Skeleton Rapture Crew

[Diaste]

2 hours ago, Psalms37:4 said:

Just out of curiosity Diaste what exactly is your view on the rapture? Feel free to post scriptures too if you think they support your view.

 

 

I have posted scripture concerning this many times. I hold to the clear teaching of Jesus, not my view, his truth, in Matt 24; the only outline and chronology of the major end of the age events.  

The reality is the only gathering extant follows great tribulation, immediately preceding the wrath of the Lamb, and occurring in conjunction with the sign of His coming and His appearing in the clouds of heaven. 

[Last Daze]

6 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

And I know people who didn't used to hold to a pre-trib view who now do.  So that isn't really an cogent response.  It cuts both ways.

I was addressing the notion put forth that those who don't hold to pretrib don't understand it.

[Diaste]

36 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

How is it fear-driven?   That is you simply assigning values to people you don't know, assuming you know their motives.  The same could easily be done to you.

I don't have to know anyone when I can listen to their words. Out of the abundance of the heart man speaks.

It's only in your imagination that you have refuted anything.  I am not calling out your motives.   I am calling out your attempt to assign motives to others.
didn't say I refuted anything. The scriptures did refute everything.

First of all there is no "doctrine" of the rapture.   So this cannot be called "false doctrine."   None of the competing views can be called that.

this is just a straw man. Surely you can do better.

Secondly,  I am interested how believing a pre-trib view leads people astray.  Specifically, what does it lead them into that qualifies as being led "astray."  In normal parlance, being led astray means being led away from the Lord and from Christian doctrine.   So, I am interested as to what specific established doctrines of the Christian faith a pre-trib view contradicts.   Please enlighten us about that, if you can.

oh dear. If you do not understand concepts so simple then I cannot help you either.
 

Cast doubt on what?   How is believing in the pre-trib view disobedient?  What command does it disobey?   How does the pre-trib view cast doubt on the nature, character and purpose of the Father?

look at you, slinging doubt in every word not even attempting to understand the concepts. I suspect you know full well the answer to every question you pose. I have no interest in fruitless endeavors.

Sounds like a lot of blustering rhetoric with no substance or basis in any kind of sound exegesis of Scripture.

And here it is again. Casting more doubt. I have posted scores of verses and passages of scripture which refute the false doctrine of pretrib. More substance than I see from any advocate of pretrib.

 

[Justin Adams]

31 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

I'm sorry, "lesser beings?"   Who called anyone who opposes the pre-trib views as "lesser beings?"

You Sir. Just go over all your postings again. You are often harsh and demeaning to others. You are overly critical I believe and use 'force of character' to overcome those that would not hold to your views.

You do delete Matt 24 as well. So that your pre-trib view can hold a little water.

Exegesis is not a blunt instrument, neither is hermeneutics which you often use to accuse others who you deem less knowledgeable than you OR who disagree with you.
You attitude gives one the impression they are seen as 'lesser beings'.
You have called me a whiner, saying I am trying to use emotional approaches to issues.

A little kindness would soften some of your points; then people might listen more readily.

[Diaste]

20 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

It might come as a shock to you but most pre-tribbers are prepared if they are wrong. 

prepared? I doubt you know that. How can you possibly know the mind and heart of most pretribbers? You complained in other posts about people assigning motives. Now you are assigning a state of being to a vast number of people, which you do not know. Oh the irony!

It is not a doctrine.  There is no doctrine concerning the rapture in Christianity.  The 2nd coming is a doctrine, but not the rapture.  That is why Christians can debate the issue without being led into sin.

 

No, it is just opposed to YOUR interpretation of Scripture relative to the rapture.   The wiser approach is to treat all views as carrying equal weight as everyone can offer a scriptural rationale for their view, even those who don't believe in any rapture scenario.

Wiser? If you find it wiser to sit on the fence rather than stand for a position I truly worry about your destiny.

That is nonsense.  No one does that.   The issue about the Church and Israel has nothing to do directly with any rapture scenario.

yet it happens in this forum all the time.

