Lucifers creation and rebellion.

[HAZARD]

I wrote this and I will stand by it.

What were/ are people ignorant of?

2 Peter 3:5-7; 

V. 5, For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
 V. 6, Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
  V. 7, But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

This is what men are willingly ignorant of.

That by the Word of God the heavens were created of old (V. 5: Ps. 68:33; 93:2; 102:25; Mic. 5:2).

That the earth was established in and out of the water (V.5; Ps. 24:2; 136:6).

That the world "that then was" refers to the pre-Adamite world or social system which was destroyed by a great universal flood before Adam (V. 6: Gen. 1:2; Ps. 104:5-9; Jer. 4:23-26; Isa. 14:12-14; Ez. 28:11-17).

That the heavens and the earth "which are now" were restored from chaos and judgment about 6000 years ago in Adams day (V. 7; Gen. 1:3-2:25).

That the heavens and the earth entered their second sinful career through Adam and are now reserved for a second universal renovation by fire at the time of the great white throne judgment at the end of the Millennium (V. 7, 10-12; Rom. 8:18-25; Heb. 1:10-12, 12:25-28; Rev. 20:7-15).

Two social systems are mentioned by Peter: one was before the one which is now, and the other after the one that then was (V. 6-7).

The former social system "Perished" by water and the present one will perish by fire (V. 6-7).

The former social system was created "In the beginning" and was destroyed by the flood of Gen. 1:1-2). The present social system was created in 6 days since the flood of Gen. 1:2 (Gen. 1:3-2:25).

The flood of Noah did not destroy all the social system on earth between Adam and Noah, for some were preserved in the Arc to continue that social system after the flood; but the social system "that then was" before the present one utterly perished.

Not one man, bird, or animal was left alive (V. 6; Gen. 1:2; Jer. 4: 23-26).

No reference in Scripture can be found of a change in the heavens and the earth in Noahs day, as in Adams day (gen. 1:3-2:25). This proves that the world "that then was" had to be before Adams day because the heavens and the earth "which are now" came into existence at that time and not at the time of Noah.

There was no man, bird, vegetation, or any life left after the flood of V. 6; Gen. 1:2. They were made again in the 6 days (Gen. 2:4-9). That they had been here before Adams day is clear from Jer. 4:23-26.

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5, For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water, and in the water: 

This proves the world was not created all wet as I  Gen. 1:2, but dry, then flooded and later restored to a dry state as in Gen. 1:9-10.

The world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished.

The world, Greek, kosmos, social system. The one that then was being deluged with water perished, (V. 6). Here Peter is referring to the pre-Adamite world that "TOTALLY "perished by the flood of Gen. 1:2; Ps.104:5-9. There was no man, bird, or any other life left after this flood (Jer. 4:23-26).

  23, I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void;  and the heavens they had no light. 
    24, I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
    25, I beheld, and, lo, there was NO MAN, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
    26, I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

The only time the earth has ever been without form and void was before the 6 days of Gen. 1:3-2:25 when it was made chaos through the fall of Lucifer and the pre-Adamites, when God brought the first great universal flood upon the earth to destroy "ALL LIFE" (Gen. 1:2; 2 Peter 3:5-7). The statement "without form and void" means desolate and empty. The only time the sun, moon, and stars of heaven were forbidden to give light on the earth was in the period before the six days of re-creation, as in Gen. 1:2. There had been light on the earth when it was first created, "In the beginning (Gen. 1:1), and there has been light ever since the first day of Gen. 1:3-31; so the period of such darkness took place on the earth sometime after the beginning and before the restoration to a second habitable state in the six days of gen. 1:3-2:25.

Permanent and eternal laws were given to the sun, moon, and stars at this time as proved in Jer. 31:35-36; Gen. 1:14-19; Ps. 72:5, 17; 89:35-37.

