Thomas Ice on the pretribulation rapture of the Church

[Omegaman 3.0]

1 hour ago, missmuffet said:

One concept I do not agree with Thomas Ice. He says that the rapture can not occur until every born again believer has come to Christ. I do not think that is for the rapture of the Church. I think it is for the second coming.

Hmmm, I would agree with Dr. Ice if he made that point. I also agree with you missmuffet. Of course, I have reasons and qualifications.

9“Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10“At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. 11“Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. 12“Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. 13“But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. 14“This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Seems like the gospel is preached right up until the second coming, as also seen in Rev 14:6

And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;

I would say from those passages that the preaching of the gospel is through to the 2nd coming. Would that preaching just be a taunt? Or is it hoped, that people might still repent. I believe the latter. So there, I am inclined to think that once the last believer has come, His arrival, His presense, the parousia, it truly, truly imminent.

So, if Dr. Ice is right, and the rapture does not occur until the last born again believer has come to Christ, and missmuffet is right, that the last born again believer comes at the 2nd coming.

I suggest, that in the basic sequence of Bible revelation above, that Dr. Ice is correct, because the last born again believer is saved at the end of the Great Tribulation, just before Jesus returns to resurrect dead believers and rapture the living saints when He appears at the second coming, so missmuffet would be correct on the last beleiver at the 2nd coming part. 

51Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 1 Cor 15

[missmuffet]

3 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Hmmm, I would agree with Dr. Ice if he made that point. I also agree with you missmuffet. Of course, I have reasons and qualifications.

9“Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10“At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. 11“Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. 12“Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. 13“But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. 14“This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Seems like the gospel is preached right up until the second coming, as also seen in Rev 14:6

And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;

I would say from those passages that the preaching of the gospel is through to the 2nd coming. Would that preaching just be a taunt? Or is it hoped, that people might still repent. I believe the latter. So there, I am inclined to think that once the last believer has come, His arrival, His presense, the parousia, it truly, truly imminent.

So, if Dr. Ice is right, and the rapture does not occur until the last born again believer has come to Christ, and missmuffet is right, that the last born again believer comes at the 2nd coming.

I suggest, that in the basic sequence of Bible revelation above, that Dr. Ice is correct, because the last born again believer is saved at the end of the Great Tribulation, just before Jesus returns to resurrect dead believers and rapture the living saints when He appears at the second coming, so missmuffet would be correct on the last beleiver at the 2nd coming part. 

51Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 1 Cor 15

I agree with 99.9 % of his stuff but he is not the only show in town.

[Omegaman 3.0]

12 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

I agree with 99.9 % of his stuff but he is not the only show in town.

Yeah, that is true, and these videos, are probably not his entire arsenal. With out going into details, I know he has said some really questionable things in the past, primarily about the history of the pre-trib rapture position, but that does not really effect the veracity of the position, for or against. It is not really relevant, who believed what and when, but it is interesting to note how some of these ideas did get established.

As far as pre-tribbers go, I should probably not express this opinion, but I consider Dr. Ice a bit of a lightweight. He has put considerable effort into the topic, don't get me wrong, but he is not in the same league with Dr. John Walvoord.

[missmuffet]

1 hour ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Yeah, that is true, and these videos, are probably not his entire arsenal. With out going into details, I know he has said some really questionable things in the past, primarily about the history of the pre-trib rapture position, but that does not really effect the veracity of the position, for or against. It is not really relevant, who believed what and when, but it is interesting to note how some of these ideas did get established.

As far as pre-tribbers go, I should probably not express this opinion, but I consider Dr. Ice a bit of a lightweight. He has put considerable effort into the topic, don't get me wrong, but he is not in the same league with Dr. John Walvoord.

Dr. John Walvoord was very good. So is Mark Hitchcock but I consider Thomas Ice to be in their league.