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Quasar93

The Difference Between the Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of Christ

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On 12/7/2017 at 9:47 AM, Quasar93 said:

Have you ever stopped to think what the Scriptures tell us where believers go after the death of our bodies? Where are we going when our body dies?

"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." As recorded in 2 Cor.5:8, confirming Ecc.12:7. Which is, IMO, conclusive to the fact that Jesus is not going to let the rest of His Church remain on earth to go through the tribulation. He will return for all of us who belong to Him, still alive here on earth, at His appearing, according to Jn.14:2-4 and 1 Thes.4:14-18. All those who have died in Him, go to be with Him in heaven, immediately after their physical death, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8.  Beginning with Pentecost, they are seen returning with Him from heaven, in 1 Thes.4:14, when He returns for all of us who belong to Him, left here on earth alive at His appearing in the clouds of the sky.  Beginning with Jn.14:2-4 and 28, He returns to take us with Him, back to our Father in heaven.  As recorded in 1 Thes.4:17, when we will be CAUGHT UP [raptured] together with them [all those who previously died in Him] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

"In my Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me, that you also may be where I am." Vs.3."And you know the way to where I am going."  Jn.14:2-4.

And where did Jesus tell them He was going? "You heards me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you. If you loved me , you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." Vs 28. Confirmed in Jn.16:10, 17 and 28.

The important fact in the above to keep in mind is, that it cannot possibly take place when Jesus returns in His Second Coming to the earth. Because, in the above passage, He returns for all those who belong to Him, bringing with Him all those who had fallen asleep [Died] in Him from heaven, AND RETURNS WITH THEM ALL TO OUR FATHER IN HEAVEN!

The above passage is reinforced by Paul, in 1 Thes.4:14-18, alluding to, "will be CAUGHT UP/RAPTURED together with them [The dead in Christ] to meet the Lord in the clouds of the air, in vs 17." Vs 14 refers to God bringing with Jesus, all those who previously died in Him, and are with Him in the clouds of the air, when all of us who belong to Christ, left here on the earth alive at His appearing, meet Him, together with them, in the clouds of the air. Where in vs 15, Paul reveals the entire event is ACCORDING TO THE LORD'S OWN WORD, which is directly from Jn.14:2-4 and 28. The only place in the Scriptures Jesus taught the believers in Him then, what we refer to today as the rapture of the Church.

How does the above teaching of the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church by Jesus, Paul and John, differ from His Second Coming to the earth? Jesus returns in His second coming to the earth, with His entire Church, [After the marriage to His Bride, the Church, in heaven, in Rev.19:7-9] [as well as in Zech.14:4-5; Jude 14 and Rev.19:14], in His armies from heaven, as well as His angels, recorded in Mt.24:30-31. He will return to fight the battle of Armageddon first, to defeat the antichrist, the false prophet and the ten horns [nations] allied to them, in Rev.19:11-20. He does not gather anyone to Himself in the clouds of the sky in His second coming, as He will in the rapture, nor does He return to heaven with them, as He will at the rapture of the Church! But rather, to save the remnant of Israel, in Zech.12:10 and  Zech.14. Then Satan will be thrown into the Abyss for 1,000 years, in Rev.20:1-3, then to administer the first resurrection, in Rev.20:4 and 6, bringing peace to the entire earth.  He will then establish His 1,000 year reign on the earth.  NOTICE that Jesus DOES NOT return to heaven at any time after He sets foot on the Mount of Olives [Zech.14:5] in His Second Coming, until God has created the new heaven and earth, in Rev.21:1, as seen in verses 22-23.Jesus testimony about His Second Coming to the earth, in Mt.24:30-31:"

At that time, the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. [At the end of the seven years of tribulation]. [Confirming Zech.12:10-13]  Israel in particular, because they will then recognize Jesus as their Messiah FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME.  While the rest of the world will finally realize Jesus is who He said He was, the Son of God. You will not see any mourning when Jesus appears in the clouds of the sky at the rapture of the Church, when He calls up all those who belong to Him, left here on the earth alive, before the seven year tribulation begins. But rather, great rejoicing will take place! They will see the Son of Man coming on the couds of the sky, with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call and they will gather His ELECT [Jesus is addressing Israel, not the Church which did not exist then, because the Holy Spirit had not from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." Vs 30-31. The angels will gather His ELECT, in Mt.24:31, from the four winds [ISRAEL], from one end of the heavens to the other [THE RAPTURED CHURCH], in His second coming,- confirming Ez.34:11-16, meaning, the Jewish people from all over the entire world. Take notice: No one meets the Lord in the clouds of the sky, here. Nor does does He return from the clouds of the sky with us, to our Father in heaven, as the Scriptures reveal He will in Jn.14:2-4 and 28 and 1 Thes.4:16-17, at the pre-trib rapture of the Church. Nor does Jesus remain in the clouds of the sky, but will take us to our Father in heaven.  

Jesus will return in His second coming, to the earth, where He will remain to establish His 1,000 year kingdom here on the earth, according to Rev.20:4 and 6. Jesus Olivet Discourse, recorded in Mt.24; Mk.13 and in Lk.21, pertains to His second coming to the earth and has nothing whatever to do with the Church. Because the ministry during His first advent was exclusively to Israel, as He made abundantly clear in Mt.15:24 as well as in 10:5-6. The Church did not exist until the arrival of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, in Acts 2:1-3, ten days after Jesus ascended into heaven, in Acts 1:9. It was in response to the questions His disciples had asked Him in Mt.24:3, "...when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age." Which He clearly revealed to them, completely through the seven year tribulation to the signs of His coming and of His actual arrival, in Mt.24:30-31 on the Mount of Olives, according to Zech.14:5.

The "second coming" is found in Zech.14:4-5; Jude 14; where you find Jesus returning with all His angels in Mt.24:30-31 and His entire Church following Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in Rev.19:14 [A sign of the righteous acts of the saints, as found in Rev.19:8, NIV], in His armies from heaven. Which makes it quite impossible for any such thing as a post-trib rapture.The entire text by Jesus, from Mt.24:4-31 is an amplification of Dan.9:27, where God has decreed Israel to go through the 70th and final week/the seven year tribulation. Which the Church will not go through, according to 2 Thes.2:3 and 7. The antichrist is all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27, the very same person found in Dan.7:23-27; 8:9-12 and in 9:27, confirmed by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3-4 and 8, that immediately follow the pre-trib rapture of the Church, recorded in 2 Thes.2:3. There is no resemblance of Mt.24:30-31, or in any of the counterparts in Mk.13 and Lk.21 of the second coming of Christ, to the earth, to that of the pre-trib rapture of the Church, when Jesus gathers us all into the clouds of the sky and takes us from there to our Father in heaven, as He promised us, in Jn.14:2-4 and 28. And Paul in 1 Thes.4:14-18; 2 Thes.2:1-8. Confirming Dan.9:27. [The latter confirms who the antichrist is, his triggering the 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation and the timing of the pre-trib rapture of the Church as confirmed by Paul in 2 Thes.2:3-4].