One thing is certain, Jer. 4:23-26 could not apply to the time of Noah, for at that time the heavens had lights, and there were men, birds, animals, and fruitful places, (Noah sent out a bird and it returned with a leaf), left on the earth after Noahs flood; whereas in the case of the curse brought upon the original earth, none of these things remained. Therefore if we rightly divide the Word of Truth we should associate Jer. 4:23-26, with Gen. 1:2 and 2 Peter 3:5-6, recognising that there had been light, fixed mountains and hills, men and birds, fruitful places, and cities on the earth before this curse, and before Adam and the six days of restoration to a second habitable state as in Gen. 1:3-2:25.

The purpose of God showing Jeremiah the total destruction of life on the earth in Jer. 4:23-26 was to reveal how the land of Juda would be destroyed, and to make a comparison between the two times. In the original judgment on the whole earth all life had been destroyed, but in Judah God was to make an exception; He declared He would not make a full end on the original earth (V. 27).

 

[1to3]

1 hour ago, HAZARD said:

 

What were/ are people ignorant of?

2 Peter 3:5-7; 

V. 5, For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
 V. 6, Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
  V. 7, But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

This is what men are willingly ignorant of.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

For this they willingly are ignorant of,.... Namely, what follows; for as these men were such as had professed Christianity, and had the advantage of revelation, and had the opportunity of reading the Scriptures, they might have known that the heavens and the earth were from the beginning; and that they were made by the word of God; and that the earth was originally in such a position and situation as to be overflowed with a flood, and that it did perish by a general inundation; and that the present heavens and earth are kept and reserved for a general burning; and it might be discerned in nature, that there are preparations making for an universal conflagration; but all this they chose not to know, and affected ignorance of: particularly

that by the word of God the heavens were of old: not only in the times of Noah, but "from the beginning"; as the Ethiopic version reads, and which agrees with the account in Genesis 1:1; by "the heavens" may be meant both the third heaven, and the starry heavens, and the airy heavens, with all their created inhabitants; and especially the latter, since these were concerned in, and affected with the general deluge; and these were in the beginning of time, out of nothing brought into being, and so were not eternal, and might be destroyed again, or at least undergo a change, even though they were of old, and of long duration: for it was "by the word of God" that they at first existed, and were so long preserved in being; either by the commanding word of God, by his powerful voice, his almighty fiat, who said, Let it be done, and it was done, and who commanded beings to rise up out of nothing, and they did, and stood fast; and so the Arabic version renders it, "by the command of God"; or by his eternal Logos, the essential Word of God, the second Person in the Trinity, who is often in Scripture called the Word, and the Word of God, and, as some think, by the Apostle Peter, 1 Peter 1:23, and certain it is that the creation of all things is frequently ascribed to him; see John 1:16; wherefore by the same Word they might be dissolved, and made to pass away, as they will:

and the earth standing out of the water and in the water; that is, "by the Word of God"; for this phrase, in the original text, is placed after this clause, and last of all; and refers not only to the being of the heavens of old, but to the rise, standing, and subsistence of the earth, which is here particularly described for the sake of the deluge, the apostle afterwards mentions: and it is said to be "standing out of the water", or "consisting out of it"; it consists of it as a part; the globe of the earth is terraqueous, partly land and partly water; and even the dry land itself has its rise and spring out of water; the first matter that was created is called the deep, and waters in which darkness was, and upon which the Spirit of God moved, Genesis 1:2; agreeably to which Thales the Milesian asserted (t), that water was the principle of all things; and the Ethiopic version here renders the words thus, "and the Word of God created also the earth out of water, and confirmed it": the account the Jews give of the first formation of the world is this (u);

"at first the world was , "water in water"; what is the sense (of that passage Genesis 1:2 "and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters?" he returned, and made it snow; he casteth forth his ice like morsels, Psalm 147:17; he returned and made it earth; "for to the snow he saith, Be thou earth", Job 37:6, and the earth stood upon the waters; "to him that stretched out the earth above the waters", Psalm 136:6;''