 

No one is deleting any Scriptures.  We simply interpret them differently.   I realize it might come as a shock to you, but opposing your view is not equivalent to opposing or "deleting" Scripture.

clearly not true. Two people in this thread ignore relevant scripture. When confronted with this behavior they further ignore the request to answer why they would ignore scriptural truth. In effect deleting relevant scripture from their minds.

I'm sorry, "lesser beings?"   Who called anyone who opposes the pre-trib views as "lesser beings?"

One does not have to call a group anything when behavior towards that group proves bias. In fact, pretrib assigns all those who are not them to the time of tribulation. And it's far worse than that. Pretrib goes so far as to say anyone not taken in the rapture was not a believer in the first place. Clear prejudice. And i have heard it on this forum. One step further...pretrib also assigns believers to the wrath of God, as long as it's not them. Pretrib believes the last week is the wrath of God and this is why a pretrib rapture. But a vast number of believers come out of this time period. According to the pretrib doctrine this should not be true. Yet it is. This contradiction alone is enough to destroy forever the silly notion of a pretrib rapture.

 

[Justin Adams]

3 hours ago, Davida said:

How disrespectful to the Lord. This is the type of comment a non-believer would make.

Sorry! Not meant to be disrespectful to anyone. If you saw the question that was asked, you might understand the tongue-in-cheek answer. It was a disingenuous question really, so I will ask one of you since you commented.

What will you do when the pre-trib turns out to be in reality the falsehood it is? I just hope that the people that preach pre-trib are going to be prepared to not only handle the difficult times themselves, but also to minister to those that they led astray. Those that do not know which end is up. Those who see their loved ones killed before their eyes (like in Indonesia today).

Check out the news about the eye doctor recently killed in Nigeria. This was tribulation for that family. Look at all the babies dying of malnutrition in Syria - the survivors of the bombs. Tribulation is just getting closer to home, and there will be no magical moment. Why should we think that we are any better than those that have already been killed for their faith in the middle east?

Edited December 7, 2017 by Justin Adams

[inchrist]

6 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

What curse?   And how is placing someone under a curse the same as leading them astray.   Those who reject the view that Jesus was/is God are the ones under curse, and sliding down a greased pole into hell.

The answer lies with balaam.

At that time the Israelites were supernaturally protected by God (blessing), no military force at that time could take on the israelites. None.

Because at that time Israel listened to God and were blessed.

Deuteronomy 28:1-2

And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth: 2 And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God. 

Now the king of Moab, Balak being fearful, asked Balaam to remove Israels blessing and put a curse on them

Numbers 22:6

Now come and put a curse on these people, because they are too powerful for me

The only way Balaam could do that, was to get the Israelites to stop listening to the commandments of God in order to be cursed:

Deuteronomy 28:15

But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:

Well as you know, Balaam eventually caved in:

Numbers 31:16

They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident,so that a plague struck the Lord’s people.

They sent whores to seduce the israelites into fornication and idolatry, disobeying Gods commandments and now being placed under a curse.

Israelites led astray by seduction then placed under a curse.

The same God then, is the same God now.

..............

Now with that background we can examine the curse placed on Pretrib.

Pretrib is spawned out of the doctrine of Dispensationalism.

Watch this now:- dispensationalism teaches not to obey the commandments of God because it claims the law is nullified, the false deception.

Out of that deception it builds its Pretrib rapture based on seduction.

Theres no law, no Gods appointed times (feasts), seduction of not facing the tribulation.

Same pattern, leds people astray by seduction, then placed under the curse.

Revelation 2:14

Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: There are some among you who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin so that they ate food sacrificed to idols and committed sexual immorality.

The teaching of Balaam is to disobey Deuteronomy 28:1-2 which is all of Gods commandments.

