Who are the twenty four Elders around the throne of God in Rev.4:4 ?

[WilliamL]

26 minutes ago, Uriah said:

John 3:13- And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Do you deny it? ...

So it is clear that pre/post crucifixion, NOBODY has entered heaven but Jesus!

Enoch did. The active indicative verb in question therefore seems to mean that Jesus was able to ascend under His own will, whereas all others were/will be passively taken up. 

26 minutes ago, Uriah said:

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

This is fundamental Christian doctrine; do you deny it?

Have you seen anything I wrote that warrants such a thing?

Certainly. You said "He (Jesus) had no sin." (Not, Jesus did not sin.) Your statement defies Christian doctrine that --

1 Peter 2:24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree...

Edited July 25, 2023 by WilliamL

[Uriah]

3 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Enoch did.

In the NLT, but not the other versions or the manuscript. I have read that he was "translated". Carried. Several examples are in scripture.

 

3 hours ago, WilliamL said:

"He (Jesus) had no sin." (Not, Jesus did not sin.) Your statement defies Christian doctrine that --

Word games. 

And then are you then denying Jesus about no man ascending to heaven, right?

[WilliamL]

16 hours ago, Uriah said:

And then are you then denying Jesus about no man ascending to heaven, right

Already explained. Jesus was not denying the scriptures:

2 Kings 2:1 When the LORD was about to take Elijah up to heaven in a whirlwind, Elijah and Elisha were traveling from Gilgal. ... 11 As they were walking along and talking, suddenly a chariot of fire appeared, drawn by horses of fire. It drove between the two men, separating them, and Elijah was carried by a whirlwind into heaven.

You said "He (Jesus) had no sin." Your statement defies Christian doctrine that --

2 Cor. 5:21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us...

Not "word games," as you claim, but established Christian doctrine.

[Uriah]

On 7/20/2023 at 6:57 PM, WilliamL said:

As in Lev. 16, so in Hebrews 9: two atonements, one for the priests, the second for the people.

THIS strongly implies that Jesus had to be atoned for. (you assert it is for having two natures)

Atonement is for sins. When I say He had no sin, you say He DID. (for bearing our iniquities) Perhaps its because I have never people state it as you did about Him having sin. (you said, sure he did) THAT I said it seems like a word game. Or a way to show how slick you are.

Do you TRULY believe I or anyone at this site that Jesus was NOT made sin for us? 

 

Now tell me how Jesus is wrong by saying that "no man has ascended up to heaven..." I say it is Jesus' doctrine.

 

[WilliamL]

Uriah, I have already answered the same questions of yours multiple times, and won't keep on doing so. Plenty of information has been presented to let others make up their own minds, which is the reason I minister here. Based on my long years in Christian forums, I never expect to see anyone I'm debating with change their views.

So will be moving on to other topics.

[tatwo]

On 6/12/2023 at 1:11 PM, WilliamL said:

Shortly after His resurrection and ascension to heaven, Jesus told His disciples,

Matt. 28:18 ... “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth."

There is no evidence at all that these 24 came into their heavenly authority before Jesus came into His. On the contrary, they could not have been redeemed from their sins until after Christ's resurrection and ascension unto the Father.

Ah...but who are these characters? Are they literal 24 men or symbolic? The scene in which they are depicted in Revelation 4 these 24 elders and the 4 living creatures are in direct direct proximity to the throne of God...a scene like concentric circles with the inner most or center being the throne of God on which sits the Lamb.

Then also in the center and around the throne, four living creatures full of eyes in front and behind...so these guys are seemingly on and around the throne of God. Then around the throne are these twenty four elders and then a numberless outer circle of angels.

12 is a number of Gods governance...12 sons Israel...12 apostles...12 stars in the crown...12...organization. The kingdom of God is in two realms in heaven and on earth...now given their proximity to the throne of God...these guys are the symbol of the Lord's rule...rule in heaven and on earth. Remember this is seen in heaven it is a spiritual encounter.

  

[WilliamL]

17 minutes ago, tatwo said:

Ah...but who are these characters? Are they literal 24 men or symbolic?

Literal. There is no case in the OT or NT where "elder" does not refer to an individual man, and on two occasions one individual from these 24 speaks personally to John. Rev. 5:5; 7:13 Symbols don't have personal conversations!

[tatwo]

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

Literal. There is no case in the OT or NT where "elder" does not refer to an individual man, and on two occasions one individual from these 24 speaks personally to John. Rev. 5:5; 7:13 Symbols don't have personal conversations!

