The Dark Side of Christianity

[Heleadethme]

10 hours ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

Sister.   be blessed .   When the separating of the tares and wheat occurs.  IS at JESUS second coming .   He burns the tares,  gathers the wheat.

What you are saying is what occurs when a person truly is drawn to the LORD and then The ALMIGHTY begins HIS work within.

And yes,   in time IF they were in an error teaching non repenting of it church.  THEY will leave.  no peace , no joy , no fulfillment in the mix

for those WHO truly have the LORD.  ONLY truth can fulfill them.   Its like any kind of mix is just utter empty and what a drag on the soul.  But TRUTH

always lifts up the heart and rejoices it .   be blessed sister.   Oh I guess a good word for what you are saying would be...........AN EXODUS out of that system

.  OH that is occurring , has been.     Come ye out of her , lest ye be partakers of her sins and receive of her plagues.    From the beginning

the call was come ye out from among them.   BE YE HOLY , FOR HE IS HOLY.    Do all to win souls, do all to encourage  , but never sit unequally yoked in the mix.   

I hear you brother, and I believe the culmination of it will be at His coming for sure........meanwhile we are at the end of the age now and this exodus is a kind of separation the like of which seems to be unprecedented in church history, so it makes me wonder and ponder........it's as though the tares are being bundled together right now in their false unity which has left the wheat scattered in the field as it were, to finish maturing and waiting to be gathered.

Edited January 3, 2018 by Heleadethme

[Heleadethme]

15 hours ago, DesertSW said:

I know there are people who want to earn their way into heaven by doing good works and by not doing bad deeds. They want to become their own saviors, since they saved themselves because of their works.

A person like that is placing their faith in the power of themselves and their works. They become their own saviors.

I place my faith in the power & salvation of what Jesus Christ did on the cross. Not on myself or my works and deeds. I place all my faith in my Lord & Savior Jesus Christ and what He did on the cross to die for my sins and to rise 3 days later. That is where I put my faith. Not on words, not the power of my words or doing good works.

But like I said, this then becomes a debate about eternal security. That's not what my topic is about but some people keep returning to that topic.

Seems like it's related to your topic though brother.

I'm sure you don't mean to say that faith in Christ means we are to suddenly stop doing good deeds.......?  On the contrary, faith in Christ is what inspires good deeds, doesn't it.....?  Where it says our work is to believe on the one whom God sent........that means we follow Him, obey Him, and work the works of Him who sends us.  Doesn't mean we are trusting to our works, but that works are the outworking of our faith, it is the evidence and fruit of faith.

 

 

[TheMatrixHasU71]

On 12/26/2017 at 3:14 PM, DesertSW said:

It would take quite a bit of typing to go into deep detail on these betrayals but all of them involved true Believers who ended up betraying and hurting me in such ways that left deep scars that will never go away. These betrayals involved lying, breaking promises, breaking vows/covenants, leaving the faith/church, disobeying tenants of the faith and sinning against God and breaking clear Biblical tenants, church splits and behavior that would make unbelievers blush.

Such people are not likely to be true born again believers. We will all make mistakes occasionally, but you will not see a true born again believer LEAVING the faith in the way you speak

[Mike Mclees]

Rev 15: 1,2  ¹ And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. ² And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. ^{3 Re 15:1-3}

The angles have the bowls of Gods Wrath to punish the earth for unbelief. But just before they do John sees The true Bride of Christ standing on a sea of glass being honored of  God. and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name

Now paul says the church is taken up to heaven. Pre- Trb says this happens at the signing of the 7yr peace agreement with Israel and its enemies. But that is just what they say and no smoking gun that it will happen then. The word peace means peace. They also say the Temple must be rebuilt. so there would be no wrath and tribulations  during this time.

[Mike Mclees]

15 hours ago, Heleadethme said:

This is a bold thought.......but I wonder if this is part of the separation of wheat and tares going on now.

You might be careful not to through out the baby with the bathwater. Apostasy is an insidious disease but its been going on since before Constantine. I won't bore you with the details. It was the reformation that splintered the Church, but the Mother of harlots was the RCC. There are many sincere believers in these denominations, but Christ knows His true bride and will take her out like you said separating the tares from wheat. This comes with the mark of the beast. Read Rev 15

[Heleadethme]

24 minutes ago, Mike Mclees said:

You might be careful not to through out the baby with the bathwater. Apostasy is an insidious disease but its been going on since before Constantine. I won't bore you with the details. It was the reformation that splintered the Church, but the Mother of harlots was the RCC. There are many sincere believers in these denominations, but Christ knows His true bride and will take her out like you said separating the tares from wheat. This comes with the mark of the beast. Read Rev 15

Just discussing here, but I still think it's kind of both in a way brother......the delusion is sent by God as a judgment......those who take the mark and worship the beast will be under the delusion (judgment)......and it says in Revelation that those who don't come out of her will receive of her judgment (plagues).

