Steve_S Posted June 7, 2017 Group: Servant Followers: 25 Topic Count: 275 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 5,208 Content Per Day: 0.99 Reputation: 1,893 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/02/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted June 7, 2017 3 minutes ago, Running Gator said: I guess I am not sure what you mean by "spiritual discernment". The words of the bible are the words of the bible. Anyone can read them and see what they say. To me spiritual discernment deals with taking what others say and testing it against what the bible states. Well, for starters, one who reads the words of the bible and does not believe what it says has poor discernment wouldn't you say? Not believing that Christ is the Son of God, sent to be the propitiation for our sins, is certainly a bad decision and reflects faulty understanding of the most important truths that there are, does it not? 1Co 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. The question is whether or not one can truly understand what God has given us without God's help. That is where spiritual discernment comes in. The bible indicates that one must seek discernment to attain it, but that it cannot be obtained without God. If Christopher Hitchens truly understood the scriptures he would have sought Christ as his savior, wouldn't he have? Do you think it is possible to totally understand the body of the scripture without assistance from God? Heb 5:12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. Heb 5:13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. Heb 5:14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Jas 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. Jas 1:6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. This is pretty simple really. The only absolute truth that can be given comes from God and if one seeks wisdom earnestly and in faith, God will provide it. This is not present in islam, nothing of the sort is, because it is false. To couch it more in pure biblical terminology, unbelievers are not even at the "milk" phase insofar as understanding, because it is impossible for them to truly have any wisdom from God without Him granting it them and they cannot seek it in faith if they have no faith to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 23 minutes ago, Running Gator said: But, that is not what is happening. what is happening is that non-Muslims are defining what a "true" Muslim is. For the most part, there is no dialogue, and that is the problem A "true Muslim" would be the one that most closely resembles the founder of Islam, namely Mohammad. Since Mohammad wrote the Koran based on a vision from an angel, he would be the model against which Muslims are measured. Mohammad was a murderer, a thief, a psychopath and a pedophile. So the closer a Muslim resembles the founder of Islam the more true of a Muslim he/she would be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlanetChee Posted June 7, 2017 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 791 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 547 Days Won: 1 Joined: 05/20/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted June 7, 2017 Quote 55 minutes ago, Running Gator said: I dismiss his opinion because it is in my mind irrelevant as he is not one of us. To me the same holds true for those on the outside looking in at Islam. Then to stop looking contradictory you'll stop defending what you clearly do not know anything about; Islam. Right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Running Gator Posted June 7, 2017 Group: Royal Member * Followers: 8 Topic Count: 91 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 10,596 Content Per Day: 3.63 Reputation: 2,743 Days Won: 25 Joined: 06/16/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted June 7, 2017 2 minutes ago, PlanetChee said: Then to stop looking contradictory you'll stop defending what you clearly do not know anything about; Islam. Right? Your premise is false, I would say I know more about Islam than anyone on this board, and I learned it from Muslims, not from far right prejudiced websites. It is faulty logic to assume because we do not agree that I lack knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlanetChee Posted June 7, 2017 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 791 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 547 Days Won: 1 Joined: 05/20/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted June 7, 2017 Christopher Hitchens is dead. He died of complications due to pneumonia while battling and nearing remission with throat cancer due to years of strong alcohol abuse and chain cigarette smoking. Christopher Hitchens hated religion, Christianity especially, and had no respect for the religious. The irony being his own brother is a theist. Only what loathes the faith of Christ could find what Hitchens had to say about God, as in his book, God Is Not Great, informative to their own walk as atheist. “That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens “Beware the irrational, however seductive. Shun the 'transcendent' and all who invite you to subordinate or annihilate yourself. Distrust compassion; prefer dignity for yourself and others. Don't be afraid to be thought arrogant or selfish. Picture all experts as if they were mammals. Never be a spectator of unfairness or stupidity. Seek out argument and disputation for their own sake; the grave will supply plenty of time for silence. Suspect your own motives, and all excuses. Do not live for others any more than you would expect others to live for you.” ― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlanetChee Posted June 7, 2017 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 791 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 547 Days Won: 1 Joined: 05/20/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted June 7, 2017 Just now, Running Gator said: Your premise is false, I would say I know more about Islam than anyone on this board, and I learned it from Muslims, not from far right prejudiced websites. It is faulty logic to assume because we do not agree that I lack knowledge. I doubt your assertion in its entirety because you haven't demonstrated such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Running Gator Posted June 7, 2017 Group: Royal Member * Followers: 8 Topic Count: 91 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 10,596 Content Per Day: 3.63 Reputation: 2,743 Days Won: 25 Joined: 06/16/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted June 7, 2017 Just now, PlanetChee said: I doubt your assertion in its entirety because you haven't demonstrated such. That is because you assume that anyone that does not think like you could not possibly have any knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Running Gator Posted June 7, 2017 Group: Royal Member * Followers: 8 Topic Count: 91 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 10,596 Content Per Day: 3.63 Reputation: 2,743 Days Won: 25 Joined: 06/16/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted June 7, 2017 I think it is time for me to move on from this thread, getting hard to breath at the bottom of the dog pile. Thanks all for the stimulating discussion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningGlory Posted June 7, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1,022 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 39,193 Content Per Day: 6.06 Reputation: 9,977 Days Won: 78 Joined: 10/01/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 7, 2017 40 minutes ago, Davida said: You can also SAY the UP is down it does not make it true. No one who hasn't read the Qur'an is knowledgeable about islam. Muslims are permitted to lie to infidels, in fact they're encouraged to do so. Even in friendships we should not be unequally yoked. No true muslim can take an infidel for a friend according to the Qur'an. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningGlory Posted June 7, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1,022 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 39,193 Content Per Day: 6.06 Reputation: 9,977 Days Won: 78 Joined: 10/01/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 7, 2017 39 minutes ago, Davida said: Calling us dogs? I hope not. It's weird; muslims consider dogs to be unclean animals and avoid them. Personally I don't mind if someone considers me a canine; I LIKE dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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