From another source:  http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice-Di ... heRapt.pdf


Quasar93

At the Rapture of the Church, Jesus comes for His Saints. At the second coming to set foot on earth, Jesus comes with His Saints.

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2 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

At the Rapture of the Church, Jesus comes for His Saints. At the second coming to set foot on earth, Jesus comes with His Saints.

Negative.  The Scriptures clearly define the end times sequence of events as documented in the following:

Scriptural proof for the pre-trib rapture of the Church 

The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!

The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts:

1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11.

2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!.

3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, with His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1.


Quasar93

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Cat among the pigeons. I trust the guy I quoted this from (2005) is OK with this. But i have some serious questions for EVERYBODY.

The False expectation of a 7 year tribulation comes from the scripture in Daniel 9:27. I wish to prove here, that this entire premise is error and cannot be used to formulate this proposition! Those who preach a 7 year tribulation, have surgically removed a single portion of scripture out of context, and taken an already fulfilled prophecy, (which fortold the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.) and cast it 2,000 years into the future, to promote a false teaching and support their "pre-tribulation" rapture doctrine.

This page is an addition to my main page dealing with the rapture. I believe in a tribulation and the rapture which will follow, that's right, "follow" the tribulation (post-tribulation rapture). This page simply contends with the "7" year tribulation theory built by many modern day preachers.

(Dan 9:24-27)  Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.  (25)  Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. (26)  And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. (27)  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Here is a briefing on the above noted verses in Daniel chapter 9

9:24  Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.  

70 weeks (490 years) were determined for the Jews to cease their sins! Daniel's prophecy was written around 600 B.C. and as his prophecy continues, will prophetically point to the exact date of the coming Messiah!

9:25  Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

In this verse, we have a time frame of events leading to the time when the Messiah, Jesus Christ, shall come!

The “Treasury of Scriptural Knowledge” illustrates the time frame as:

7 weeks       49  years     for the Restoration of Jerusalem

62 weeks   434  years    from that date to the announcement of the Messiah by John the Baptist

1 week            7 years    for the ministry of John and of Christ to the crucifixion

70 weeks    490 years


The commentators seem to agree that the time frame commences with Artaxerxes around 457-445 BC who gave a decree to Nehemiah to rebuild Jerusalem.

9:26  And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

The Messiah is “cut off” and then it talks about a “prince that shall come and destroy the city…”  The scholars all have their formulas for exacting the date of the coming of Jesus Christ through this scripture, but it is certain, that these events were fulfilled with Jesus nearly 2,000 years ago!

This is the verse where the Pre-trib teachers destroy Biblical prophecy and force it into a current day event! They make this “prince” to be the antichrist of a future time which is yet to come! From the first half of the verse, which speaks of the death of the Messiah, to the “prince”, they have added (as of today) nearly 2,000 years of time!

Adam Clarke's commentary declares:

And the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary - By the “prince” Titus, the son of Vespasian, is plainly intended; and “the people of that prince” are no other than the Romans, who, according to the prophecy, destroyed the sanctuary, hakkodesh, the holy place or temple, and, as a flood, swept away all, till the total destruction of that obstinate people finished the war. (9:26)

These seven years, added to the four hundred and eighty-three, complete the four hundred and ninety years, or seventy prophetic weeks; so that the whole of this prophecy, from the times and corresponding events, has been fulfilled to the very letter.

In my study library, the other Commentators all agree that this Prince is speaking of Vespasian (or his son Titus) and the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans. (ref. John Gill's Commentary, Jamieson, Fausset and Brown Commentary, Treasury of Scriptural Knowledge and John Wesley).

The following verse is where the Pre-Trib teachers have built the 7 year tribulation!

9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

While each of these commentators differ as to which of the two persons this verse is speaking about that makes the covenant for one week, Jesus the Messiah or Titus, it is clear that the “he” of verse 27 can ONLY be one of these two, and NOT a prophecy of the antichrist 2,000 years later!

How any student of Bible prophecy can take this verse which was fulfilled nearly 2,000 years ago, and throw it into the great Tribulation is beyond my comprehension. These teachers are deceitful in their strategy, but effective to sway the unlearned and those who do not know how to rightly divide the word of God! It is interesting how this scripture in Daniel is so very detailed to give the exact timing of the rebuilding of Jerusalem to the coming of our Lord, and then to the destruction of Jerusalem. Then, according to those who teach the 7 year tribulation, the scripture silently projects the final "week" over 2,000 years into the future without any reference to the missing 2,000 + years! Assuming Artaxerxes gave his order in the year 457 B.C., and today's date of 2005 A.D., the 70 weeks (490 years) prophecy has, to date, become a 2,462 year prophecy (or 351 + weeks and still counting)! Doesn't this seem suspicious to you? I contend, in agreement with Adam Clarke, that the 70 weeks are a fulfilled prophecy.

"These seven years, added to the four hundred and eighty-three, complete the four hundred and ninety years, or seventy (70) prophetic weeks; so that the whole of this prophecy, from the times and corresponding events, has been fulfilled to the very letter." Adam Clarke 

The Scholars Commentaries have much detail to write about these verses in Daniel chapter 9. But the clear verdict, is that they all agree that the prophecy is complete! The only varience, is the question as to whether the scripture was speaking of Jesus, or Titus in verse 27. If you wish to dig deeper, you can download the Bible program with these commentators at http://www.e-sword.net

John Gill's Commentary

and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease; the daily sacrifice of the Jews, and all their other offerings; and which was literally fulfilled "in the half part" of this week, as it may be rendered; towards the close of the latter half of it, when the city of Jerusalem, being closely besieged by Titus, what through the closeness of the siege, the divisions of the people, and the want both of time and men, and beasts to offer, the daily sacrifice ceased, as Josephus says, to the great grief of the people; nor have the Jews, ever since the destruction of their city and temple, offered any sacrifice, esteeming it unlawful so to do in a strange land

Albert Barnes Notes on the Bible

He shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease - The word "he," in this place, refers to the Messiah, if the interpretation of the former part of the verse is correct, for there can be no doubt that it is the same person who is mentioned in the phrase "he shall confirm the covenant with many.

