Bethel Church - A Different Gospel

[Joshua-777]

23 minutes ago, ayin jade said:

Not to mention that they ignore scripture which clearly states he has to be above reproach to be a pastor, and the husband of one wife. Not an adulterer.

He's not a pastor, deacon or elder andI might be wrong but don't believe he's ministered at Bethel since he fell.

https://www.morningstarministries.org/resources/special-bulletins/2011/update-todd-bentley-note-bill-johnson#.W42G4H4nbok

[Joshua-777]

13 minutes ago, ayin jade said:

Not according to my bible. It had nothing to do with positioning them in faith for God to move in their lives, but instead Joshua 4:24 so that all the people of the earth might know the hand of the LORD, is mighty and so that you might fear the LORD your God forever. A focus on the Lord, not on man.

When they lost sight of that they stopped taking territory and fell in sin. The testimonies of the Lord position us for Him to move through our lives as well. They inspire faith in the living God.

^{Habikkuk 3:2} Lord, I have heard the report about You and I fear.
O Lord, revive Your work in the midst of the years,
In the midst of the years make it known;
In wrath remember mercy.

^{Judges 6:13} Then Gideon said to him, “O my lord, if the Lord is with us, why then has all this happened to us? And where are all His miracles which our fathers told us about, saying, ‘Did not the Lord bring us up from Egypt?’ But now the Lord has abandoned us and given us into the hand of Midian.” ¹⁴ The Lord looked at him and said, “Go in this your strength and deliver Israel from the hand of Midian. Have I not sent you?”

[Guest shiloh357]

1 hour ago, Joshua-777 said:

I also appreciate your concern and I know you have alot of integrity Cobalt. With the Bethel movement, I have seen too many lives changed and people transformed from their ministry. Many of the students who graduated BSSM are my good friends and I take many of them to the streets to share the Gospel. I see first hand the fruit of their lives. I am also someone who takes everything to scripture. I don't have to agree with everything they do or believe to see the good in it.  I don't take peoples words for it ether, I go to the source.  Can you find me in Bill Johnsons words, him saying we can suck anointing out of graves?

You asked for proof of the impact,  well their missions around the world are a huge example. In Tijuana, I got to visit a house of prayer that specializes in getting girls out of prostitution that was lead by a bssm graduate. By Impact I mean people coming to know Jesus, as well as coming against social injustices.
They are also flooding the streets of Portland where I live in September where thousands of believers and going out to spread the Gospel for an event called Portland 2018. All summer, they have been sending teams and equipping churches to go the streets of Portland and getting those saved connected with local pastors to disciple them. Chris Overstreet, Former Outreach Pastor at Bethel moved up here and is leading this movement.  https://www.portland2018.com/

As far as documented evidence, it's pretty much like trying to go to mainstream media to find good things about trump.
 

The Mormons have an impact in their mission work too.   Most Mormons are converts from mainstream Christianity.   Everything you talk about, can be seen in false gospel organizations and cults.  They all have an "impact."   I know Mormons who are the sweetest, most decent people you would ever want to meet.  They would give you the shirt off your back. 

But the are deceived.  I remember watching TV one night and there was a 60 sec commercial about family values and it was the best ad I had seen on TV.  I honestly thought that it was being produced by Focus on the Family.   I was shocked to discover that it was actually the Mormons who produced it.   It was an amazing commercial.   I can see the draw, I can see how people would be led toward, and attracted to the LDS church.   

False doctrine doesn't come to us looking crazy, necessarily.   It comes to us sweetly, dressed in a suit, with a warm smile and even some good works.   False doctrine is deceiving  because it looks like truth.   No one follows crazy UFO cults and the neo-pagans to any great degree.   The most successful cults are the ones that use the Bible.

Bethel church mixes in just enough truth  to make the error look plausible.  Mission work and humanitarian work and "fruit" doesn't really guarantee that the doctrine is true.   

The glory balls and gold dust and glory clouds are as fake as a 3 dollar bill.   God does not do parlor tricks and those kinds of manifestations.  That is just sensational nonsense.  

And that goes for the fake "resurrections" that are claimed by some of these false apostles.   

[Joshua-777]

2 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

The glory balls and gold dust and glory clouds are as fake as a 3 dollar bill.   God does not do parlor tricks and those kinds of manifestations.  That is just sensational nonsense.  

And that goes for the fake "resurrections" that are claimed by some of these false apostles.   

