ERRORS of the POST-TRIB. view.

[Marilyn C]

15 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Hello again Marilyn,

I'm not understanding your response I guess in regards to the question.  What I am asking is what your understanding is of the passage from Romans specifically.  What is Paul saying here in your opinion?

Romans 9:6  But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,

If not all of Israel descend from Israel, then who is the Israel Paul is speaking about?

Hi wingnut,

So glad you are on topic. Now I hope I can explain what I think a bit more.

`Romans 9:6  But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,`

Here we read of two groups -

1. Those born of Israel and who will receive the promises given to Israel.

a) Men and women of the OT who believed God for the promises given to them. (Heb. 11)

b) Men and women who come through the trib. and go into the millennial kingdom. (Zech. 13: 8 & 9)

 

2. Those born of Israel but are NOT included in Israel`s inheritance.

a) Rebellious Israeli people who disobey God, (past, present & future).

b) Israeli people who come into the Body of Christ.

 

regards, Marilyn.

[n2thelight]

56 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Shalom, n2thelight.

Sorry, but you're not going to "snow" me with this nonsense; I speak Hebrew! I study Hebrew! And, you DON'T know what you're talking about! In the original texts, it does NOT say "the earth became without form!" It says, "V-haa'aarets haaytaah tohuw vaaVohuw v-choshekh `al pneey t-howm v-ruwach Elohiym mrachefet `al pneey hamaayim:"

Oh but it does

And the earth was without form, and void;
Vav..Erets......hayah..tohu..............bohu;

and darkness was upon the face of the deep.
....choshek...........................tehown

The word for "was" - hayah - is the same word used in Genesis 19:26 where Lot's wife was (hayah) turned into a pillar of salt. The implication is that the word hayah is not simply descriptive, but is active. Furthermore, the word "vav" for "and" can also be read as "but" depending on the context. In the Septuagint it has actually been translated this way. Thus Genesis 1:2 could, or should, read;

"But the earth became (or "had become") without form, and void".

“Without form, and void" has been translated from the Hebrew phrase "tohu vav bohu". The words tohu and bohu are also found in Isaiah 34:11, but is there interpreted differently;

Isaiah 34:11 "But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion (tohu) and the stones of emptiness (bohu)."

Thus “tohu” can also mean "confused", and “bohu” can mean “empty”. "Confused" and "without form" share in common a lack of order, in a place where there should be order. Perhaps, then, the text could be read as follows; "But the earth was in disarray, and empty".

Jeremiah 4:23-26 also uses the phrase "tohu vav bohu", as follows:

“I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form (tohu), and void (bohu); and the heavens, and they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord, and by his fierce anger.”

 

Believe what you want ,as will I 

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Retro,

Please remember what this thread is all about - the errors of the Post-trib. I will have to report to the moderators if people keep talking about other topics. Let`s continue with the topic of the thread, please.

...

Marilyn.

Shalom, Marilyn.

Sorry for my part in taking the thread off its intended course. Sometimes, conversations ... go awry of their own accord.

Getting back on track, however, sometimes requires a re-hashing of the reasons the topic got off course in the first place. As is often the case, if one has a faulty view of Genesis, one will also have a faulty view of Revelation. When one has a proper understanding of what Peter meant in 2 Pet. 3:3-13, it makes a HUGE difference in how one views the end times, since much of what Peter said has not yet been fulfilled. And, the "new heavens and new earth" of 2 Peter is the same as the "new heaven and the new earth" that John saw in Rev. 21:1-2.

When one has an improper understanding of 2 Pet 3:5-6, then he or she may have an improper understanding of verses 7-13, as well! In my mind, it's simple: 5-6 is about the earth and its skies before the Flood, including the Flood, 7-12 is about the earth and its skies after the Flood and before the Fire, including the Fire, and 13 is about the new earth and its skies after the Fire. There was no "gap" between Genesis 1:1 and 2 because that's not the way Hebrew works! Genesis 1:1 is simply a synopsis of what is to follow.

Leaving that behind, posttribulational rapturism involves the REASON for the rapture in the first place. IF it's to "take us to heaven" to get us out of the way so God can "lower the boom," that's going to affect how we view what takes place next, namely the Millennium. And, this has been a source of contention on another front with Keras. The reason for the rapture is contingent upon the reason for the Millennium.

Just some thoughts. Which way do you want this to go?

[wingnut-]

8 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi wingnut,

So glad you are on topic. Now I hope I can explain what I think a bit more.