Jamieson, Faussett and Brown Commentary

Dan 9:27 - he shall confirm the covenant--Christ. The confirmation of the covenant is assigned to Him also elsewhere. Isa_42:6, "I will give thee for a covenant of the people" (that is, He in whom the covenant between Israel and God is personally expressed); compare Luk_22:20, "The new testament in My blood"; Mal_3:1, "the angel of the covenant"; Jer_31:31-34, describes the Messianic covenant in full.

Matthew Henry's Commentary of the Whole Bible

(note: Matthew Henry's study places the end of the 490 years between the hour that Christ died, which agrees with his opinion, to 37 years after the death of Christ!

(The hour of Christ's death)

The learned Mr. Poole, in his Latin Synopsis, has a vast and most elaborate collection of what has been said, pro and con, concerning the different beginnings of these weeks, with which the learned may entertain themselves. [2.] Concerning the termination of them; and here likewise interpreters are not agreed. Some make them to end at the death of Christ, and think the express words of this famous prophecy will warrant us to conclude that from this very hour when Gabriel spoke to Daniel, at the time of the evening oblation, to the hour when Christ died, which was towards evening too, it was exactly 490 years; and I am willing enough to be of that opinion.

(3 1/2 yrs after the death of Christ)

But others think, because it is said that in the midst of the weeks (that is, the last of the seventy weeks) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, they end three years and a half after the death of Christ, when the Jews having rejected the gospel, the apostles turned to the Gentiles. But those who make them to end precisely at the death of Christ read it thus, “He shall make strong the testament to the many; the last seven, or the last week, yea, half that seven, or half that week (namely, the latter half, the three years and a half which Christ spent in his public ministry), shall bring to an end sacrifice and oblation.”

(37 years after the death of Christ)

Others make these 490 years to end with the destruction of Jerusalem, about thirty-seven years after the death of Christ, because these seventy weeks are said to be determined upon the people of the Jews and the holy city; and much is said here concerning the destruction of the city and the sanctuary. [3.] Concerning the division of them into seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks, and one week; and the reason of this is as hard to account for as any thing else. In the first seven weeks, or forty-nine years, the temple and city were built; and in the last single week Christ preached his gospel, by which the Jewish economy was taken down, and the foundations were laid of the gospel city and temple, which were to be built upon the ruins of the former.

Conclusion

Identifying the 70th week as the Great Tribulation of a future date, was not even an option in Henry's study nor by any other noted scholar in his day! It is a Modern Day teaching!)

I trust that the Tribulation period is not a clear cut 7 Year period. The Great Tribulation does not have an exact, determinable, beginning date, which begins at the rapture of the church with the signing of a peace treaty between Israel and their enemies as pre-tribbers teach!  I do not anticipate a "covenent" being made by the anti-christ that would start a 7 year agreement which would then be broken after 3 1/2 years as many teachers declare. I contend that Daniel chapter 9 is NOT a prophecy for end times events! It is a fulfilled prophecy!

Although I agree that the scriptures do show a 3 1/2 year period in Rev. 11:3, I contend that the 7 year tribulation has no scriptural support to give it credence as being such a major doctrine it has become and believed by many Christians today!

Rev 11:3  And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

http://crossbearer-brian.tripod.com/id234.htm

  • This is Worthy 1

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Justin

When have Daniel's people accepted their Messiah.

For this is the whole point of the Seventy Sevens.

They accept Him at the end of the 70 sevens.

In Christ

Montana Marv

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9 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

Cat among the pigeons. I trust the guy I quoted this from (2005) is OK with this. But i have some serious questions for EVERYBODY.

The False expectation of a 7 year tribulation comes from the scripture in Daniel 9:27. I wish to prove here, that this entire premise is error and cannot be used to formulate this proposition! Those who preach a 7 year tribulation, have surgically removed a single portion of scripture out of context, and taken an already fulfilled prophecy, (which fortold the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.) and cast it 2,000 years into the future, to promote a false teaching and support their "pre-tribulation" rapture doctrine.

This page is an addition to my main page dealing with the rapture. I believe in a tribulation and the rapture which will follow, that's right, "follow" the tribulation (post-tribulation rapture). This page simply contends with the "7" year tribulation theory built by many modern day preachers.

(Dan 9:24-27)  Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.  (25)  Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. (26)  And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. (27)  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Here is a briefing on the above noted verses in Daniel chapter 9

9:24  Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.  

70 weeks (490 years) were determined for the Jews to cease their sins! Daniel's prophecy was written around 600 B.C. and as his prophecy continues, will prophetically point to the exact date of the coming Messiah!

9:25  Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

In this verse, we have a time frame of events leading to the time when the Messiah, Jesus Christ, shall come!

The “Treasury of Scriptural Knowledge” illustrates the time frame as:

7 weeks       49  years     for the Restoration of Jerusalem

62 weeks   434  years    from that date to the announcement of the Messiah by John the Baptist

1 week            7 years    for the ministry of John and of Christ to the crucifixion

70 weeks    490 years


The commentators seem to agree that the time frame commences with Artaxerxes around 457-445 BC who gave a decree to Nehemiah to rebuild Jerusalem.

9:26  And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

The Messiah is “cut off” and then it talks about a “prince that shall come and destroy the city…”  The scholars all have their formulas for exacting the date of the coming of Jesus Christ through this scripture, but it is certain, that these events were fulfilled with Jesus nearly 2,000 years ago!

This is the verse where the Pre-trib teachers destroy Biblical prophecy and force it into a current day event! They make this “prince” to be the antichrist of a future time which is yet to come! From the first half of the verse, which speaks of the death of the Messiah, to the “prince”, they have added (as of today) nearly 2,000 years of time!