[GandalfTheWise]

I saw the point of this thread as an honest warning against unrealistic expectations.   Some new Christians have an idealistic viewpoint that they will rarely if ever be mistreated or hurt by other Christians if they join the right church.  I think a reality check is reasonable.   All of us have had been disappointed and hurt at times in various churches by Christians (whether fake or real).  Dwelling on the details of that and rehashing that is potentially pointless.  In most cases, we can all just simply forgive, leave it behind, and go on.  It does not define the majority of relationships and actions in the church but it is frequently present in some form.

However, there are some people who have been devastatingly betrayed and had their lives turned upside down by other Christians, and sometimes more than once.  There are some times that you cannot walk away from the pain because the damage that was caused is with you day after day.  A couple we know is still paying off the debts several years later for having trusted a Christian business partner (who they had known and interacted a lot with in their church for years) who left them high and dry.  They are still active Christians and doing okay spiritually, but every time a bill arrives that they cannot pay is a stark reminder of what happened to them.  Every time the husband drove an hour one way to work, it was a reminder that he no longer had his own company a few blocks from home.   It's easy to talk about forgiveness for something that happened in the past and is long behind us.   But when there are daily and weekly and monthly reminders of ongoing effects of the betrayal that is a different matter.  Dismissing the deep hurt, pain, and ongoing damage that people in these types of situations are suffering and equating it to the occasional getting our toes steps on in church that we all experience is simply arrogant and unhelpful.

I didn't read the OP as proclaiming the certainty that everyone would be deeply betrayed and that no Christian could be trusted.  What I read was a heads up not to expect perfection.  When talking with my kids about different things in life, I didn't tell them to get home insurance, car insurance, life insurance, or health insurance because their house was sure to burn down, that they were sure to be in an accident, that one of them was sure to die young, or anything like that.  I told them that it was pooled risk in the unlikely event something like that happened that it wouldn't bankrupt them or their family.  I view talking to young Christians about having unrealistic expectations in a similar way.  It's not about bashing the church and Christians and telling them not to trust anyone.  It's about telling them that imperfection exists in the church and to use their common sense about which Christians that they form tight relational, legal, or economic bonds with.

 

[Jaydog1976]

On 12/26/2017 at 7:14 PM, DesertSW said:

Let me first start off with a disclaimer. I believe in the Word of God and in all the fundamental tenants of Christianity. I became a Christian back in 1993 when I accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. I gave up trusting in my good works and put all my faith in what Jesus had done on the cross, for my salvation.

The "dark side" I speak of is something that is not really talked about or discussed in churches. I've attended all types of protestant churches in the past 25 years (Baptist, denominational, non-denominational) and not one really discussed this aspect of Christianity. It is factually evident and not just experiential, although I have personally experienced it, it is backed by factual evidence.

This dark side is about how born-again Christians will betray you and the faith. I've personally experienced 10 of those betrayals over the course of 25 years. The latest one which was my wife, and her parents, was the most devastating. You can read about it here:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/211844-my-marriage-divorce-testimony/

It would take quite a bit of typing to go into deep detail on these betrayals but all of them involved true Believers who ended up betraying and hurting me in such ways that left deep scars that will never go away. These betrayals involved lying, breaking promises, breaking vows/covenants, leaving the faith/church, disobeying tenants of the faith and sinning against God and breaking clear Biblical tenants, church splits and behavior that would make unbelievers blush.

Modern Christianity kind of paints a picture that once you are surrounded by other Christians, things will be OK and that they will always love and honor God. That is completely false and this dark side is not discussed because it would turn off those "seekers" or unbelievers as they would clearly see hypocrisy. If the saved Christian church is no different than the unsaved sector of society, then it offers nothing different than secular society.

If we are honest, then we should put out a disclaimer in the churches. Something like this should be in the doctrinal statement after all the major tenants of the faith are posted:

Having stated the above doctrinal positions, we want to clearly state that there are times when true believers and followers of the Christian faith will do things that will grieve and shock you, sin and dishonor God, His Word and even hurt other Christians in that process. This is part of the free will that God gives believers. Even though they are indwelt with the Holy Spirit, believers will at times hurt you and sin against you and God. These incidents will really hurt you and rock you to the core as one believes that a Christian shouldn't act that way, which they shouldn't, but can and will act that way. Pastors will sin, wives & husbands will deceive & sin, brothers and sisters in Christ will lie, dishonor, sin and hurt you.