Lets look at scripture alone and see what it has to say about things like this. The theology of glory clouds, miracles, and strange manifestations are all tied to one thing, God’s manifest Presence. God is omnipresent, yes but through out the bible there are times when there is a manifestation of God’s presence that people can observe and experience. In the Old Testament, a pillar of cloud and a pillar of fire lead the Israelites through the wilderness. This was the manifest presence of God, and when ever it lifted, the Israelites would follow it. The Lord provided bread from heaven from His manifestation and also meat.

Exodus 16:7  And in the morning you will see the glory of the Lord, for He hears your grumblings against the Lord; and what are we, that you grumble against us?” Here you can see the concept of physical objects appearing throughout he cloud of glory. If the bread was from heaven, what about gemstones, gold, or oil manifesting? Scripturally that is not too far fetched and you can say God wouldn’t or doesn’t do that but the burden of proving it through scripture is on you. This passage amazes me, the ground turned into Sapphire and there was an open vision of heaven in the glory.

Exodus 24:9 Then Moses went up, also Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, 10 and they saw the God of Israel. And there was under His feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and it was like the very heavens in its clarity. So back to the cloud of glory. Moses would enter the Tabernacle and God would speak to him in this cloud of glory and God considered it face to face as a man would speak to his friend.

Exodus 33:10 All the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the tabernacle door, and all the people rose and worshiped, each man in his tent door. 11 So the Lord spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. And he would return to the camp, but his servant Joshua the son of Nun, a young man, did not depart from the tabernacle. I love how when Moses went out, Joshua was focused on staying in God’s manifest presence. After this encounter, Moses aged God who He would send with them and God said,

Exodus 33:14 And He said, “My Presence will go with you, and I will give you rest.”

I love Moses’ response, asking to see God;s glory, which God made his goodness pass before him, but also that this presence is what would distinguish Israel from every other nation. They had the tangible presence of God. Exodus 33:15 hen he said to Him, “If Your Presence does not go with us, do not bring us up from here. 16 For how then will it be known that Your people and I have found grace in Your sight, except You go with us? So we shall be separate, Your people and I, from all the people who are upon the face of the earth.”

So this manifest presence of God or glory of God is what separated Israel from every other nation. There are a few more references to His glory but lets flash forward to Solomon. Solomon dedicated his temple and held a tremendous sacrifice to the Lord. When all the worshipers became as one, God’s glory came as a cloud and it actually was so heavy the ministers could no longer minister.

2 Chronicles 5:13 Indeed it came to pass, when the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the Lord, and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of music, and praised the Lord, saying:
“For He is good, For His mercy endures forever,”
that the house, the house of the Lord, was filled with a cloud, 14 so that the priests could not [e]continue ministering because of the cloud; for the glory of the Lord filled the house of God.

1 Kings 8: 10 And it came to pass, when the priests came out of the holy place, that the cloud filled the house of the Lord, 11 so that the priests could not continue ministering because of the cloud; for the glory of the Lord filled the house of the Lord.
12 Then Solomon spoke:
“The Lord said He would dwell in the dark cloud. 13 I have surely built You an exalted house, And a place for You to dwell in forever.”

These passages show the glory of the Lord coming through worship and sacrifice and being so heavy that ministers could no longer minister. Probably because the sheer power and magnitude of His presence caused them to be on the floor. There are many other references to the glory of the Lord in the Prophets, especially in Isaiah, One talks about the heavenly zion and the abiding glory.

Isaiah 4:5hen the Lord will create above every dwelling place of Mount Zion, and above her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day and the shining of a flaming fire by night. For over all the glory there will be a covering.

In the new Testament, the glory doesn’t disappear but it comes in an unexpected way. Jesus came and opened the heavens. He was living House of God at “Bethel” where angels ascended and defended upon Him.

John 1:51 And He said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, hereafter[o] you shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man.”

Jesus does His first Miracle, turning water to wine.

John 2:11This beginning of signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and [a]manifested His glory; and His disciples believed in Him.

Now we see that the glory of the Lord is in a person. Jesus is not only carrying this glory but also manifesting this glory through signs and wonders. Through out the book of John is a promise to see God’s glory, and Jesus told Mary and Martha that they would see God’s glory before He rose Lazarus from the dead in John 11:40.

Jesus prayed an amazing prayer for us. He prayed that we would be one in Him and each other and that His glory is given to us who believe. “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who [j]will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:

SO in unity in Christ, where is glory. Jesus died on a cross, rose again, and then Pentecost happens. Winds blow, tongues of fire land on the disciples and they speak with new tongues, Peter who denied Christ out of fear now boldly preaches to the multitudes and thousands come to the Lord, but the crowd upon looking at them said they were drunk.