Adam Clarke's commentary declares:

And the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary - By the “prince” Titus, the son of Vespasian, is plainly intended; and “the people of that prince” are no other than the Romans, who, according to the prophecy, destroyed the sanctuary, hakkodesh, the holy place or temple, and, as a flood, swept away all, till the total destruction of that obstinate people finished the war. (9:26)

These seven years, added to the four hundred and eighty-three, complete the four hundred and ninety years, or seventy prophetic weeks; so that the whole of this prophecy, from the times and corresponding events, has been fulfilled to the very letter.

In my study library, the other Commentators all agree that this Prince is speaking of Vespasian (or his son Titus) and the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans. (ref. John Gill's Commentary, Jamieson, Fausset and Brown Commentary, Treasury of Scriptural Knowledge and John Wesley).

The following verse is where the Pre-Trib teachers have built the 7 year tribulation!

9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

While each of these commentators differ as to which of the two persons this verse is speaking about that makes the covenant for one week, Jesus the Messiah or Titus, it is clear that the “he” of verse 27 can ONLY be one of these two, and NOT a prophecy of the antichrist 2,000 years later!

How any student of Bible prophecy can take this verse which was fulfilled nearly 2,000 years ago, and throw it into the great Tribulation is beyond my comprehension. These teachers are deceitful in their strategy, but effective to sway the unlearned and those who do not know how to rightly divide the word of God! It is interesting how this scripture in Daniel is so very detailed to give the exact timing of the rebuilding of Jerusalem to the coming of our Lord, and then to the destruction of Jerusalem. Then, according to those who teach the 7 year tribulation, the scripture silently projects the final "week" over 2,000 years into the future without any reference to the missing 2,000 + years! Assuming Artaxerxes gave his order in the year 457 B.C., and today's date of 2005 A.D., the 70 weeks (490 years) prophecy has, to date, become a 2,462 year prophecy (or 351 + weeks and still counting)! Doesn't this seem suspicious to you? I contend, in agreement with Adam Clarke, that the 70 weeks are a fulfilled prophecy.

"These seven years, added to the four hundred and eighty-three, complete the four hundred and ninety years, or seventy (70) prophetic weeks; so that the whole of this prophecy, from the times and corresponding events, has been fulfilled to the very letter." Adam Clarke 

The Scholars Commentaries have much detail to write about these verses in Daniel chapter 9. But the clear verdict, is that they all agree that the prophecy is complete! The only varience, is the question as to whether the scripture was speaking of Jesus, or Titus in verse 27. If you wish to dig deeper, you can download the Bible program with these commentators at http://www.e-sword.net

John Gill's Commentary

and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease; the daily sacrifice of the Jews, and all their other offerings; and which was literally fulfilled "in the half part" of this week, as it may be rendered; towards the close of the latter half of it, when the city of Jerusalem, being closely besieged by Titus, what through the closeness of the siege, the divisions of the people, and the want both of time and men, and beasts to offer, the daily sacrifice ceased, as Josephus says, to the great grief of the people; nor have the Jews, ever since the destruction of their city and temple, offered any sacrifice, esteeming it unlawful so to do in a strange land

Albert Barnes Notes on the Bible

He shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease - The word "he," in this place, refers to the Messiah, if the interpretation of the former part of the verse is correct, for there can be no doubt that it is the same person who is mentioned in the phrase "he shall confirm the covenant with many.

Jamieson, Faussett and Brown Commentary

Dan 9:27 - he shall confirm the covenant--Christ. The confirmation of the covenant is assigned to Him also elsewhere. Isa_42:6, "I will give thee for a covenant of the people" (that is, He in whom the covenant between Israel and God is personally expressed); compare Luk_22:20, "The new testament in My blood"; Mal_3:1, "the angel of the covenant"; Jer_31:31-34, describes the Messianic covenant in full.

Matthew Henry's Commentary of the Whole Bible

(note: Matthew Henry's study places the end of the 490 years between the hour that Christ died, which agrees with his opinion, to 37 years after the death of Christ!

(The hour of Christ's death)

The learned Mr. Poole, in his Latin Synopsis, has a vast and most elaborate collection of what has been said, pro and con, concerning the different beginnings of these weeks, with which the learned may entertain themselves. [2.] Concerning the termination of them; and here likewise interpreters are not agreed. Some make them to end at the death of Christ, and think the express words of this famous prophecy will warrant us to conclude that from this very hour when Gabriel spoke to Daniel, at the time of the evening oblation, to the hour when Christ died, which was towards evening too, it was exactly 490 years; and I am willing enough to be of that opinion.

(3 1/2 yrs after the death of Christ)

But others think, because it is said that in the midst of the weeks (that is, the last of the seventy weeks) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, they end three years and a half after the death of Christ, when the Jews having rejected the gospel, the apostles turned to the Gentiles. But those who make them to end precisely at the death of Christ read it thus, “He shall make strong the testament to the many; the last seven, or the last week, yea, half that seven, or half that week (namely, the latter half, the three years and a half which Christ spent in his public ministry), shall bring to an end sacrifice and oblation.”

(37 years after the death of Christ)

Others make these 490 years to end with the destruction of Jerusalem, about thirty-seven years after the death of Christ, because these seventy weeks are said to be determined upon the people of the Jews and the holy city; and much is said here concerning the destruction of the city and the sanctuary. [3.] Concerning the division of them into seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks, and one week; and the reason of this is as hard to account for as any thing else. In the first seven weeks, or forty-nine years, the temple and city were built; and in the last single week Christ preached his gospel, by which the Jewish economy was taken down, and the foundations were laid of the gospel city and temple, which were to be built upon the ruins of the former.

Conclusion

Identifying the 70th week as the Great Tribulation of a future date, was not even an option in Henry's study nor by any other noted scholar in his day! It is a Modern Day teaching!)

I trust that the Tribulation period is not a clear cut 7 Year period. The Great Tribulation does not have an exact, determinable, beginning date, which begins at the rapture of the church with the signing of a peace treaty between Israel and their enemies as pre-tribbers teach!  I do not anticipate a "covenent" being made by the anti-christ that would start a 7 year agreement which would then be broken after 3 1/2 years as many teachers declare. I contend that Daniel chapter 9 is NOT a prophecy for end times events! It is a fulfilled prophecy!

Although I agree that the scriptures do show a 3 1/2 year period in Rev. 11:3, I contend that the 7 year tribulation has no scriptural support to give it credence as being such a major doctrine it has become and believed by many Christians today!