This is why you see the constant repetition of Keeping Gods commandments

Rev 14:12

This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus

Those who dont subscribe to dispensationalism/pretrib  are typically those who obey all the laws of God and will be blessed with patients and endurance. Pretribs wont, and Im afraid thats been prophesied:

Revelation 13:7

And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

The question you need to ask, who gave power to the dragon to overcome the you Saints and why?

The majority of the church (saints) is  dispensationalism/pretrib (saints), however by forsaking the law and seduction of pretrib you have given satan a foothold to overcome you believing saints, and we end up with mass slaughter.

Daniel 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white

Those who never succumbed to pretrib/ dispensationalism:

 shall be strong, and do exploits. Daniel 11:32

Because they are given the blessings of patients amd endurance.

 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus

[Justin Adams]

5 minutes ago, Davida said:

I don't know, perhaps they are following their own thoughts instead.  

I think I understand you here.
And Lord, I completely repent of any flippancy regarding the reaping and taking away of the saints.

You see, the last 'church' I was at was continually preaching the 'immanency' idea that I just cannot hold to.

It seems to me that a bunch of things have to happen first. So I started looking because I was uncomfortable with the imminent ideas; that seemed to lead to apathy and non-involvement with what was going on around us.

I found the completest form of the end for a Christian was contained in Matt 24. Then I was told quite unceremoniously that that was for Israel and not the church. So Matt 24 is disavowed. But I can find NO scriptural support for this but I do see a 'remnant doctrine' that precludes this conveniently for the pre-trib position.

You just cannot remove Matt 24 from the end times scriptures. None of the Olivet Discourse should be ignored.

So then I looked (on my own) at all the other scriptures. I saw that the crucifixion was slightly different in all four gospels, yet referred to one event. Harmonizing scripture it is called. Thus I decided to try harmonizing all the end times scriptures.

From different perspectives and at different times they all say the same thing. So I joined them all up into a cohesive whole and realized that there are quite a few simultaneous events all happening in the same or similar time frame. And Matt 24 does a great job from the lips of Yeshua, of sequencing them into a believable process. And He would know.

Then somebody said the Revelations does not mention the church after certain chapters. So I looked and found that is does mention 'saints'. So that does not act as a disqualifies. The other thing about The Revelations is that it is often 'repetitive' and says the same thing from another perspective more than once. Someone once told me that Revelations was like something written on the skin of an orange. Once peeled and laid flat, it is hard to follow. It has to be understood from perspective rather than as a purely linear pattern. Some other parts of scripture are similar in this regard.

[Guest shiloh357]

2 hours ago, inchrist said:

The answer lies with balaam.

At that time the Israelites were supernaturally protected by God (blessing), no military force at that time could take on the israelites. None.

Because at that time Israel listened to God and were blessed.

Deuteronomy 28:1-2

And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth: 2 And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God. 

Now the king of Moab, Balak being fearful, asked Balaam to remove Israels blessing and put a curse on them

Numbers 22:6

Now come and put a curse on these people, because they are too powerful for me

The only way Balaam could do that, was to get the Israelites to stop listening to the commandments of God in order to be cursed:

Deuteronomy 28:15

But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:

Well as you know, Balaam eventually caved in:

Numbers 31:16

They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident,so that a plague struck the Lord’s people.

They sent whores to seduce the israelites into fornication and idolatry, disobeying Gods commandments and now being placed under a curse.

Israelites led astray by seduction then placed under a curse.

The same God then, is the same God now.

..............

Now with that background we can examine the curse placed on Pretrib.

Pretrib is spawned out of the doctrine of Dispensationalism.

Watch this now:- dispensationalism teaches not to obey the commandments of God because it claims the law is nullified, the false deception.

Out of that deception it builds its Pretrib rapture based on seduction.

Theres no law, no Gods appointed times (feasts), seduction of not facing the tribulation.

Same pattern, leds people astray by seduction, then placed under the curse.

Revelation 2:14

Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: There are some among you who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin so that they ate food sacrificed to idols and committed sexual immorality.

The teaching of Balaam is to disobey Deuteronomy 28:1-2 which is all of Gods commandments.

