbible.org/rivers_of_the_garden_of_eden.html

The Fountains of Noah's Flood and the Windows of Heaven

http://www.kjvbible.org/geysers.html

Plus much, much, more, follow the next page tab at the bottom of each page.

[hmbld]

19 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

For some, the belief in a Young Earth seems to be based on a kind of intuition or faith in what they believe an omnipotent God should do. It reasons that if God is all powerful, then certainly He would not have taken millions of years to make the earth. - Norman Geisler

Since God has no beginning or end, time is meaningless to Him.  It is a created dimension for us.  I believe the Godhead gleaned great pleasure in the creation of this marvelous and wonderfully intricate universe for us. - Saved.One.by.Grace
 

I started out simply not knowing.  I reasoned God could have made the earth however old that He wanted to.  Mostly because I knew some Christians who said the earth was young, and my grade school teacher said it was billions of years old.  I could have bought into these strange theories presented, such as the pre-adamite world theory except for:  I have seen nobody refute Shiloh's argument of the semantics of Hebrew concerning Genesis 1.  I have seen no one refute the fact that death did not occur before Adam sinned.  Even if one could get past these two points, I simply don't understand how God would mislead us by telling us He created the world in 6 days if He didn't mean 6 days.  Is God a liar?

[SavedOnebyGrace]

13 hours ago, hmbld said:

I started out simply not knowing.  I reasoned God could have made the earth however old that He wanted to.  Mostly because I knew some Christians who said the earth was young, and my grade school teacher said it was billions of years old.  I could have bought into these strange theories presented, such as the pre-adamite world theory except for:  I have seen nobody refute Shiloh's argument of the semantics of Hebrew concerning Genesis 1.  I have seen no one refute the fact that death did not occur before Adam sinned.  Even if one could get past these two points, I simply don't understand how God would mislead us by telling us He created the world in 6 days if He didn't mean 6 days.  Is God a liar?

The argument presented by Shiloh357, I believe, has been successfully refuted, at least in my mind as the Holy Spirit has blessed me and others with an older understanding of Genesis.  Nothing written in the Bible is definitively 6 solar days of Creation.  Looking at the 7th day, in never ended.  There's much to study in the article I hyperlinked and with related articles.  The only question I have is: is the Gap Theory correct; or is the Day-Age Theory correct?

[HAZARD]

The evidence of death in Earth's geologic Deep-Time (revealed by the fossil record) is not a fact that disproves the Biblical narrative. On the contrary, it cannot be lightly dismissed in an honest and intelligent quest for Biblical truth. Yes, In the beginning God Created the heaven and Earth (Genesis 1:1), but a Rightly-Divided literal reading of the Holy Bible reveals the seven-days of Genesis are not a description of the Earth's original creation, nor are they some enigmatic description of the Earth's geologic history. They are the Holy Spirit's inspired Scriptural account of how the Lord God Almighty regenerated the heavens and Earth after a previous world order was corrupted by Lucifer's rebellion and fall in Earth's ancient past (Isaiah 14:12-16 & Ezekiel 28:13-17).

"And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."
(Genesis 1:2 KJV)

The Bible clearly says the Earth was already here before the work of the seven-days even begins. There is a vast time-gap between the first two verses of Genesis.

The Genesis Gap Doctrine, commonly called the "Gap Theory" or "Ruin-Reconstruction" interpretation of Genesis, is not a modern-day interpretation of the Holy Bible. It is a theological teaching that was espoused by the fundamental Protestant faith long before Darwin's Theory of Evolution was published; at a time when the modern geological sciences were in still in their infancy. The Genesis Gap Doctrine does not contradict the accepted scientific evidence and observations that indicate an Earth that is at least 4.5 billion years old. It also explains why there is evidence of death observed in the Earth's fossil record extending at least three-billion years back into Deep-Time.

Genesis 1:2 is the Holy Bible's first mystery. And the precise wording of this New Testament cross-reference to Genesis 1:2 provides the Biblical basis for correctly interpreting the full truth of the matter:

"For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."
(2 Pet 3:5-7 KJV)

More here;

http://www.kjvbible.org/index.html

[SavedOnebyGrace]

On 6/9/2017 at 9:48 PM, dprprb said:

I like that you said the interpretation is not required to be ...it leaves the door open and that has good and bad points. The level of reflection presented in the post "Why I reject a young earth..." certainly makes sense, but what happens when something else comes along that makes equal amounts of Scriptural sense and muddies the water? The reason I ask is that I find that all the miracles are best understood as miracles of time. All of them, every one I can think of. Eternity is the gift of God and I assess, to the best of my ability, that every miracle is a testimony of the power to deliver. So when God Himself so often moves this dimension about to our salvation and His glorification then how can i withdraw any conclusions in our point of view (thus time is muddied)? I can accept YEC, OEC I,II,III, 13.7bya --whichever --because in that case what is really required is further instruction. These are the 'words of Salvation' not decimal places. 'Nothing else is required' to save not educate. So given my personal 'creating' experience I usually engage some apparatus to either change the scale of  the forces or information . Does the Almighty (in the Almighty case not Jesus or Spirit form) have an algorithm for working on this speck of a thing we call earth? surely 26 dimensional physics can come up with something ..possibly far simpler?? And He doesnt need to give it along with Scripture spelled out in so many words but ...I think the note about Days 1-3 and 4-6 being superimposed begins to tell the tale...Neat! I didnt realize that and I am going to give that some long term thought , and about this thing that has been so divinely crafted  ...

Miracles understood as miracles of time?  I'm afraid you lost me.  As I've said on multiple occasions, salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ is not dependent on our understanding of the first ten or so chapters of Genesis.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.… - Berean Study Bible

[SavedOnebyGrace]

Water in the Universe

Source: The Solar System Is Awash in Water

Source: Water in the Universe

Food for thought.

[simplejeff]

14 hours ago, hmbld said:

I simply don't understand how God would mislead us by telling us He created the world in 6 days if He didn't mean 6 days.

Yes, Good, Keep trusting God.  He is Right.   The others are wrong,  eternally .....

Even in Psalms , or Also in Psalms,  Shows Clearly young earth.  No distraction from Truth.  No Twisting like the evilutionists, etc....

 

Trust God,  not men.   Even though the others never may change their mind. ("always 'studying' yet never coming to knowledge of the Truth") ...