Rev 11:3  And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

http://crossbearer-brian.tripod.com/id234.htm

I posted the following in another thread, that is pertinent to one if the issue in the above post.  To ID the "prince of the people to come," in Dan.9:26, as follows:

>>>As a point of Scriptural fact about the "prince of the people to come," in Dan.9

Dan.9:26 "After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing.g The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed"

Many well known Christian expositors refer to the prince of the people to come, in verse 26, as the "he" who confirms a covenant for many, in verse 27.  However, the prince of the people to come, translates into the historical fact, was General Titus, and the people, the Roman army.  The Scriptures do not support this prince to be the "he," i.e., the Antichrist of verse 27.  69 of the 70 weeks of Daniel, 483 years, were fulfilled at the end of verse 26, in 70 A.D. Followed by the interval we are no living in, consisting of the entire Church age.  Terminating with the rapture of the Church, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28; 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thes.2:3 and 7-8.  Followed by Dan.9:27, the revealing of the "he/Antichrist who triggers the the 7 year tribulation; the Day of the Lord; terminating with the second coming of Jesus, WITH  His Church following Him; dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, on Rev.19:14: when Jesus ends the tribulation at the battle of Armageddon, recorded in Rev.10:11-21.<<<

 

Qyasar93   

Edited by Quasar93

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9 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

Cat among the pigeons. I trust the guy I quoted this from (2005) is OK with this. But i have some serious questions for EVERYBODY.

The False expectation of a 7 year tribulation comes from the scripture in Daniel 9:27. I wish to prove here, that this entire premise is error and cannot be used to formulate this proposition! Those who preach a 7 year tribulation, have surgically removed a single portion of scripture out of context, and taken an already fulfilled prophecy, (which fortold the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.) and cast it 2,000 years into the future, to promote a false teaching and support their "pre-tribulation" rapture doctrine.

This page is an addition to my main page dealing with the rapture. I believe in a tribulation and the rapture which will follow, that's right, "follow" the tribulation (post-tribulation rapture). This page simply contends with the "7" year tribulation theory built by many modern day preachers.

(Dan 9:24-27)  Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.  (25)  Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. (26)  And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. (27)  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Here is a briefing on the above noted verses in Daniel chapter 9

9:24  Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.  

70 weeks (490 years) were determined for the Jews to cease their sins! Daniel's prophecy was written around 600 B.C. and as his prophecy continues, will prophetically point to the exact date of the coming Messiah!

9:25  Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

In this verse, we have a time frame of events leading to the time when the Messiah, Jesus Christ, shall come!

The “Treasury of Scriptural Knowledge” illustrates the time frame as:

7 weeks       49  years     for the Restoration of Jerusalem

62 weeks   434  years    from that date to the announcement of the Messiah by John the Baptist

1 week            7 years    for the ministry of John and of Christ to the crucifixion

70 weeks    490 years


The commentators seem to agree that the time frame commences with Artaxerxes around 457-445 BC who gave a decree to Nehemiah to rebuild Jerusalem.

9:26  And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

The Messiah is “cut off” and then it talks about a “prince that shall come and destroy the city…”  The scholars all have their formulas for exacting the date of the coming of Jesus Christ through this scripture, but it is certain, that these events were fulfilled with Jesus nearly 2,000 years ago!

This is the verse where the Pre-trib teachers destroy Biblical prophecy and force it into a current day event! They make this “prince” to be the antichrist of a future time which is yet to come! From the first half of the verse, which speaks of the death of the Messiah, to the “prince”, they have added (as of today) nearly 2,000 years of time!

Adam Clarke's commentary declares:

And the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary - By the “prince” Titus, the son of Vespasian, is plainly intended; and “the people of that prince” are no other than the Romans, who, according to the prophecy, destroyed the sanctuary, hakkodesh, the holy place or temple, and, as a flood, swept away all, till the total destruction of that obstinate people finished the war. (9:26)

These seven years, added to the four hundred and eighty-three, complete the four hundred and ninety years, or seventy prophetic weeks; so that the whole of this prophecy, from the times and corresponding events, has been fulfilled to the very letter.

In my study library, the other Commentators all agree that this Prince is speaking of Vespasian (or his son Titus) and the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans. (ref. John Gill's Commentary, Jamieson, Fausset and Brown Commentary, Treasury of Scriptural Knowledge and John Wesley).

The following verse is where the Pre-Trib teachers have built the 7 year tribulation!

9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

While each of these commentators differ as to which of the two persons this verse is speaking about that makes the covenant for one week, Jesus the Messiah or Titus, it is clear that the “he” of verse 27 can ONLY be one of these two, and NOT a prophecy of the antichrist 2,000 years later!

How any student of Bible prophecy can take this verse which was fulfilled nearly 2,000 years ago, and throw it into the great Tribulation is beyond my comprehension. These teachers are deceitful in their strategy, but effective to sway the unlearned and those who do not know how to rightly divide the word of God! It is interesting how this scripture in Daniel is so very detailed to give the exact timing of the rebuilding of Jerusalem to the coming of our Lord, and then to the destruction of Jerusalem. Then, according to those who teach the 7 year tribulation, the scripture silently projects the final "week" over 2,000 years into the future without any reference to the missing 2,000 + years! Assuming Artaxerxes gave his order in the year 457 B.C., and today's date of 2005 A.D., the 70 weeks (490 years) prophecy has, to date, become a 2,462 year prophecy (or 351 + weeks and still counting)! Doesn't this seem suspicious to you? I contend, in agreement with Adam Clarke, that the 70 weeks are a fulfilled prophecy.

"These seven years, added to the four hundred and eighty-three, complete the four hundred and ninety years, or seventy (70) prophetic weeks; so that the whole of this prophecy, from the times and corresponding events, has been fulfilled to the very letter." Adam Clarke 

The Scholars Commentaries have much detail to write about these verses in Daniel chapter 9. But the clear verdict, is that they all agree that the prophecy is complete! The only varience, is the question as to whether the scripture was speaking of Jesus, or Titus in verse 27. If you wish to dig deeper, you can download the Bible program with these commentators at http://www.e-sword.net

John Gill's Commentary

and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease; the daily sacrifice of the Jews, and all their other offerings; and which was literally fulfilled "in the half part" of this week, as it may be rendered; towards the close of the latter half of it, when the city of Jerusalem, being closely besieged by Titus, what through the closeness of the siege, the divisions of the people, and the want both of time and men, and beasts to offer, the daily sacrifice ceased, as Josephus says, to the great grief of the people; nor have the Jews, ever since the destruction of their city and temple, offered any sacrifice, esteeming it unlawful so to do in a strange land

Albert Barnes Notes on the Bible

He shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease - The word "he," in this place, refers to the Messiah, if the interpretation of the former part of the verse is correct, for there can be no doubt that it is the same person who is mentioned in the phrase "he shall confirm the covenant with many.