however, certain it is, that the earth was first covered with water, when at the word, and by the command of God, the waters fled and hasted away, and were gathered into one place, and the dry land rose up and appeared; and then it was that it "stood out of the water"; see Genesis 1:9; moreover, the earth consists, or is kept and held together by water; there is a general humidity or moisture that runs through it, by which it is compacted together, or otherwise it would resolve into dust, and by which it is fit for the production, increase, and preservation of vegetables and other things, which it otherwise would not be: and it is also said to stand "in the water", or by the water; upon it, according to Psalm 24:2; or rather in the midst of it, there being waters above the firmament or expanse; in the airy heavens, in the clouds all around the earth, called the windows of heaven; and water below the firmament or expanse, in the earth itself; besides the great sea, a large body of waters is in the midst of the earth, in the very bowels of it, which feed rivers, and form springs, fountains and wells, called "the fountains of the great deep", Genesis 7:11; and in this position and situation was the earth of old, and so was prepared in nature for a general deluge, and yet was preserved firm and stable by the word of God, for a long series of time; so the Arabic version renders it, "and the earth out of the water, and in the water, stood stable, by the command of God"; but when it was his pleasure, he brought the flood on the world of the ungodly, of which an account follows.

http://biblehub.com/commentaries/2_peter/3-5.htm

 

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, HAZARD said:

 

Not one man, bird, or animal was left alive (V. 6; Gen. 1:2; Jer. 4: 23-26).

 

Bible Question:

If Adam and Eve were the first people on the earth, then explain Jeremiah 4:23-28. What was he talking about? There had to be people to build the fruitful place and the city.

Bible Answer:

Here is the passage you are asking about,

I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; and to the heavens, and they had no light. I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, and all the hills moved to and fro. I looked, and behold, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens had fled. I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness, and all its cities were pulled down before the LORD, before His fierce anger. For thus says the LORD, “The whole land shall be a desolation, yet I will not execute a complete destruction. “For this the earth shall mourn and the heavens above be dark, because I have spoken, I have purposed, and I will not change My mind, nor will I turn from it.” (NASB) Jeremiah 4:23-28

The context of Jeremiah 4 will help us understand the meaning of this passage. Therefore, the first thing we want to do is know what was said before and after verses 23-28.

The Context

Jeremiah 4:1 starts with this statement,

“If you will return, O Israel,” declares the LORD . . . (NASB) Jeremiah 4:1

This first verse tells us that God is speaking to the people of Israel. Then in Jeremiah 4:4 God warns them to repent of their sins or His wrath will come upon them. Then in verse 14, God warns them again,

Wash your heart from evil, O Jerusalem, that you may be saved . . . (NASB) Jeremiah 4:14

God is warning them that destruction is coming upon the land of Israel unless they repent of their sins. The warnings continue. Finally in verses 23-28, the destruction of the land of Israel is described in dramatic imagery. In order to show how serious God is, the prophet uses imagery from Genesis 1:2 and says the land will be “formless and void.” If we look at the verses just after this passage, we see soldiers, death, destruction, and people.

This means that Jeremiah 4:23-28 is describing a military invasion. History tells us that it is the Babylonian army which did this. The description is the coming disaster upon the land of Israel.

Fruitful Land

The beautiful land is the land of Israel. In Jeremiah 2:7 God tells us that the fruitful land is “My land.” The fruitful land is symbolic language for the Promised Land, the land of Israel.

Conclusion

Jeremiah 4:23-28 is not talking about the creation of the world. The fruitful land is the land of Israel, and the passage is talking about the destruction of the people and the desolation of the land because of their unwillingness to repent of their sins. God always gives men and women an opportunity to repent of their sins. But when they refuse, judgment comes. God is looking for men and women of godly character. God calls every person to believe in Jesus Christ in order to have their sins forgiven.

https://www.neverthirsty.org/bible-qa/qa-archives/question/does-jeremiah-423-28-imply-that-adam-and-eve-were-not-the-first-couple/

[Michael Fernandez]

Genesis Chap1 V28 comparitive translations.docx

[Michael Fernandez]

5 hours ago, HAZARD said:

Can you answer these questions?

How could the stars and sons of God shout and sing for joy when God laid the foundation of the Earth as in Job 38:4-7, if the Earth was created in the third day and the sun, moon, and stars in the fourth day of Gen. 1:9-19?