`Romans 9:6  But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,`

Here we read of two groups -

1. Those born of Israel and who will receive the promises given to Israel.

a) Men and women of the OT who believed God for the promises given to them. (Heb. 11)

b) Men and women who come through the trib. and go into the millennial kingdom. (Zech. 13: 8 & 9)

 

2. Those born of Israel but are NOT included in Israel`s inheritance.

a) Rebellious Israeli people who disobey God, (past, present & future).

b) Israeli people who come into the Body of Christ.

 

regards, Marilyn.

 

Thank you Marilyn,

I thought from your first response this was what you meant but wanted to clarify just to be certain.  I agree with what you are saying here, but I do think there is one other aspect from the passage in question.  Do you think that Paul specifying that not all who DESCEND are from Israel is also including those who are not Jewish?  In the overall context of Romans 9, particularly the verses that follow, Paul talks about the difference regarding the promise through Abraham.  Particularly I am curious what is said in verse 8 below, and what that means in your opinion.

 

Romans 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

 

Who do you believe are the children of the promise?

 

Romans 2:28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. 29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

 

Also, I am curious as to your understanding of this passage from Romans, where Paul also talks about the difference between the physical and spiritual aspect, stating that a Jew is one inwardly based on the Spirit.  Do you think these two things are related, being children of the promise and circumcision of the heart?

God bless

[Keras]

The error of the post-trib rapture?

Simple: there is no such thing as a rapture to heaven for anyone.  The only exception is the two witnesses and they are murdered first. 

We have work to do here on earth and it will go well for those who are seen to be doing what they can do for God, not so well for those who have the fanciful notion they need do nothing and get raptured away before anything nasty happens. 

[Marilyn C]

13 hours ago, n2thelight said:

 

Hi n2thelight,

You have incorrectly posted my name above Retro`s comments in your last post. Could you please correct this.

Marilyn.

[Retrobyter]

14 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi wingnut,

So glad you are on topic. Now I hope I can explain what I think a bit more.

`Romans 9:6  But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,`

Here we read of two groups -

1. Those born of Israel and who will receive the promises given to Israel.

a) Men and women of the OT who believed God for the promises given to them. (Heb. 11)

b) Men and women who come through the trib. and go into the millennial kingdom. (Zech. 13: 8 & 9)

 

2. Those born of Israel but are NOT included in Israel`s inheritance.

a) Rebellious Israeli people who disobey God, (past, present & future).

b) Israeli people who come into the Body of Christ.

 

regards, Marilyn.

Shalom, Marilyn.

I think you need to re-think group #2 in light of Ephesians 2:

Ephesians 2:11-22
11 Wherefore remember, that ye (the Gentile Ephesians to whom Paul was writing) being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ (outside of the Messiah), being aliens from the commonwealth (citizenship) of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God (outside of God) in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus (in the Messiah Yeshua`) ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh (close) by the blood of Christ (the blood of the Messiah).
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain (two) one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off (the Gentile Ephesians), and to them that were nigh (the children of Israel).
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye (the Gentile Ephesians to whom Paul was writing) are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints (the holy ones; that is, the ones consecrated for God), and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself (Yeshua` the Messiah Himself)  being the chief corner stone (capstone);
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
KJV

The point I'm trying to make is this: When we are made "one new man," we are not putting the Jews (or more generally, the children of Israel) into the "Church," but rather God is accepting the Gentiles into the household of God, Yeshua`s Israel - Yeshua`s Kingdom to come, making them fellowcitizens with the saints, the children of Israel, who were consecrated by God for Himself.

The "Church," or rather the "churches," are simply groups of people that gather together for the same purpose. The Greek word, ekkleesia, was also used for the town council of Ephesus (interesting coincidence?) in Acts 19, particularly verses 32, 39, and 41. In the KJV, the word chosen to translate this simply called it "assembly" instead of a "church."

However, ekkleesia is also found in Stephen's sermon in Acts 7:

Acts 7:2-41
2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia (between rivers), before he dwelt in Charran,
3 And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee.
4 Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.
5 And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he (God) promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.
6 And God spake on this wise, That his seed should sojourn in a strange land; and that they should bring them into bondage, and entreat them evil four hundred years.
7 And the nation to whom they shall be in bondage will I judge, said God: and after that shall they come forth, and serve me in this place.
8 And he gave him the covenant of circumcision: and so Abraham begat Isaac, and circumcised him the eighth day; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat the twelve patriarchs.
9 And the patriarchs, moved with envy, sold Joseph into Egypt: but God was with him,
10 And delivered him out of all his afflictions, and gave him favour and wisdom in the sight of Pharaoh king of Egypt; and he made him governor over Egypt and all his house.
11 Now there came a dearth (famine) over all the land of Egypt and Chanaan, and great affliction: and our fathers found no sustenance.
12 But when Jacob heard that there was corn in Egypt, he sent out our fathers first.
13 And at the second time Joseph was made known to his brethren; and Joseph's kindred was made known unto Pharaoh.
14 Then sent Joseph, and called his father Jacob to him, and all his kindred, threescore and fifteen souls.
15 So Jacob went down into Egypt, and died, he, and our fathers,
16 And were carried over into Sychem, and laid in the sepulchre that Abraham bought for a sum of money of the sons of Emmor the father of Sychem.
17 But when the time of the promise drew nigh, which God had sworn to Abraham, the people grew and multiplied in Egypt,
18 Till another king arose, which knew not Joseph.
19 The same dealt subtilly with our kindred, and evil entreated our fathers, so that they cast out their young children, to the end they might not live.
20 In which time Moses was born, and was exceeding fair, and nourished up in his father's house three months:
21 And when he was cast out, Pharaoh's daughter took him up, and nourished him for her own son.
22 And Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and was mighty in words and in deeds.
23 And when he was full forty years old, it came into his heart to visit his brethren the children of Israel.
24 And seeing one of them suffer wrong, he defended him, and avenged him that was oppressed, and smote the Egyptian:
25 For he supposed his brethren would have understood how that God by his hand would deliver them: but they understood not.
26 And the next day he shewed himself unto them as they strove, and would have set them at one again, saying, Sirs, ye are brethren; why do ye wrong one to another?
27 But he that did his neighbour wrong thrust him away, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge over us?
28 Wilt thou kill me, as thou diddest the Egyptian yesterday?
29 Then fled Moses at this saying, and was a stranger in the land of Madian, where he begat two sons.
30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush.
31 When Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold it, the voice of the Lord came unto him,
32 Saying, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold.
33 Then said the Lord to him, Put off thy shoes from thy feet: for the place where thou standest is holy ground.
34 I have seen, I have seen the affliction of my people which is in Egypt, and I have heard their groaning, and am come down to deliver them. And now come, I will send thee into Egypt.
35 This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.
36 He brought them out, after that he had shewed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years.
37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
38 This is he, that was in the church (Greek: ekkleesia) in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,
40 Saying unto Aaron, Make us gods to go before us: for as for this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.
41 And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands.
KJV

Thus, the FIRST "church" was the congregation of the children of Israel that surrounded Mount Sinai when Moses received the "lively oracles" or the "living words" of God to pass on to us.

Thus, going back to Ephesians 2 above, the Gentiles who are grafted into the Olive Tree (Romans 11) are "no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints (the holy ones; that is, the ones consecrated for God), and of the household of God." Thus, we who are Gentiles are no longer "aliens from the commonwealth (citizenship) of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God (outside of God) in the world!"

There was a song I used to sing as a kid, "Every Promise in the Book is Mine."  Its words are...

Every promise in the Book is mine,
every chapter, every verse, every line,
all the blessings of His love divine;
every promise in the Book is mine.

Later, I used to believe that this was not true, that there were some promises made to Israel that didn't belong to me as a Gentile.

Now, I've changed my mind again! As a Gentile who is accepted into the household of God and is now a citizen of Israel, a recipient of the covenants of promise, the promises ARE mine! Through the blood of the Messiah Yeshua`, I am also a member of the tribe of Y'hudah as Yeshua` is! (You are, too.)

The bottom line is this: We have a part in the Millennial Kingdom of God here on this earth. We are PART of those who live and reign with Him, and that's not off in "heaven" somewhere; it's right here on this earth before the Millennium ends with the Great White Throne Judgment.

When Yeshua` gave His parable (Luke 19:11-28), even we who are the Gentiles who are grafted into His Olive Tree (Romans 11:16-25), are recipients of these evaluations and rewards. 

Luke 19:11-28
11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. (Yeshua` HIMSELF said this! Does this sound out of character for Him? It's NOT!)
28 And when he had thus spoken, he went before, ascending up to Jerusalem.
KJV

[Retrobyter]

20 hours ago, n2thelight said:

Bottom line for me is

The earth became void and without form

Shalom, n2thelight.

No, that's not right. The earth WAS void (empty) and without form (unformed as yet).

Quote

With a question we can maybe end this

Do you think you were with God before being born of woman?

Absolutely not. God foreknew me, but I was not yet formed in my mother's womb. Only Adam and Chavah (Eve) were created:

Genesis 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul (a living air-breather).
KJV

The rest of us are ALL "born of woman!" We are ALL formed in our mothers' womb and pass through the birth canal to live outside their bodies as separate individuals!