Jamieson, Faussett and Brown Commentary

Dan 9:27 - he shall confirm the covenant--Christ. The confirmation of the covenant is assigned to Him also elsewhere. Isa_42:6, "I will give thee for a covenant of the people" (that is, He in whom the covenant between Israel and God is personally expressed); compare Luk_22:20, "The new testament in My blood"; Mal_3:1, "the angel of the covenant"; Jer_31:31-34, describes the Messianic covenant in full.

Matthew Henry's Commentary of the Whole Bible

(note: Matthew Henry's study places the end of the 490 years between the hour that Christ died, which agrees with his opinion, to 37 years after the death of Christ!

(The hour of Christ's death)

The learned Mr. Poole, in his Latin Synopsis, has a vast and most elaborate collection of what has been said, pro and con, concerning the different beginnings of these weeks, with which the learned may entertain themselves. [2.] Concerning the termination of them; and here likewise interpreters are not agreed. Some make them to end at the death of Christ, and think the express words of this famous prophecy will warrant us to conclude that from this very hour when Gabriel spoke to Daniel, at the time of the evening oblation, to the hour when Christ died, which was towards evening too, it was exactly 490 years; and I am willing enough to be of that opinion.

(3 1/2 yrs after the death of Christ)

But others think, because it is said that in the midst of the weeks (that is, the last of the seventy weeks) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, they end three years and a half after the death of Christ, when the Jews having rejected the gospel, the apostles turned to the Gentiles. But those who make them to end precisely at the death of Christ read it thus, “He shall make strong the testament to the many; the last seven, or the last week, yea, half that seven, or half that week (namely, the latter half, the three years and a half which Christ spent in his public ministry), shall bring to an end sacrifice and oblation.”

(37 years after the death of Christ)

Others make these 490 years to end with the destruction of Jerusalem, about thirty-seven years after the death of Christ, because these seventy weeks are said to be determined upon the people of the Jews and the holy city; and much is said here concerning the destruction of the city and the sanctuary. [3.] Concerning the division of them into seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks, and one week; and the reason of this is as hard to account for as any thing else. In the first seven weeks, or forty-nine years, the temple and city were built; and in the last single week Christ preached his gospel, by which the Jewish economy was taken down, and the foundations were laid of the gospel city and temple, which were to be built upon the ruins of the former.

Conclusion

Identifying the 70th week as the Great Tribulation of a future date, was not even an option in Henry's study nor by any other noted scholar in his day! It is a Modern Day teaching!)

I trust that the Tribulation period is not a clear cut 7 Year period. The Great Tribulation does not have an exact, determinable, beginning date, which begins at the rapture of the church with the signing of a peace treaty between Israel and their enemies as pre-tribbers teach!  I do not anticipate a "covenent" being made by the anti-christ that would start a 7 year agreement which would then be broken after 3 1/2 years as many teachers declare. I contend that Daniel chapter 9 is NOT a prophecy for end times events! It is a fulfilled prophecy!

Although I agree that the scriptures do show a 3 1/2 year period in Rev. 11:3, I contend that the 7 year tribulation has no scriptural support to give it credence as being such a major doctrine it has become and believed by many Christians today!

Rev 11:3  And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

http://crossbearer-brian.tripod.com/id234.htm

Comes now Views from Scriptural facts that refute some of the above post:

Yes, quite right, "he" who confirms a covenant with many, in Dan.927, is indeed the Antichrist as follows below:

(1) ANTICHRIST: Applying the accepted rule of interpretation and observing the text for the nearest antecedent of the pronoun he (without bias or influence by other "experts"), this he most closely parallels the prince who is to comein the previous passage (Daniel 9:26). This is the conclusion reached by most conservative evangelical commentaries, who go on to identify him as the Little Horn (Antichrist) who "came up among the (10) horns" of the fourth beast (fourth kingdom ~ "Revived Rome") chapter 7 of Daniel (Da 7:8,11-note Da 7:2021-note).

It is interesting that both Christ and Antichrist are referred to as "prince" (synonymous with "king"), for the prefix "anti-" means the regal imposter is not only opposed to or against Christ, but "instead of" or a substitute for the real Christ.

We know that the prince's people (Rome) destroyed Jerusalem in 70 A.D., and can deduce that this coming princehas his ancestral roots in the ancient Roman Empire and is thus part of what is often referred to as "the revived Roman Empire", the final Gentile world government described in Romans 7 (see Da 7:7-noteDa 7:19-note). In the Revelation of Jesus Christ, John records this vision...

And he stood on the sand of the seashore. And I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems ("ten king stage" of the beast in Da 7), and on his heads were blasphemous names. 2 And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion (Ed: Note how this is the reverse of the sequence of same beasts in Da 7:12,3456-note - John is looking back in time and sees the leopard first = Greece, bear = Medo-Persia, Lion = Babylon). And the dragon (Satan) gave him (Antichrist) his power and his throne and great authority. (Notice how the term "beast" merges subtlety from a beastly kingdom to the king of that kingdom in the latter part of the verse) (Re 13:1-noteRe 13:2-note; see also study of The Beast; and Beasts, Heads, and Horns)

(2) CHRIST: Some such as Edward Young and Phillip Mauro interpret the "He" as a reference to the Messiah primarily because the entire prophecy is about the Messiah and the premise that there is no (to use their words) "future 'prince' making a covenant with" Israel. This interpretation makes little sense because the new covenant in His blood is an everlasting covenant, not a seven year covenant and not a covenant which He will ever break. God is a covenant keeping God! How can the reference be to Christ when we have just been introduced to the prince who is to come which describes one out of the Roman empire? Christ did not come from the Roman Empire but from Israel. Furthermore, when did Christ make a firm covenant with many Jews for one week (seven year period)? And how can it be said of Christ that “in the midst of the week” He caused the sacrifices to cease? Sacrifices continued in the Temple some 40 years after Messiah was cut off, well past the 7 years of the 70th Week. Clearly, the "he" is not Christ.