From the Institute for Creation Research's website, icr.org

Job 38:4

Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5

Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6

Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7

When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

 

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New Defender's Study Bible Notes

Job 38:4

38:4 Where wast thou. This first question is a rebuke to those who try to explain origins by present processes—that is, by uniformitarianism (note also II Peter 3:3-6). The creation of the entire universe had been completed in all perfection by God Himself, by processes no longer in operation (Genesis 2:1-4). Ever since Nimrod, however, men have tried to explain origins by innate evolutionary processes, and this is impossible as well as blasphemous.

Job 38:7

38:7 morning stars. The stars of heaven were not made until the fourth day of creation week, whereas the “foundations of the earth” had been laid on the third day. Thus the “morning stars” were the same as the “sons of God,” or the angels (Job 1:6; 2:1); this verse is an example of Hebrew poetic parallelism.

[Michael Fernandez]

34 minutes ago, 1to3 said:

The context of Jeremiah 4 will help us understand the meaning of this passage. Therefore, the first thing we want to do is know what was said before and after verses 23-28.

The Context

Shame on you 1to3!  How dare you bring up "context."  Oh, the horror!  LOL!

 

[Michael Fernandez]

21 minutes ago, Michael Fernandez said:

Genesis Chap1 V28 comparitive translations.docx

How about that?  4 hours worth of work and all that remains is this. 

 

[hmbld]

Context is still important. Nice work 1to3. Every claim about pre-adamite world is a misuse of scripture. 

[HAZARD]

Michael Fernandez From the Institute for Creation Research's website, icr.org

Job 38:4

Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 

. . . Man was not even created then

 

5

Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 

. . . God laid the measures thereof.

 

6

Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 

. . . . They hang upon nothing.

 

7

When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

. . . . This proves beyond doubt the angels, were already created when God laid the foundations of the world, "THAT  THEN WAS," not the world "THAT NOW IS."

[1to3]

18 hours ago, Michael Fernandez said:

From the Institute for Creation Research's website, icr.org

Job 38:4

Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5

Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6

Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7

When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

 

Powered by phpBible.org

 

New Defender's Study Bible Notes

Job 38:4

38:4 Where wast thou. This first question is a rebuke to those who try to explain origins by present processes—that is, by uniformitarianism (note also II Peter 3:3-6). The creation of the entire universe had been completed in all perfection by God Himself, by processes no longer in operation (Genesis 2:1-4). Ever since Nimrod, however, men have tried to explain origins by innate evolutionary processes, and this is impossible as well as blasphemous.

Job 38:7

38:7 morning stars. The stars of heaven were not made until the fourth day of creation week, whereas the “foundations of the earth” had been laid on the third day. Thus the “morning stars” were the same as the “sons of God,” or the angels (Job 1:6; 2:1); this verse is an example of Hebrew poetic parallelism.

Thank M. Michael Fernandez, for your research into this subject. I really appreciated what you presented.

 Alleluia Great! 

 

[Quasar93]

On 12/3/2017 at 6:43 PM, HAZARD said:

I wrote this and I will stand by it.

What were/ are people ignorant of?

2 Peter 3:5-7; 

V. 5, For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
 V. 6, Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
  V. 7, But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

This is what men are willingly ignorant of.

That by the Word of God the heavens were created of old (V. 5: Ps. 68:33; 93:2; 102:25; Mic. 5:2).

That the earth was established in and out of the water (V.5; Ps. 24:2; 136:6).

That the world "that then was" refers to the pre-Adamite world or social system which was destroyed by a great universal flood before Adam (V. 6: Gen. 1:2; Ps. 104:5-9; Jer. 4:23-26; Isa. 14:12-14; Ez. 28:11-17).

That the heavens and the earth "which are now" were restored from chaos and judgment about 6000 years ago in Adams day (V. 7; Gen. 1:3-2:25).

That the heavens and the earth entered their second sinful career through Adam and are now reserved for a second universal renovation by fire at the time of the great white throne judgment at the end of the Millennium (V. 7, 10-12; Rom. 8:18-25; Heb. 1:10-12, 12:25-28; Rev. 20:7-15).