We ARE our bodies. Without the body, we don't exist. That's why the Resurrection is so important! And, that's why we don't "go to heaven" when we die. We don't exist when we die. To say otherwise is "Christoplatonism," as Randy Alcorn described in his book, Heaven, Chapter 6, location 1134 in the Kindle version:

Quote

Why are we so resistant to the idea that Heaven could be physical? The answer, I believe, is centered in an unbiblical belief that the spirit realm is good and the material world is bad, a view I am calling Christoplatonism. (For a discussion of Christoplatonism's false assumptions, see appendix A.) For our purposes in this chapter, I will summarize this belief that looms like a dark cloud over the common view of Heaven.

Plato, the Greek philosopher, believed that material things, including the human body and the earth, are evil, while immaterial things such as the soul and Heaven are good. This view is called Platonism. The Christian church, highly influenced by Platonism through the teachings of Philo (ca 20 BC-AD 50) and Origen (AD 185-254), among others, came to embrace the "spiritual" view that human spirits are better off without bodies and that Heaven is a disembodied state. They rejected the notion of Heaven as a physical realm and spiritualized or entirely neglected the biblical teaching of resurrected people inhabiting a resurrected Earth.

 I take it a step farther than does Mr. Alcorn. I believe that there's no such thing as an "eternal soul" when one defines "soul" as the "immaterial part of a person." When one understands that we ARE souls when we are alive as "air-breathers," THEN we can rightly define an "eternal soul" as the resurrected person who is resurrected as immortal and incorruptible (1 Cor. 15:53-54) who will be a body that breathes (and blasts) forever. We will be resurrected and THEN we shall see the Messiah reign in Jerusalem along with His family down through the generations. Even David the King will reign with Yeshua` as one of His "princes" or "heroes" (Ezek. 34:24; 37:25). When we "walk on golden streets," it will be when the New Jerusalem (built with golden streets) will descend to the New Earth AFTER the Millennium, AFTER the Fire, AFTER the Great White Throne Judgment, and AFTER the New Earth and New Skies are re-built.

That's the last I will say on this issue. I've said my piece; accept it or reject it. It's up to you what you choose to believe, but this view is consistent with Scripture.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Retrobyter
to fix my flying-finger misspellings

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

 

Hi Retro,

As this is NOT a thread of discussing whether the Body of Christ is now Israel or joined to Israel, I will leave that till its own thread.

Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

10 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Thank you Marilyn,

I thought from your first response this was what you meant but wanted to clarify just to be certain.  I agree with what you are saying here, but I do think there is one other aspect from the passage in question.  Do you think that Paul specifying that not all who DESCEND are from Israel is also including those who are not Jewish?  In the overall context of Romans 9, particularly the verses that follow, Paul talks about the difference regarding the promise through Abraham.  Particularly I am curious what is said in verse 8 below, and what that means in your opinion.

Romans 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

Who do you believe are the children of the promise?

Romans 2:28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. 29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

Also, I am curious as to your understanding of this passage from Romans, where Paul also talks about the difference between the physical and spiritual aspect, stating that a Jew is one inwardly based on the Spirit.  Do you think these two things are related, being children of the promise and circumcision of the heart?

God bless

Hi Wingnut,

(Placing this discussion in context of the thread for others.) We are discussing who the `elect` is from Matthew 24: 31. Some have thought it is the Body of Christ and some Israel. As I have already stated that for the Lord to mean the Body of Christ He would have been deceiving the people of Israel to whom He was speaking, as all they knew was that they were the `elect.` Then also the Lord would have been lying as He would have been revealing the Body of Christ which He explicitly says to Paul that that revelation was not known before. As we well know the Lord is not deceitful or lying, thus when He says, `elect` He means Israel, those to whom He is speaking of their future.

As to Rom. 9 God is saying specifically that it is from Isaac`s line that come the children of the promise. The promised seed is Christ as Galatian`s tells us.

1.  Thus those of Isaac`s line, the children of the promise, are those in Israel of that line who believe God for what He specifically tells them of their inheritance - rulership on earth over the nations.  

2. Those who are born again of Christ are of Abraham`s seed, ie Christ, and are heirs of what God specifically tells us is our inheritance - rulership over the universe. (Rev. 3: 21)

These great topics would benefit from their own thread. I will close this thread soon (you may want to reply) as people are having trouble staying on topic and it may stir them to start those great topics themselves.

have enjoyed talking to you, wingnut. Marilyn.