Harry Ironside agrees that "He" is not the Messiah writing...

Ere closing I briefly notice a rather peculiar interpretation which is frequently given to the 27th verse. It is said that the Lord Jesus is Himself to be the prince that shall come who confirms the covenant for one week. His own crucifixion is supposed to be the event which caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease. But neither chronologically nor doctrinally will this stand for a moment, if examined in the light of other scriptures. With whom did the Lord Jesus ever confirm a covenant for seven years? His precious blood is called ”the blood of the everlasting covenant;” not a covenant for one week of years. We may rest assured it is not Messiah at all, but the blasphemous prince who is yet to come, who will fulfil what is predicted in this verse.

How near this world may be to the actual entering upon all these things no man can say, but it is the part of wisdom to learn from the prophetic Scriptures, and to turn now to Him who alone can save; to own Him as Redeemer and Lord, and thus be certain of being caught up to meet Him when He comes in the clouds, ere the time comes for His righteous judgment to be poured out upon this poor world. (Daniel - H A Ironside) (Logos) (Wordsearch)

Ray adds...

In deciding between the Messiah or the “prince to come” as the antecedent, Barnes contends “it is not reasonable to suppose that the latter is referred to, because it is said (Da 9:26) that the effect and the purpose of his coming would be to ‘destroy the city and the sanctuary.’ In other words Barnes is saying the prince is coming to make peace. He is wrong on two accounts. Da 9:26 says it is the people of the prince, not the prince himself, who execute the destruction. Too, he is implying it is reasonable to suppose the Messiah would bring about the devastation. To assume Da 9:27 deals with Christ is presumptuous, for that is the very question for which interpreters are seeking an answer. Lastly, it is not unthinkable a future leader would bring about such an agreement with Israel; people will do almost anything to have peace in the Middle East....Leupold and Keil are some of the few non-pre-millenarians who admit the “he” is the antichrist.  (A Study of Daniel 9:24 - 27, Part III)

(3) ANTIOCHUS EPIPHANES: (See related discussion on Antiochus Epiphanes  - Da 8:9-noteDa 8:17-noteDa 8:19-note; see also Daniel notes and additional discussion) The liberal commentator Montgomery  (who to my utter amazement does not even interpret  Da 9:2526 as a prophecy of Christ's first coming - See list of other Non-Christological Interpreters) identifies the "He" as Antiochus Epiphanes. Montgomery feels that this prophecy was fulfilled in the second century before Christ noting how apostate Jews cooperated with Antiochus (see 1Mac 1:1112,131415).

(4) A WEEK: The pronoun He has even been interpreted as a week by some who take he as neuter (not masculine), but such an interpretation of makes absolutely no sense in context. It does emphasize how far some commentators are willing to go in an attempt to "jettison" a literal, futuristic interpretation.

In summary, even applying the elementary grammatical rule of examination of the context for the nearest antecedent noun ("prince" in Da 9:26), there is little question that the pronoun He in Da 9:27 is the future Antichrist, the evil end times anti-Semitic leader who is known by many names in Scripture (see table). And as you review the list of the names of the Antichrist, remember that in Scripture one's name speaks of one's character.


For the complete article: http://www.preceptaustin.org/daniel_927.htm


Quasar93

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11 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

Cat among the pigeons. I trust the guy I quoted this from (2005) is OK with this. But i have some serious questions for EVERYBODY.

The False expectation of a 7 year tribulation comes from the scripture in Daniel 9:27. I wish to prove here, that this entire premise is error and cannot be used to formulate this proposition! Those who preach a 7 year tribulation, have surgically removed a single portion of scripture out of context, and taken an already fulfilled prophecy, (which fortold the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.) and cast it 2,000 years into the future, to promote a false teaching and support their "pre-tribulation" rapture doctrine.

This page is an addition to my main page dealing with the rapture. I believe in a tribulation and the rapture which will follow, that's right, "follow" the tribulation (post-tribulation rapture). This page simply contends with the "7" year tribulation theory built by many modern day preachers.

(Dan 9:24-27)  Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.  (25)  Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. (26)  And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. (27)  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Here is a briefing on the above noted verses in Daniel chapter 9

9:24  Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.  

70 weeks (490 years) were determined for the Jews to cease their sins! Daniel's prophecy was written around 600 B.C. and as his prophecy continues, will prophetically point to the exact date of the coming Messiah!

9:25  Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

In this verse, we have a time frame of events leading to the time when the Messiah, Jesus Christ, shall come!

The “Treasury of Scriptural Knowledge” illustrates the time frame as:

7 weeks       49  years     for the Restoration of Jerusalem

62 weeks   434  years    from that date to the announcement of the Messiah by John the Baptist

1 week            7 years    for the ministry of John and of Christ to the crucifixion

70 weeks    490 years


The commentators seem to agree that the time frame commences with Artaxerxes around 457-445 BC who gave a decree to Nehemiah to rebuild Jerusalem.

9:26  And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

The Messiah is “cut off” and then it talks about a “prince that shall come and destroy the city…”  The scholars all have their formulas for exacting the date of the coming of Jesus Christ through this scripture, but it is certain, that these events were fulfilled with Jesus nearly 2,000 years ago!

This is the verse where the Pre-trib teachers destroy Biblical prophecy and force it into a current day event! They make this “prince” to be the antichrist of a future time which is yet to come! From the first half of the verse, which speaks of the death of the Messiah, to the “prince”, they have added (as of today) nearly 2,000 years of time!

Adam Clarke's commentary declares:

And the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary - By the “prince” Titus, the son of Vespasian, is plainly intended; and “the people of that prince” are no other than the Romans, who, according to the prophecy, destroyed the sanctuary, hakkodesh, the holy place or temple, and, as a flood, swept away all, till the total destruction of that obstinate people finished the war. (9:26)

These seven years, added to the four hundred and eighty-three, complete the four hundred and ninety years, or seventy prophetic weeks; so that the whole of this prophecy, from the times and corresponding events, has been fulfilled to the very letter.

In my study library, the other Commentators all agree that this Prince is speaking of Vespasian (or his son Titus) and the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans. (ref. John Gill's Commentary, Jamieson, Fausset and Brown Commentary, Treasury of Scriptural Knowledge and John Wesley).

The following verse is where the Pre-Trib teachers have built the 7 year tribulation!