This is why you see the constant repetition of Keeping Gods commandments

Rev 14:12

This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus

Those who dont subscribe to dispensationalism/pretrib  are typically those who obey all the laws of God and will be blessed with patients and endurance. Pretribs wont, and Im afraid thats been prophesied:

Revelation 13:7

And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

The question you need to ask, who gave power to the dragon to overcome the you Saints and why?

The majority of the church (saints) is  dispensationalism/pretrib (saints), however by forsaking the law and seduction of pretrib you have given satan a foothold to overcome you believing saints, and we end up with mass slaughter.

Daniel 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white

Those who never succumbed to pretrib/ dispensationalism:

 shall be strong, and do exploits. Daniel 11:32

Because they are given the blessings of patients amd endurance.

 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus

Actually the curse is on people like you who believe the law is required for salvation.  The fact that you attack a curse upon those who don't observe things like the Sabbath confirms that even though you deny it,  ultimately, you teach that observance of the law is necessary for salvation.   You teach a false gospel and as such you are under God's curse, per Galatians chapter 1.

[Guest shiloh357]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

prepared? I doubt you know that. How can you possibly know the mind and heart of most pretribbers? You complained in other posts about people assigning motives. Now you are assigning a state of being to a vast number of people, which you do not know. Oh the irony!

I am a pre-tribber and I read pre-trib books and fellowship with pre-tribbers on a regular basis.  And none of us are 100% sure that the pre-trib view is 100%.   We are prepared to be wrong and have to go through part or all of Tribulation.  I am not reading anyone's minds.  I am not like you, as you assign motives and assume things about people you don't know.   It's what you have to do when you don't really have an argument that is worth anything.

Quote

Wiser? If you find it wiser to sit on the fence rather than stand for a position I truly worry about your destiny.

It is not a matter of sitting on the fence.  It is a matter of having the humility to acknowledge that there strengths and weaknesses to each of the rapture theories and that is not a "doctrine" of the Church that is at stake.   
 

Quote

clearly not true. Two people in this thread ignore relevant scripture. When confronted with this behavior they further ignore the request to answer why they would ignore scriptural truth. In effect deleting relevant scripture from their minds.

More than likely, it is two people who don't see those Scriptures the way you do, but you interpret anyone who disagrees with your interpretation as rejecting Scripture.  That happens when people put their interpretation on par with Scripture, itself.

Quote

One does not have to call a group anything when behavior towards that group proves bias. In fact, pretrib assigns all those who are not them to the time of tribulation.

No we don't

Quote

Pretrib goes so far as to say anyone not taken in the rapture was not a believer in the first place. Clear prejudice.

More nonsense.   The pre-trib rapture view simply states that the followers of Jesus will be taken in the rapture; all of them.  Those that are left behind, are those who were not born again.   That is not prejudice.   Prejudice would argue that some Christians are fit to be taken and other Christians are not, and that is not what we teach.

Quote

And i have heard it on this forum.

Nah, I doubt you have.
 

Quote

One step further...pretrib also assigns believers to the wrath of God, as long as it's not them.

 

No, it doesn't.  The whole Church is taken out of earth and escape God's wrath.  You clearly don't have a very good grasp on the pre-trib rapture view.

 

Quote

Pretrib believes the last week is the wrath of God and this is why a pretrib rapture. But a vast number of believers come out of this time period. According to the pretrib doctrine this should not be true. Yet it is. This contradiction alone is enough to destroy forever the silly notion of a pretrib rapture.

No, contradiction.   You are simply not competent to accurately frame the pre-trib view.   You are trying refute arguments that we don't make and are not making.  The believers during the Tribulation become believers during that time.  We don't assigning anything to anyone.  The truth is that the Holy Spirit will still be at work and people will still get born again during the tribulation.  They were not believers before, but their eyes are opened, as Bible and Christian literature will still be on the earth during that time.   The Gospel is still being preached during the Tribulation and in Rev. 7 there will be an innumerable number of believers that come out of the Tribulation.