Justin Adams Posted December 7, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 25 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 9,606 Content Per Day: 3.97 Reputation: 7,795 Days Won: 21 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted December 7, 2017 11 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said: What will you do when there is? My risk is far less than yours... I will be happy to take the great sky-elevator to the top floor. IF IT COMES... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Adams Posted December 7, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 25 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 9,606 Content Per Day: 3.97 Reputation: 7,795 Days Won: 21 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted December 7, 2017 About the second coming, the wrath, the end of all we know - and the changing and catching up of the saints. I will ask one question: the four gospels have differing accounts of the crucifixion. So by the logic of pre-tribbers that must SPLIT scripture to their faulty views, there must have been FOUR crucifixions. However, using the LOGIC of harmonizing, if we look at the end times and JOIN them into a single occurrence with multiple aspects, then even a first grader can see that IT IS ONE COMBINED EVENT. Harmonizing, as we do with other scriptures, means we do NOT have to invent positions and strip away certain verses to suit our multiplication of doctrinal 'events'. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inchrist Posted December 7, 2017 Group: Non-Trinitarian Followers: 3 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 3,490 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 88 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted December 7, 2017 9 minutes ago, Sojourner414 said: Very true, Davida. In attacking Pre-Trib believers for what they believe, one has to make a lot of assumptions about what we believe, the Scriptural evidence we quote, and our attitude concerning death and suffering. I no longer attempt to debate or refute counter-claims to it(or anything else on Worthy anymore) because of the refusal to listen to reason and Scriptural basis for our beliefs. The accusations and personal attacks made by those who hold a different view only serve to give the enemies of Christ the means to slander the Lord, and harm those that are supposed to be their bothers and sisters in the Lord. Exactly my point, Shiloh. They assign values where they do not know them for certain, and make assumptions about people they do not know in real life. 53 minutes ago, shiloh357 said: How exactly does pre trib views "lead people astray?" It places them under a curse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 4 minutes ago, inchrist said: It places them under a curse What curse? And how is placing someone under a curse the same as leading them astray. Those who reject the view that Jesus was/is God are the ones under curse, and sliding down a greased pole into hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted December 7, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,629 Content Per Day: 1.99 Reputation: 2,368 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted December 7, 2017 1 hour ago, shiloh357 said: I guess it is easier to assign values to people and assume their motives than it is to provide substantive responses How exactly does pre trib views "lead people astray?" Does lead them to satanism or atheism? Do they convert to Buddhism because they are pre-trib? I mean, it is easy rhetoric to say that someone is led astray by pre-trib views, but what does that mean? Do they forsake the Lord? How is it doctrine of devils? That was a very substantive response. It's a fear driven doctrine now, but I suspect it began by casting doubt on the scriptures and God's truth. I have posted scores of fully fleshed out posts replete with scripture both refuting pretrib and proving the true order and timing of the gathering, among other events. Please don't distract by calling my motives into question when you just insulted at least two people in this thread. And you know exactly how false doctrines lead people astray. The hows and whys have been posted many times in all discussions related to this topic and others. To pretend otherwise is avoidance of the real issue; a major false doctrine. It's a matter of obedience. Think Eve and the serpent. The serpent cast doubt. And doctrine casting doubt on the nature, character and purpose of the Father is a doctrine of devil's. This is what Darby did in the 1800's, cast doubt on the truth. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 Just now, Diaste said: That was a very substantive response. It's a fear driven doctrine now, but I suspect it began by casting doubt on the scriptures and God's truth. How is it fear-driven? That is you simply assigning values to people you don't know, assuming you know their motives. The same could easily be done to you. Quote I have posted scores of fully fleshed out posts replete with scripture both refuting pretrib and proving the true order and timing of the gathering, among other events. Please don't distract by calling my motives into question when you just insulted at least two people in this thread. It's only in your imagination that you have refuted anything. I am not calling out your motives. I am calling out your attempt to assign motives to others. Quote And you know exactly how false doctrines lead people astray. The hows and whys have been posted many times in all discussions related to this topic and others. To pretend otherwise is avoidance of the real issue; a major false doctrine. First of all there is no "doctrine" of the rapture. So this cannot be called "false doctrine." None of the