9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

While each of these commentators differ as to which of the two persons this verse is speaking about that makes the covenant for one week, Jesus the Messiah or Titus, it is clear that the “he” of verse 27 can ONLY be one of these two, and NOT a prophecy of the antichrist 2,000 years later!

How any student of Bible prophecy can take this verse which was fulfilled nearly 2,000 years ago, and throw it into the great Tribulation is beyond my comprehension. These teachers are deceitful in their strategy, but effective to sway the unlearned and those who do not know how to rightly divide the word of God! It is interesting how this scripture in Daniel is so very detailed to give the exact timing of the rebuilding of Jerusalem to the coming of our Lord, and then to the destruction of Jerusalem. Then, according to those who teach the 7 year tribulation, the scripture silently projects the final "week" over 2,000 years into the future without any reference to the missing 2,000 + years! Assuming Artaxerxes gave his order in the year 457 B.C., and today's date of 2005 A.D., the 70 weeks (490 years) prophecy has, to date, become a 2,462 year prophecy (or 351 + weeks and still counting)! Doesn't this seem suspicious to you? I contend, in agreement with Adam Clarke, that the 70 weeks are a fulfilled prophecy.

"These seven years, added to the four hundred and eighty-three, complete the four hundred and ninety years, or seventy (70) prophetic weeks; so that the whole of this prophecy, from the times and corresponding events, has been fulfilled to the very letter." Adam Clarke 

The Scholars Commentaries have much detail to write about these verses in Daniel chapter 9. But the clear verdict, is that they all agree that the prophecy is complete! The only varience, is the question as to whether the scripture was speaking of Jesus, or Titus in verse 27. If you wish to dig deeper, you can download the Bible program with these commentators at http://www.e-sword.net

John Gill's Commentary

and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease; the daily sacrifice of the Jews, and all their other offerings; and which was literally fulfilled "in the half part" of this week, as it may be rendered; towards the close of the latter half of it, when the city of Jerusalem, being closely besieged by Titus, what through the closeness of the siege, the divisions of the people, and the want both of time and men, and beasts to offer, the daily sacrifice ceased, as Josephus says, to the great grief of the people; nor have the Jews, ever since the destruction of their city and temple, offered any sacrifice, esteeming it unlawful so to do in a strange land

Albert Barnes Notes on the Bible

He shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease - The word "he," in this place, refers to the Messiah, if the interpretation of the former part of the verse is correct, for there can be no doubt that it is the same person who is mentioned in the phrase "he shall confirm the covenant with many.

Jamieson, Faussett and Brown Commentary

Dan 9:27 - he shall confirm the covenant--Christ. The confirmation of the covenant is assigned to Him also elsewhere. Isa_42:6, "I will give thee for a covenant of the people" (that is, He in whom the covenant between Israel and God is personally expressed); compare Luk_22:20, "The new testament in My blood"; Mal_3:1, "the angel of the covenant"; Jer_31:31-34, describes the Messianic covenant in full.

Matthew Henry's Commentary of the Whole Bible

(note: Matthew Henry's study places the end of the 490 years between the hour that Christ died, which agrees with his opinion, to 37 years after the death of Christ!

(The hour of Christ's death)

The learned Mr. Poole, in his Latin Synopsis, has a vast and most elaborate collection of what has been said, pro and con, concerning the different beginnings of these weeks, with which the learned may entertain themselves. [2.] Concerning the termination of them; and here likewise interpreters are not agreed. Some make them to end at the death of Christ, and think the express words of this famous prophecy will warrant us to conclude that from this very hour when Gabriel spoke to Daniel, at the time of the evening oblation, to the hour when Christ died, which was towards evening too, it was exactly 490 years; and I am willing enough to be of that opinion.

(3 1/2 yrs after the death of Christ)

But others think, because it is said that in the midst of the weeks (that is, the last of the seventy weeks) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, they end three years and a half after the death of Christ, when the Jews having rejected the gospel, the apostles turned to the Gentiles. But those who make them to end precisely at the death of Christ read it thus, “He shall make strong the testament to the many; the last seven, or the last week, yea, half that seven, or half that week (namely, the latter half, the three years and a half which Christ spent in his public ministry), shall bring to an end sacrifice and oblation.”

(37 years after the death of Christ)

Others make these 490 years to end with the destruction of Jerusalem, about thirty-seven years after the death of Christ, because these seventy weeks are said to be determined upon the people of the Jews and the holy city; and much is said here concerning the destruction of the city and the sanctuary. [3.] Concerning the division of them into seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks, and one week; and the reason of this is as hard to account for as any thing else. In the first seven weeks, or forty-nine years, the temple and city were built; and in the last single week Christ preached his gospel, by which the Jewish economy was taken down, and the foundations were laid of the gospel city and temple, which were to be built upon the ruins of the former.

Conclusion

Identifying the 70th week as the Great Tribulation of a future date, was not even an option in Henry's study nor by any other noted scholar in his day! It is a Modern Day teaching!)

I trust that the Tribulation period is not a clear cut 7 Year period. The Great Tribulation does not have an exact, determinable, beginning date, which begins at the rapture of the church with the signing of a peace treaty between Israel and their enemies as pre-tribbers teach!  I do not anticipate a "covenent" being made by the anti-christ that would start a 7 year agreement which would then be broken after 3 1/2 years as many teachers declare. I contend that Daniel chapter 9 is NOT a prophecy for end times events! It is a fulfilled prophecy!

Although I agree that the scriptures do show a 3 1/2 year period in Rev. 11:3, I contend that the 7 year tribulation has no scriptural support to give it credence as being such a major doctrine it has become and believed by many Christians today!

Rev 11:3  And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

http://crossbearer-brian.tripod.com/id234.htm

Justin, if you want to learn about bible prophecy, go directly to the source and read God's word in the bible. Those are just commentaries from individuals throwing out their own opinions, and in many cases they just contradict each other. Trying to learn the bible by accepting their views is like the blind following the blind as you're don't learn anymore than what they think they know.

The only way to be more knowledgeable than them is by studying the bible. 

 

 

 

 

 

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Pre-trib has to invent a future week from Daniel in order for the falsehood to work.

There are some 50k original scraps of 'bible'. Which one would you like me to study? There are just a handful of 'originals'... Qumran and 1952 discoveries are but copies of copies of copies...etc.

Prophesy is only accurate in hindsight - stop misleading believers please!!

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