I know you have spent more than a considerable amount of time in this study WilliamL I used to read and study your “worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1403-index-and-summaries-of-articles” before it disappeared. Having said that…I think that at this point…sooner or later, you will find that your “symbols don’t have personal conversations” statement as patently incorrect. In heaven they do…does that really need to be said?

Daniel 10…Daniel has a “vision” and it is concerning a “certain man” the “symbolic” description is very much like Ezekiel and John’s depiction of the four living creatures…I might add. This “certain man” spoke…Daniel heard the sound of words…in Daniel 12…one of the men one the river bank asked this “certain man” a question, Daniel hears this man and sees him in this “vision.” It looks like Daniel asked him a question and he answers.

The whole scene of Revelation 4 & 5 is happening in heaven…the environment itself is symbolic…I mean consider the description of the “One” sitting on the throne…One…”like the son of man”…that is symbolic...Revelation 1…He speaks.

These four living creatures are symbolic…they speak and it sounds like thunder…they also announce the four horseman as the Lamb breaks the seals and they talk to John also…

I am not going to bother with your comments on “elder” because it does not append to the scene taking place in heaven with John and what he is encountering. Everything John sees is symbolic…everything. There is no actual literal throne…are you kidding me?

Who was it that was worthy to open the scrolls? Was it the Lion or the Lamb? Yes...because they are symbols…and they speak…to man…to the horseman...to the angels...and in this case John…for goodness sakes WilliamL…so was it the Lion or the Lamb that said…"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

The throne of God is symbolic of His eternal power and authority and the Lamb sitting on the throne of eternity is symbolic as well…it is the only sacrifice God the Father would accept…the Lion of the tribe of Judah is symbolized as the “overcomer” they speak…there is no value in taking a “literal physical” perspective on any of what is happening with John in Revelation 1, 4, 5…WilliamL…it does not play out in the big picture and it is not what the Lamb is saying today.

[WilliamL]

1 hour ago, tatwo said:

WilliamL I used to read and study your “worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1403-index-and-summaries-of-articles” before it disappeared. 

My new blog index URL  is at the bottom of this and all my posts.

1 hour ago, tatwo said:

there is no value in taking a “literal physical” perspective on any of what is happening [in heaven]...

It is all very literal, but not physical. A spiritual reality is every bit as real as a material one, because the material world had/has it's origin from the spiritual world. 

1 hour ago, tatwo said:

Everything John sees is symbolic…everything. There is no actual literal throne…are you kidding me?

No, I'm not kidding you, but you seem to think that God is. Everything in your argument is based upon your personal rationalizations. You haven't provided one single scripture that says everything John saw is merely symbolic. Certainly symbolism is involved, but that there throne is as real as anything else in Creation.

[tatwo]

55 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

It is all very literal, but not physical. A spiritual reality is every bit as real as a material one, because the material world had/has it's origin from the spiritual world.

I understand literal...as taking words in their primary sense without metaphor or allegory...I like your description of spiritual reality and the material world and how they run...

55 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

No, I'm not kidding you, but you seem to think that God is. Everything in your argument is based upon your personal rationalizations. You haven't provided one single scripture that says everything John saw is merely symbolic. Certainly symbolism is involved, but that there throne is as real as anything else in Creation.

Humm...personally I never thought God was kidding...those are your thoughts and words and characterization of me.

Ok, so you missed what I was attempting to show you...what can I say...John was taken to heaven...what was revealed to him was the heavenly reality...symbolically...who talked...I showed you that.

What is revealed in heaven will eventually come into the earth...but it is revealed by the  "Holy Spirit" to the spirit enlightened human spirit...in that which is symbolic...ahead of time...to maintain the level of integrity and continuity that God meant to use for His plan...for the created heavens and earth since the Garden of Eden.

It is "word" from God...it makes one holy...it brings the light...it is only received by revelation directly from the mind of God...there is no other way and there are no literal men labeled as elders in the heaven of John's trip there...they are consistent with wherever you find the number 12 in relationship to rule. If you don't see the symbolic picture...don't like my post...I get it.

The throne effects creation, greatly...it frames it...it's existence however has its basis outside of creation in eternity. That is where all power in the heavens and the earth come from.

As for your "haven't provided one single scripture" comment...WilliamL...can you discern exactly who those four living creatures are for me?

I gave you plenty of bible to look at...Daniel, Ezekiel, Revelation perhaps you chose to apply whatever meaning you already assigned to those things...it today, or you just did not go and look at the comparison I was drawing from. You left a number of things out as well...thats what is called "cherry picking"...you only seem to be interested yourself here WilliamL...verses any revealing discussion.

Thats what these forums are...people trying to overstep each other...put and push each other down...create division...make unjust judgements of other people...I see it, just like the Lord Yahshua said...love each other as I have loved you.