competing views can be called that. Secondly, I am interested how believing a pre-trib view leads people astray. Specifically, what does it lead them into that qualifies as being led "astray." In normal parlance, being led astray means being led away from the Lord and from Christian doctrine. So, I am interested as to what specific established doctrines of the Christian faith a pre-trib view contradicts. Please enlighten us about that, if you can. Quote It's a matter of obedience. Think Eve and the serpent. The serpent cast doubt. And doctrine casting doubt on the nature, character and purpose of the Father is a doctrine of devil's. This is what Darby did in the 1800's, cast doubt on the truth. Cast doubt on what? How is believing in the pre-trib view disobedient? What command does it disobey? How does the pre-trib view cast doubt on the nature, character and purpose of the Father? Sounds like a lot of blustering rhetoric with no substance or basis in any kind of sound exegesis of Scripture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Daze Posted December 7, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted December 7, 2017 2 hours ago, Sojourner414 said: In attacking Pre-Trib believers for what they believe, one has to make a lot of assumptions about what we believe, the Scriptural evidence we quote, and our attitude concerning death and suffering. I no longer attempt to debate or refute counter-claims to it(or anything else on Worthy anymore) because of the refusal to listen to reason and Scriptural basis for our beliefs. They assign values where they do not know them for certain, and make assumptions about people they do not know in real life. The vast majority of people that I've talked to that no longer hold to the pretrib view at one point did, and know it fairly well. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Adams Posted December 7, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 25 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 9,606 Content Per Day: 3.97 Reputation: 7,795 Days Won: 21 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted December 7, 2017 It is really telling this. I am concerned for those led astray over the pre-trib (Darby) doctrine. I think they will be so surprised when it just does not happen as expected. I am certainly NOT into undermining anyone's faith. However, a spade is a spade and I just want people to see that it IS A DOCTRINE. By whatever name you want to call it it is opposed to the plain harmonizing of the scriptures that we normally use to arrive at a truth. You have to split, and separate verses and biblical accounts and call them 'Jewish', or 'Church' etc to try to impose a view that has never been fully embraced until the last few hundred years. Just think of all the gymnastics you have to jump to in order to 'delete' certain obviously relevant scriptures in order to arrive at the 'church only' rapture views. They are disingenuous. They are not correct. It will not happen this way. I do not want new and wavering Christians to be led by bullying BLUSTER and the demeaning way that others are referred to as being 'lesser beings' than those who hold to the pre-trib views. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 6 minutes ago, Justin Adams said: It is really telling this. I am concerned for those led astray over the pre-trib (Darby) doctrine. I think they will be so surprised when it just does not happen as expected. It might come as a shock to you but most pre-tribbers are prepared if they are wrong. Quote I am certainly NOT into undermining anyone's faith. However, a spade is a spade and I just want people to see that it IS A DOCTRINE. It is not a doctrine. There is no doctrine concerning the rapture in Christianity. The 2nd coming is a doctrine, but not the rapture. That is why Christians can debate the issue without being led into sin. Quote By whatever name you want to call it it is opposed to the plain harmonizing of the scriptures that we normally use to arrive at a truth. No, it is just opposed to YOUR interpretation of Scripture relative to the rapture. The wiser approach is to treat all views as carrying equal weight as everyone can offer a scriptural rationale for their view, even those who don't believe in any rapture scenario. Quote You have to split, and separate verses and biblical accounts and call them 'Jewish', or 'Church' etc to try to impose a view that has never been fully embraced until the last few hundred years. That is nonsense. No one does that. The issue about the Church and Israel has nothing to do directly with any rapture scenario. Quote Just think of all the gymnastics you have to jump to in order to 'delete' certain obviously relevant scriptures in order to arrive at the 'church only' rapture views. They are disingenuous. They are not correct. It will not happen this way. No one is deleting any Scriptures. We simply interpret them differently. I realize it might come as a shock to you, but opposing your view is not equivalent to opposing or "deleting" Scripture. Quote I do not want new and wavering Christians to be led by bullying BLUSTER and the demeaning way that others are referred to as being 'lesser beings' than those who hold to the pre-trib views. I'm sorry, "lesser beings?" Who called anyone who opposes the pre-trib views as "lesser beings?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 14 minutes ago, Last Daze said: The vast majority of people that I've talked to that no longer hold to the pretrib view at one point did, and know it fairly well. And I know people who didn't used to hold to a pre-trib view who now do. So that isn't really an cogent response. It cuts both ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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