Two social systems are mentioned by Peter: one was before the one which is now, and the other after the one that then was (V. 6-7).

The former social system "Perished" by water and the present one will perish by fire (V. 6-7).

The former social system was created "In the beginning" and was destroyed by the flood of Gen. 1:1-2). The present social system was created in 6 days since the flood of Gen. 1:2 (Gen. 1:3-2:25).

The flood of Noah did not destroy all the social system on earth between Adam and Noah, for some were preserved in the Arc to continue that social system after the flood; but the social system "that then was" before the present one utterly perished.

Not one man, bird, or animal was left alive (V. 6; Gen. 1:2; Jer. 4: 23-26).

No reference in Scripture can be found of a change in the heavens and the earth in Noahs day, as in Adams day (gen. 1:3-2:25). This proves that the world "that then was" had to be before Adams day because the heavens and the earth "which are now" came into existence at that time and not at the time of Noah.

There was no man, bird, vegetation, or any life left after the flood of V. 6; Gen. 1:2. They were made again in the 6 days (Gen. 2:4-9). That they had been here before Adams day is clear from Jer. 4:23-26.

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5, For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water, and in the water: 

This proves the world was not created all wet as I  Gen. 1:2, but dry, then flooded and later restored to a dry state as in Gen. 1:9-10.

The world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished.

The world, Greek, kosmos, social system. The one that then was being deluged with water perished, (V. 6). Here Peter is referring to the pre-Adamite world that "TOTALLY "perished by the flood of Gen. 1:2; Ps.104:5-9. There was no man, bird, or any other life left after this flood (Jer. 4:23-26).

  23, I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void;  and the heavens they had no light. 
    24, I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
    25, I beheld, and, lo, there was NO MAN, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
    26, I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

The only time the earth has ever been without form and void was before the 6 days of Gen. 1:3-2:25 when it was made chaos through the fall of Lucifer and the pre-Adamites, when God brought the first great universal flood upon the earth to destroy "ALL LIFE" (Gen. 1:2; 2 Peter 3:5-7). The statement "without form and void" means desolate and empty. The only time the sun, moon, and stars of heaven were forbidden to give light on the earth was in the period before the six days of re-creation, as in Gen. 1:2. There had been light on the earth when it was first created, "In the beginning (Gen. 1:1), and there has been light ever since the first day of Gen. 1:3-31; so the period of such darkness took place on the earth sometime after the beginning and before the restoration to a second habitable state in the six days of gen. 1:3-2:25.

Permanent and eternal laws were given to the sun, moon, and stars at this time as proved in Jer. 31:35-36; Gen. 1:14-19; Ps. 72:5, 17; 89:35-37.

One thing is certain, Jer. 4:23-26 could not apply to the time of Noah, for at that time the heavens had lights, and there were men, birds, animals, and fruitful places, (Noah sent out a bird and it returned with a leaf), left on the earth after Noahs flood; whereas in the case of the curse brought upon the original earth, none of these things remained. Therefore if we rightly divide the Word of Truth we should associate Jer. 4:23-26, with Gen. 1:2 and 2 Peter 3:5-6, recognising that there had been light, fixed mountains and hills, men and birds, fruitful places, and cities on the earth before this curse, and before Adam and the six days of restoration to a second habitable state as in Gen. 1:3-2:25.

The purpose of God showing Jeremiah the total destruction of life on the earth in Jer. 4:23-26 was to reveal how the land of Juda would be destroyed, and to make a comparison between the two times. In the original judgment on the whole earth all life had been destroyed, but in Judah God was to make an exception; He declared He would not make a full end on the original earth (V. 27).

 

 

 

Yes, quite right.  According to the Scriptures, this old earth has stood in TWO global floods.  The one God restored and added to His original creation and the one of Noah's time.  Here is more about this issue for those who are interested.  It is a lengthy read, so I will provide the only the link to it.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/deeperwalk/was-there-life-on-earth-before-adam-t3395164.html

 

 

Quasar93