Acts 2:13:15 Others mocking said, “They are full of new wine.” For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only [e]the third hour of the day.

So the first outpouring of the Spirit, resulted in them looking like they were drunk. Sometimes the manifest presence of God can cause people to look a little drunk, but we are not to be filled with wine but with the Spirit through worship, similar to worshipers in Solomon’s temple.

Ephesians 5:18 And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord, 20 giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, 21 submitting to one another in the fear of God.

Now if the glory of the Lord came with Solomons temple, how much more us who are His Holy Temple, being built together to be a house for the Holy Spirit?

Ephesians 5:21 In whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. Now back to Acts. The disciples were filled with the Holy Spirit, Peter and John prays for a lame man who walks and they get beat for it, they respond by praying for God to do more miracles and more boldness to preach God’s word. The place was shaken and they were all filled. God’s manifest presence had a physical effect on the area.

Acts 4:31And when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke the word of God with boldness.

Weren’t they all filled with the Holy Spirit at Pentecost? Yet they were filled again. You see the result of that prayer in the next chapter.

Acts 5:4 And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women, 15 so that they brought the sick out into the streets and laid them on beds and couches, that at least the shadow of Peter passing by might fall on some of them. 16 Also a multitude gathered from the surrounding cities to Jerusalem, bringing sick people and those who were tormented by unclean spirits, and they were all healed. So there was such an anointing that even peters shadow was healing the sick. This was an increase of the glory of God, the manifestation of the Spirit on his life. Phillip carried this so much that when he entered a town demons would screech out in fear. Acts 8:6 And the multitudes with one accord heeded the things spoken by Philip, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 7 For unclean spirits, crying with a loud voice, came out of many who were possessed; and many who were paralyzed and lame were healed. 8 And there was great joy in that city

As believers, I believe Jesus’ prayer for His glory to be given to us is still valid and His presence changes everything. Why wouldn’t his shows up in a cloud during a service where thousands of people are worshiping Him in one accord? During the Azusa Street Revival in 1906, there was such a manifestation of this glory that fire trucks were called to put out the fire on top of the building. There was a cloud that would appear during the services and that was the birthplace of the pentecostal and charismatic denominations around today. Same thing happened during the Indonesian revival when the Holy Spirit fell on a Church and many were baptized in the Holy Spirit, the end result was over 100,000 people converting to Jesus (Mel Tari - Like a Mighty Rising Wind). This happened in Brownsville, Toronto, Argentina, and Pensacola at the same time. It was this glory that drove the great awakening in the 1700’s and 1800’s. This is so much bigger than a cloud, or gold dust, but this is about seeing and experiencing God’s manifest presence on the earth. This is about His Kingdom coming on earth as it is in heaven. One day we will be in the fullness of it, but right now, it’s at hand, “Within Reach”

[Guest shiloh357]

55 minutes ago, Joshua-777 said:

Now if the glory of the Lord came with Solomons temple, how much more us who are His Holy Temple, being built together to be a house for the Holy Spirit?
 

That's  what I mean when I say that you don't take events in the Bible and make doctrine out of them or expect God to replicate the same thing, which what false teachers do.   

The false "Word of Faith" teachers use the story of Elijah and the widow of Zarepeth to con the poor into giving them money, as if these teachers are Elijah.  These charlatans con people who should be spending their money on necessities to send that money to them based off of that story and promising that God will do for them what he did for the widow of Zarapeth. 

Just because the glory filled the old temple, it is not an indicator that God is going to do that in churches and most of that stuff is fake, anyway.  It's all about sensationalism. 

Trying drum up sensationalist garbage like glory clouds and gold dust doesn't glorify God; it simply satisfies carnal, unregenerate appetites of those in attendance.  It's a complete sham.    And the undiscerning fall for it every time.

[angels4u]

Joshua,please take the time to listen to this ,there might be stuff happening in that church which you are not aware off?

