Skeleton Rapture Crew

[inchrist]

44 minutes ago, Quasar93 said:

Thanks for your input expressing your views.  Jesus used the apostle John, in Rev.4:1-2, to symbolically represent the Church, prior to the start of the tribulation, confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.  Near the wend of the tribulation, the marriage of the Bride/Church will take place in Rev.19-7-8, in heaven, while the tribulation is taking place on earth.  Jesus will then return in His second coming, WITH his Church, in verse 14, in His armies from heaven

 

Quasar93.. 

This is what I dont get with the pre tribs ( Im not trying to single you out)

First pretribs claim the olivet discourse is for the jews because Christ was talking to the Jews (disciples) and not the gentiles.

Then do a complete U-Turn using a jew to be symbolic of the church to support the pre trib rapture

 

 

[Quasar93]

21 minutes ago, inchrist said:

This is what I dont get with the pre tribs ( Im not trying to single you out)

First pretribs claim the olivet discourse is for the jews because Christ was talking to the Jews (disciples) and not the gentiles.

Then do a complete U-Turn using a jew to be symbolic of the church to support the pre trib rapture

 

 

The Church consists of both Jews and Gentiles as recorded in 1 Cor.12:12-13.  A person can be a Jew, and also a member of the Body of Christ, His Church.  All of the apostles are an example of that fact.  Jesus mission in His first advent was exlusively to Israel.  The Cjurch did not exist then, because the Holy Spirit had not yet arrived, according to Jn.7;39, until at Pentecost, ten days after Jesus ascended into heaven, according to Acts 1:9 and 2:1-3. 

 

Quasar93

Edited December 9, 2017 by Quasar93

[Diaste]

9 hours ago, Davida said:

gee real nice- thanks.  Glad it's not too much trouble for you to tell me and give details with scripture.

Details are as follows....

 

¹⁵ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

²¹ For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

²² And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

²⁹ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The above, from Matt 24, is the only gathering of the elect described in detail and it occurs after GT, after the Sign, and in in conjunction with the Son of man coming in the clouds. 

 

¹⁶ For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

¹⁷ Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

From 1 Thess 4 Paul confirms exactly the same order. The Lord descends with a mighty command and a trumpet and we are caught up together with the resurrected dead to meet the Lord in the CLOUDS.

2 Thess 2.

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

² That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

³ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

⁴ Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Again Paul says the same as Jesus; The Lords return and the gathering of us to Him cannot occur before the A of D, same as Matt 24.

Rev 1:7

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, 

Again the scripture says Jesus comes with the clouds, AND EVERY EYE WILL SEE HIM. Since it's clear that when Jesus returns all the tribes of earth mourn, and every eye will see Him, there is no secret coming in the air preceding by 7 years the visible coming. When Christ comes in the clouds with the mighty command, the trump of God and the wailing of the earth is when the gathering of the elect occurs, and that only after the A of D.

So you can put any label on that you choose; Post trib (not strictly correct) or Prewrath (closer) makes no difference to me.

 

 

 

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, Quasar93 said:

You have bee misled by false teaching the Scriptures refute:

Well then lets examine why and how I have been misled.

 

Scriptural proof for the pre-trib rapture of the Church 

The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." This is exactly the same description of Jesus' coming in Matt 24. Jesus comes in the clouds, in the air, and gathers the elect in the only return of Jesus.

In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28!

There is nothing in either of these two verse showing a pre-coming of Jesus antecedent to the 'real' coming. Both verses state there will be a receiving of us to Him. No timing. No preceding event is mentioned, nor an ensuing event. One cannot conclude a pre-coming or timing of a precoming from such scant evidence.

From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church.

Where is any confirming evidence as proof John represents the church in Rev 4? Just saying something is true DOES NOT make it so.

Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8!

