iamlamad Posted June 16, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted June 16, 2017 8 hours ago, wingnut- said: I don't disagree with you, the problem is it does not fit your theory of the rapture. An hour is an hour, it is not 7 years. It's funny how people treat Greek as though it is an extinct language, it is very telling as to whether one is actually fluent in Greek or simply trying to break it down from a book. If a friend of mine speaks to me in Greek, and we are going to meet somewhere and he says he will see me in an hour, he means an hour. If it is 6pm, I will expect him around 7pm, not 7 years later. I would rather think that this "hour" is a metaphor or a symbolic period of time. Sort of like the "Day" of the Lord. It is going to be a very long day! Perhaps this "hour" is NOT the same hour as the hour in which Jerusalem will be destroyed. And perhaps that "hour" too is a metaphor for just a short period of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted June 16, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted June 16, 2017 8 hours ago, wingnut- said: The other problem is that you want to disregard what is said to the other six churches, they hold the same value as what is said to this church. Including the church in Smyrna, that not one thing is said to them to reflect a negative connotation. You don't want to address that issue, or the fact there are 7 lampstands, not just one. We were not talking about the other 6 churches. I am not disregarding anything. I am still wondering when you will finally tells us how you and the rest of the body of Christ will get back to heaven where the real marriage and supper will take place. And how in your theory God will have sheep for the sheep and goat judgment. And how you are going to repopulate the earth during the Millennial reign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted June 16, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted June 16, 2017 (edited) On 6/15/2017 at 11:51 PM, wingnut- said: This is a whole new can of worms you are opening. You may not mean it this way, but what you are implying is that there are believers out there whose salvation is conditional on works. They haven't done enough good things to deserve being removed, the suggestion speaks against the perfect sacrifice made by Jesus. It also speaks against scripture in that God is no respecter of persons, nor does He show favoritism. So no, it absolutely does not make sense in the slightest. In case you missed it, there are always TWO SIDES to a coin. If God puts a condition on something, saying IF you will do this, THEN I will do that, He does not tell us the opposite side (usually) but leaves it for our imagination. The Old Testament shows us what happens when we don't meet God's condition or His IF. "Salvation" as in becoming "born again" is certainly not of works, lest any man should boast. I hope we agree on this. But is this becoming a "new creature in Christ Jesus" a guarantee of heaven? No, it is not. Many people think it is, but it is not. For example, Paul has told us that fornicators will not get to heaven. Suppose someone gets born again but ignores that verse and is determined to live in fornication? Will God forget what He said through Paul? If you wish to call the truth a can or worms, that is on you. Was Paul just blowing in the wind when he wrote about becoming a castaway? I don't think so. There really IS a verse that speaks of "holiness without which no man shall see the Lord." Edited June 17, 2017 by iamlamad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted June 16, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted June 16, 2017 8 hours ago, wingnut- said: I'm harping on it because trying to attribute it to the church and the rapture is blatantly wrong, and I don't want anyone to follow this ideology. It is wrong because it is taking one verse from a Psalm and trying to make it say something it does not say. No one ever said this verse was a rapture verse. I have always said, ONLY PAUL wrote of the rapture. However, I see the rapture as God's escape clause. You don't. Perhaps that is your biggest problem. God HAS made a way of escape, but you simply don't believe Him. Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. If you choose NOT to escape, why try to convince others to stay behind with you? This is what the main thrust of your argument is: you choose not to escape. I get that. It is your decision. My question is, why try to knock those that believe this verse and are planning to use God's escape? Is that the loving thing to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted June 16, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted June 16, 2017 8 hours ago, wingnut- said: The answer to every one of those questions should be rather obvious. Which means that one verse from within this Psalm does not "fit" with anything in heaven, which is where you believe the rapture leads to. Now if you want to claim this speaks to Israel in the wilderness during the time of the great tribulation, we wouldn't be having this discussion. They are being protected in the wilderness right? Hidden in His pavilion? Just because you don't want to escape to heaven does not mean that millions of others will stay behind with you. In fact, only 144,000 of the Jews get sealed for their protection. What happens with the rest? They will get STUNG by the flying scorpion beasties. Some, without much doubt, will be killed at the 6th trumpet. But yes, for those few that flee into the wilderness, they will certainly be protected. But at the very same time, there will be a great crowd, too large to number, IN HEAVEN being protected. BANG! (gavel drops: Case closed.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted June 16, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted June 16, 2017 9 hours ago, wingnut- said: 13 hours ago, iamlamad said: I fully expect according to the scriptures to be caught up and taken to heaven. And that will happen pretrib. If you DON'T expect this, chances are good it will not happen to you. This scare tactic is not any more convincing than your theory in regards to the one verse from this Psalm. It is actually quite sad that one would stoop to such a tactic. God's grace is sufficient for all believers, there is zero scriptural support for an attempt to make an eschatological view a salvational issue. If anything it exposes the weakness of your overall argument. Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. Wingnut, I did not write this. Perhaps you just look up the word "may." What is the flip side of this coin? 1 Corinthians 9:27But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. Did the Holy Spirit just waste His breath (so to speak) here? Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Tell us: was the Holy Spirit just rambling here? I don't think so. The truth is, IT IS POSSIBLE to become a castaway. It is possible to fall away. This is not a "born again" issue, it is a "get to heaven" issue. These two are not exactly the same thing. OF COURSE God's grace is sufficient. We all should know that. But we all should also know, God will NOT override the human will. He created us with the right of choice. John Calvin was wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warrior12 Posted June 16, 2017 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 54 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,428 Content Per Day: 0.88 Reputation: 1,516 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/05/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted June 16, 2017 (edited) 49 minutes ago, iamlamad said: Just because you don't want to escape to heaven does not mean that millions of others will stay behind with you. In fact, only 144,000 of the Jews get sealed for their protection. What happens with the rest? They will get STUNG by the flying scorpion beasties. Some, without much doubt, will be killed at the 6th trumpet. But yes, for those few that flee into the wilderness, they will certainly be protected. But at the very same time, there will be a great crowd, too large to number, IN HEAVEN being protected. BANG! (gavel drops: Case closed.) Want to interject a question here. Don't you think God can shield all, everyone of his children in the tribulation period and not one hair would be touched. Is that possible ?. He did with the three Hebrews boys in the fire that the Babylonian king sent them too. Why can't he not protect that are his own, as he said he would . Men think in regards to their limitations, with God there is none. Even though, let say saints are killed in the tribulation period, aren't you destined for eternal life anyway, why the fear. Did not the Lord say many times to "Fear not', then again it is natural for man to do so as it is his nature. Edited June 16, 2017 by warrior12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wingnut- Posted June 16, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 39 Topic Count: 101 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 7,673 Content Per Day: 1.31 Reputation: 7,358 Days Won: 67 Joined: 04/22/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted June 16, 2017 6 hours ago, iamlamad said: I would rather think that this "hour" is a metaphor or a symbolic period of time. Sort of like the "Day" of the Lord. It is going to be a very long day! Perhaps this "hour" is NOT the same hour as the hour in which Jerusalem will be destroyed. And perhaps that "hour" too is a metaphor for just a short period of time. So what does that make this? A shorter short time? Half a short time? Revelation 8 When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. Like I said, Greek is not an extinct language, it is amazing to watch people treat it as though it is because they are not fluent in it. God bless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wingnut- Posted June 16, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 39 Topic Count: 101 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 7,673 Content Per Day: 1.31 Reputation: 7,358 Days Won: 67 Joined: 04/22/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted June 16, 2017 7 hours ago, iamlamad said: In case you missed it, there are always TWO SIDES to a coin. If God puts a condition on something, saying IF you will do this, THEN I will do that, He does not tell us the opposite side (usually) but leaves it for our imagination. The Old Testament shows us what happens when we don't meet God's condition or His IF. "Salvation" as in becoming "born again" is certainly not of works, lest any man should boast. I hope we agree on this. But is this becoming a "new creature in Christ Jesus" a guarantee of heaven? No, it is not. Many people think it is, but it is not. For example, Paul has told us that fornicators will not get to heaven. Suppose someone gets born again but ignores that verse and is determined to live in fornication? Will God forget what He said through Paul? If you wish to all the truth a can or worms, that is on you. Was Paul just blowing in the wind when he wrote about becoming a castaway? I don't think so. There really IS a verse that speaks of "holiness without which no man shall see the Lord." Romans 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written: “For Your sake we are killed all day long; We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.” 37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wingnut- Posted June 16, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 39 Topic Count: 101 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 7,673 Content Per Day: 1.31 Reputation: 7,358 Days Won: 67 Joined: 04/22/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted June 16, 2017 7 hours ago, iamlamad said: We were not talking about the other 6 churches. I am not disregarding anything. I am still wondering when you will finally tells us how you and the rest of the body of Christ will get back to heaven where the real marriage and supper will take place. And how in your theory God will have sheep for the sheep and goat judgment. And how you are going to repopulate the earth during the Millennial reign. Why aren't we talking about the other 6 churches, they are found in the same book? Why is it that pre-tribbers only see one lampstand and not all 7 of them? You don't apply that to the seals, trumpets, or bowls. In case you haven't noticed, there are 7 of those as well. As for the marriage and supper that discussion is taking place in another thread, don't try derailing this one to avoid your inability to address it. God bless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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