 

https://olivetreeviews.org/radio-archives/wolves-not-sparing-the-flock-part-1/

https://olivetreeviews.org/radio-archives/wolves-not-sparing-the-flock-part-2

 

 

 

https://grandmageri422.me/2018/06/23/seducing-the-vulnerable-exposing-the-devilish-doctrines-of-bethel-church-of-redding-ca/

[Joshua-777]

18 minutes ago, Cobalt1959 said:

Yes, they do.  You do not seem to be able to grasp the fact that the reason Bill Johnson, Beni Johnson, Kris Valotton and others at Bethel visit the graves of people like Wigglesworth, Lake, and others is exactly because of what Bill Johnson said.  You keep trying to divorce the behavior from the words and that does not work.  There is no reason to visit the graves of any church leaders unless one is part of their immediate family.  I have no desire to go to the grave of anyone who is not a member of my family or an especially close friend.  They visit those graves specifically to get this "mantle" that Johnson talks about in his book.  Otherwise, there is no reason for being there.  There is no reason to lie on the graves.  Johnson got this heretical junk from Benny Hinn.  He's friends with the guy and has had him speak at Bethel before.  Hinn does this exact thing at Aimee Semple McPherson's grave.

There would be absolutely no reason for the Holy Spirit to inhabit the bones of a dead person.  There is absolutely no biblical precedent for someone receiving some "mantle" or "anointing" from a dead person.  Both the Prophets and the Apostles would find the concept repugnant.  Johnson claims these thing have "lain where they were left," and that we can "recover" them.  They use these graves as a point of contact for a practice that is not endorsed in scripture at all.  There isn't even a singular prototype for it.

Bill Johnson himself said they would visit graves of famous revivalists and use that is a marking point to ask God to do something like that again in the interview with Dr. Brown. There is no anointing in graves or corpses and God is not the God of the dead but of the living. The quote about Mantles, assignments, etc. for us to pick up are in the heavenly realm released through the Holy Spirit. As I said, I haven't searched scripture over this issue but you are misinterpreting what they believe. If you believe they are in heresy, ok, but find me one quote where any of them say you can receive an anointing from a gravestone? And if they believe it, why go through such great lengths to deny it, wouldn't it be easier to just say, we believe this?

[Guest shiloh357]

19 minutes ago, Joshua-777 said:

 And if they believe it, why go through such great lengths to deny it, wouldn't it be easier to just say, we believe this?

False teachers and cults have a public face and a private face.   Mormons, for example, hide what they really believe in public.  You cannot get a Mormon to get on TV and admit in public that they believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers.   You cannot get them to admit publicly that they believe that they will one day be gods in charge of their own universe and that the God of the Bible was once  a man who became a god who created his own universe.   But that is what they believe. 

It's not until you get into it, deep into it that you find out what false teachers really teach.  Its' the same with Word of Faith teachers.   In public, they are conservative evangelicals; but, when you dig down beyond the surface, they are rife with heresies. 

[Joshua-777]

39 minutes ago, angels4u said:

Joshua,please take the time to listen to this ,there might be stuff happening in that church which you are not aware off?

 

https://olivetreeviews.org/radio-archives/wolves-not-sparing-the-flock-part-1/

https://olivetreeviews.org/radio-archives/wolves-not-sparing-the-flock-part-2

 

 

 

https://grandmageri422.me/2018/06/23/seducing-the-vulnerable-exposing-the-devilish-doctrines-of-bethel-church-of-redding-ca/

Hi Angel4U, I listened to part 1 and so far it goes against some foundational teachings of Bethel. They do not believe the glory of God left Jerusalem and came to Redding, they believe all believers carry the presence of God though the Holy Spirit. The "if you dont go God will make you sick" Is directly against a core teaching "that God doesn't give people sickness" The rest is the same heresy hunter warnings you see on youtube. Please go to the source. Find sermons by Bill Johnson or other leaders from Bethel and go to scripture and find what they say and where they error.

Also, I can't say I agree on everything they teach, but minor differences in theology is not a salvation issue. 

[Joshua-777]

25 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

False teachers and cults have a public face and a private face.   Mormons, for example, hide what they really believe in public.  You cannot get a Mormon to get on TV and admit in public that they believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers.   You cannot get them to admit publicly that they believe that they will one day be gods in charge of their own universe and that the God of the Bible was once  a man who became a god who created his own universe.   But that is what they believe. 

It's not until you get into it, deep into it that you find out what false teachers really teach.  Its' the same with Word of Faith teachers.   In public, they are conservative evangelicals; but, when you dig down beyond the surface, they are rife with heresies. 

But those who have graduated the school, teachers, etc. don't believe in grave sucking, they are not taught that and will say that is ridiculous. If you have disagreements with their teaching, ok, but please use their teaching. Saying cult, false, heresy, and fake is an opinion of yours and not evidence.

Edited September 4, 2018 by Joshua-777