I understand mistakes are going to be made. I make 'em meself. But to exclude the context of the passage, any passage, in the hundreds of defenses for Pretrib I have read over the decades, always seems like an agenda and not a search for truth. Why would you exclude verses 1-2 and 4-6 from 2 Thess from your argument? 2 Thess 2:1-7 tells us the Coming of Jesus is linked with the gathering of the elect after the revealing of the man of sin who proclaims himself to be god. Again why are these truths excluded?

Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8.

I agree the bride of Jesus is seen in Rev 19 but Rev 19:7-8 do not describe 'tribulation on earth'. 

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. 

This is not describing 'tribulation'. Did you read the passage before you posted this as evidence?

From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!

A few problems here. So you are trying to tell us all that the wife of Jesus in Rev 19 is the same as the armies that return to earth in the same chapter. Fine. But where is the proof? What evidence leads us to conclude a wife has suddenly changed to an army? Just saying so does not hold water. 

Zech 14:4-5 is confirmed in what way? That Jesus returns to the mount of Olives and protects Israel and fights the rebels? How does this prove a 3rd coming and the timing of that coming? 

Again, how does Acts 1:11 prove timing of the Coming of Jesus? Acts 1:11 proves that Jesus will return as He left, not when His return occurs. This is another example of forcing facts to fit a desired conclusion; like this doctrine has done for many decades. Your contention, "...Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming.... Acts.....2:29-30" and the confirmation you defend seems to make no sense. How is the lineage of David raised up and sitting on the throne confirmed by, "...Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven,". I don't see the connection.

The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts:

1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11.

And? No timing can be proven here. The timing of Jesus second coming is proven in Matt 24 and 2 Thess 2 and occurs in conjunction with the gathering of the elect.
2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!.
I see this same theme all the time when debating the untenable position of Pretrib; proving a negative. Where are the facts proving a thing did not happen? An impossibility. We cannot KNOW "No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming" because there is no explicit testimony to this non-occurrence in Rev 19. And again 1 Thess 4:16 does not prove timing either. But Matt 24 does. As does 2 Thess 2.
3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, with His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

Obviously not.  John 14 and 1 Thess 4:16-17 prove only a gathering, not the timing of the gathering nor with whom Jesus returns. 2 Thess 2 does indeed prove timing if you quoted the entire passage. 2 Thess 2:1-7 along with Matt 24 prove there is only one coming of Jesus, and one gathering of the elect occurring after the A of D.

4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1.

I'm not convinced you have read all the relevant passages concerning the gathering of the elect. Rev 6:9-11 shows martyred believers under the throne, in heaven. Rev 7:9-14 shows a great number of believers standing around the throne. These believers come out of great tribulation. Believers. The elect. Around the Throne. In heaven. Someone from off the earth is in heaven before the wrath of God falls.

The Biblical teachings of the pre-trib rapture of the Church, by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul, in the four post link below:

 

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/deeperwalk/the-biblical-teaching-of-the-pre-trib-rapture-of-t-t19401898.html

 

Instead of just believing what mankind has to say about this time, why not check all the references in scripture and prove what is being preached is either true or false? Pretrib defense excludes Matt 24, Mark 16 and Luke 21 from the doctrine. This is because the words of Jesus refutes this teaching. 

Quasar93

 

 

[Diaste]

10 hours ago, Unfailing Presence said:

My point is different .

My point is that in all the thousands of years of God's interaction with groups of faithful & obedient children , not once has He ever caused such a group to suffer group destruction .

And no one can name even one instance of such .

In all the scripture . 

Yet in spite of God's teaching for thousands of years that it is his His character to do so , the heart of man  declares that this one time  God will Change in a negative way 

and fall asleep at the switch as those faithful and obedient to Him are slaughtered .

What drives them to declare that God , " the same yesterday , today , and forever  "   will change in the future , in a decidedly negative way ,  towards a large group of faithful & obedient followers and allow most of them to be destroyed  is beyond me . 