It is important to understand this facet of the Christian faith. To enter into the Christian faith thinking that other Christians can't or will not do such things is only setting up yourself for disappointment and shock. That might, in effect, make your faith stumble. So it is best that we as a church make this disclaimer that Christians can and will do these things. It is a sad but factual truth of the human being, even when indwelt with the Holy Spirit, that they will do these things. So it is best to be prepared when those incidents occur that it is not the Christian faith that failed, but that person who failed. They failed to follow God and His Word. Christians will disappoint you, sin against you and hurt you, please be prepared that this can and most likely will occur in your lifelong journey as a Christian.

 

So in short, Christians still have a sin nature that gets in the way every once in awhile. Yes Christians are still people and people will disappoint you at some point whether they are Christians or not. Our trust shouldn't be in people but in God. God does not disappoint man does. 

[Jaydog1976]

On 12/26/2017 at 8:54 PM, HAZARD said:

Those you speak about in my opinion are Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) so called Christians. They have it in their head that once they turn to Jesus, confess their sins, they believe they are saved forever, regardless of what sins they continue to commit, what they say, do, or not do. They never truly get out of the sin business because they believe, once saved, always saved.

Do you believe that we can lose our salvation or just trying to generalize a belief and not really stating the actually belief correctly? 

 

[existential mabel]

On 02/01/2018 at 11:03 AM, Butero said:

What happens if you lose your faith?  True faith in Christ brings about a changed life.  That is why James says faith without works is dead.  A lot of people claim to have their faith in Christ, but the way they live shows they don't.  

not only this but the young in christ (not age related only duration related) see this and dont know any better until and unless they start to get really serious with bible study as it takes a long time to shake off the worldly stuff (it has me anyway only just ....after 3 going into 4 years of bible study).

i am beginning to see so much more regarding the fruit ...praise the Lord that he has his hand on this i believe .

On 02/01/2018 at 3:32 PM, Mike Mclees said:

I have seen this worldliness in the churches for years. False doctrines and peculiar beliefs. Most are traditionalized by the institutional church. Few are willing to brake free of it. They don't know how to know Christ any other way. Its a type of bondage. Still there are those who have been able to brake free and still keep their faith in Christ, I being one. Denominationalism is confusion. It does not reflect the church that began at Pentecost. No name was given to the church by Christ or the apostles. The church was the church wherever the church was formed. They all followed the traditions given by the apostles.

Today I do not condemn those who belong to certain church. This is because they need fellowship and hear the word of God in which we receive life. We are not saved by the place of meeting but by the word of God. The Bible instructs us and it is to be a lamp unto our feet. Tares and wheat grow together unto the harvest. But if you are one who understands and you are strong in your faith I would divorce the denominational church system

ah i must have an antanae for this stuff as i have never really felt part of the church. when i did go to the evangelical church i started to feel like a bloated sheep on a conveyor belt. all this information and no putting it into action sermons/lecture lasted 50 mins and more. it left me feeling bewildered and feeling like a failure as i didnt have a personal relationship with Jesus as all the other folk seemed to have

18 hours ago, Heleadethme said:

This is a bold thought.......but I wonder if this is part of the separation of wheat and tares going on now.

yes interesting thought that!

15 hours ago, DesertSW said:

Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Jesus Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall not flesh be justified."

Galatians 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. "

 

Do you read your neighbors mail and then apply your neighbors mail to your life and pay their bills, their mortgage payment, etc?

James is addressing the 12 tribes of Israel in James. James 1:1 "James, a servant of God and of the LORD Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations: Greetings. "

Paul is addressing the Church/The Body of Christ in Galatians.

When you apply someone else's mail as your own, you will live a life of confusion and utter chaos. The same applies in the Bible.

 

most excellant analogy these stay in my head so much better!

15 hours ago, DesertSW said:

The point was made clear in the first postings. It is to let Christians know that they can be let down by other Christians. To be clear, I was NOT let down by "proclaiming believers" but I was let down by real Christian believers.

Its purpose was to warn other Christians that this might happen in their lives. To be warned is to be prepared and forearmed. Maybe I was naive to believe other Christians would do this to me. So when it happened then it was that much harder on me. I just don't want that disappointment to happen to other Christians.

ah yes i have and continue to get stung by believing folk long story...so now. enough time to change it. is my resolution dont get angry just untangle myself from the bad fruit  and refix my focus and boundaries. they will be my teaching material ! i actually like these people!

Edited January 3, 2018 by existential mabel