                                               " My help cometh from the Lord , which made heaven and earth ...He that keepeth thee will not slumber ."   ( Psalm 121 : 2-3 )

 

So what are you saying? You seem to be dancing around your point. If you are trying to prove a pretrib position because our Father will not allow 'group destruction' I think you are missing the true nature of the Lord.

In every population of God's people throughout the ages there have existed the sincere and the insincere toward the Lord and His ways. The Father will weed out the pretenders from among the pure of heart, in a swift and complete manner, while never uprooting the tender growth that are the favorites of the Lord. The Lord preserves the righteous even among plagues visited upon the entire population to purify the heart.

[inchrist]

8 hours ago, Quasar93 said:

The Cjurch did not exist then, because the Holy Spirit had not yet arrived, according to Jn.7;39, until at Pentecost, ten days after Jesus ascended into heaven, according to Acts 1:9 and 2:1-3. 

 

Quasar93

I have to respectfully disagree, the church certainly did exist prior to Pentecost.

Heb 2:12

Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

Matthew 26:30King James Version (KJV)

³⁰ And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives

 

 

[ENOCH2010]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

Great work Diaste, I agree with everything you say

[Unfailing Presence]

13 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Everyone dies.  "Groups" have nothing to do with anything.  God never abandons His people.  Never has.  Never will.  Have a great life.

God's  treatment & posture towards  groups of both faithful & obedient people ,  and unfaithful & disobedient is quite consistent in scripture. It is there for God's  instruction to us , and God does not change yesterday , today , or tomorrow , to satisfy the desires of man .

  If what you say is indeed part of the prophesized never before mentioned, single instance ,  changed posture  of God towards hundreds of millions of faithful & obedient , where are the prophesies that  speak to this massive , one time change of God's posture towards an entire generation of the faithful ?

Prophesies that speak  to this massive one time in history abandonment by God of a massive group of the faithful ? 

I can name dozens of prophesies from God Himself speaking to His eternal faithfulness and power mighty to save those faithful & obedient to Him .

In all of scripture you cannot name one passage speaking to God's past , present , or future willingness to abandon an entire generation of faithful . 

Show me ?

                                                               " I will both lay me down in peace , and sleep , for Thou Lord , only makest me dwell in safety . "  ( Psalm 4 : 8 )

Edited December 9, 2017 by Unfailing Presence

[Unfailing Presence]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

So what are you saying? You seem to be dancing around your point. If you are trying to prove a pretrib position because our Father will not allow 'group destruction' I think you are missing the true nature of the Lord.

In every population of God's people throughout the ages there have existed the sincere and the insincere toward the Lord and His ways. The Father will weed out the pretenders from among the pure of heart, in a swift and complete manner, while never uprooting the tender growth that are the favorites of the Lord. The Lord preserves the righteous even among plagues visited upon the entire population to purify the heart.

The word of God shows His point of never abandoning an entire group / generation of those faithful & obedient to Him . 

Quite the opposite in fact . 

Why don't you back up your position of this human concocted  one time willingness of God to abandon an entire generation of His faithful in this historic future  judgement  event with so much as a syllable of  God's word ?

I can give you dozens of God's prophecies where God swears the opposite .   To never abandon or forsake His faithful to the  judgement of those who reject Him .

God does not change yesterday , today , or tomorrow for the desired whims of man . 

Change Him if you can ?

Give us just one word Of God's pledging to do  the opposite if you can ?

 

                                                              " I will both lay me down in peace , and sleep , for thou Lord only makest me dwell in safety ."   ( Psalm 4 : 8 )

 

 

Edited December 9, 2017 by Unfailing Presence

[Unfailing Presence]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

 The Father will weed out the pretenders from among the pure of heart, in a swift and complete manner,

 

That fact that you believe the judgement to the tribulation is all about weeding out  " pretenders" shows an woeful understanding of the tribulation judgement's purpose .

I'm beginning to see what  your confusion is rooted in .

News flash , God is  " weeding out pretenders "  on   December 9 , 2017  as well as every day that has ever existed prior to December 9 , 2017 .