Looking for some opinions

[TheMatrixHasU71]

16 hours ago, inchrist said:

All it states is Enoch was taken; it does not state to heaven. The assumption must be proven the direction was heaven. Please provide the facts.

I would very much like to see you harmonize the records of Enoch listed as those who died in faith.

As well as Christ direct witness that no man has ascended to heaven…..

I’m very keen to see this…...

 

If you walked into a crime scene and saw the victims blood splashed all over the wall, the blood does cry out to you. As it bears the testimony of the crime. This is just simple straight forward logic. 

Further if God didn’t want us focused on the testimonial of the blood; then God could easily have referred directly to Abels immortal soul crying out from the netherworld but God didn’t did he?

Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people.

Were Abrahams ancestors such righteous people that they went to paradise when they died?

Because we  find in Joshua 24:2  that his ancestors were idolators

So Abraham would have to be in hell now and not paradise to be "gathered" to his people

Psalms 86:13

This verse doesn’t inform us about what really happens to the soul at death, or if anything happens to him or her.

Just states from the depth of the grave…..how do you infer  immortal souls from this?

Is this verse written from the netherworld? If so I better tear this out of the Bible….As I will not take part in any form of necromancy.

Welcome to the 7 bowls

10 The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness. People gnawed their tongues in agony 11 and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done.

Their smoke ascended for ever and ever, doesn’t state their torment was for ever and ever.

Since when do evil doers have the gift of immortality? This gift is reserved only for the righteous.

 

Well at least you're  disproving one of the “proof positive texts”   for immortal  soul.  It’s a start; albeit your interpretation is still faulty. But nonetheless; that is a different subject. But enough to agree then that the transfiguration was not the immortal souls of Moses and Elijah.

 

This has already been dealt with refuted with Daniels scripture.

 

No; 

18For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body, but made alive in the spirit, 19in which He also went and preached to the spirits inprison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, while the ark was being built. In the ark a few people, only eight souls, were saved through water

Greek grammar dictates the "he" must revert back to it’s closest identifier 

the spirit, in which He also went and preached to the spirits inprison

It is the Holy Spirit that went to go preach. The closest identifier.

Now, notice in verse 20, the words “when” - when  God waited patiently in the days of Noah.” 

This tells you the preaching was done in the days of Noah to those who were disobedient.....

What did He say then? Because you’re going to go by the assumption of the translator of the comma right?
 

Sighs now I remember why I put you on ignore some time ago, looks like I have to do it again. 

Jesus and the apostles themselves could come down to correct you on your heresies and lack of understanding of scripture and you will find an excuse to correct even them. You are totally rejecting what came from the wisest of scholarship in favour of your own heretical ideas. 

Matthew Henry's commentary on Enoch

Enoch was the seventh from Adam. Godliness is walking with God: which shows reconciliation to God, for two cannot walk together except they be agreed, Am 3:3. It includes all the parts of a godly, righteous, and sober life. To walk with God, is to set God always before us, to act as always under his eye. It is constantly to care, in all things to please God, and in nothing to offend him. It is to be followers of him as dear children. The Holy

Spirit, instead of saying, Enoch lived, says, Enoch walked with God. This was his constant care and work; while others lived to themselves and the world, he lived to God. It was the joy of his life. Enoch was removed to a better world. As he did not live like the rest of mankind, so he did not leave the world by death as they did. He was not found, because God had translated him, Heb 11:5. He had lived but 365 years, which, as men's ages were then, was

but the midst of a man's days. God often takes those soonest whom he loves best; the time they lose on earth, is gained in heaven, to their unspeakable advantage. See how Enoch's removal is expressed: he was not, for God took him. He was not any longer in this world; he was changed, as the saints shall be, who are alive at Christ's second coming. Those who begin to walk with God when young, may expect to walk with him long, comfortably, and usefully. The true christian's steady walk in

holiness, through many a year, till God takes him, will best recommend that religion which many oppose and many abuse. And walking with God well agrees with the cares, comforts, and duties of life. (Ge 5:25-32)

Ellicot's commentary

 

God took him.—Instead of the mournful refrain and he died, coming like a surprise at the end of each of these protracted lives, we have here an early removal into another world, suggesting already that long life was not the highest form of blessing; and this removal is without pain, decay, or death into the immediate presence of God. Thus one of Adam’s posterity after the fall succeeded in doing, though, doubtless, not without special help and blessing from the Almighty, that wherein Adam in Paradise had failed. We learn, too, from Jude 1:14-15, that Enoch’s was a removal from prevailing evil to happiness secured. Already, probably, the intermarriages between the Cainites and Sethites had begun and with it the corruption of mankind. Philippson, while regarding the phrase “God took him” as a euphemism for an early death, yet finds in it an indication of there being another life besides this upon earth. We may further add that Enoch’s translation took place about the middle of the antediluvian period, and that his age was 365, the number of the days of the year. As, however, the Hebrew year consisted of only 354 days, and the Chaldean of 360, the conclusion that Enoch was a solar deity has no solid foundation to rest upon. But see Note on Genesis 8:14.

And any references to Abraham's (or anyone's) 'fathers' doesnt always have to refer to their direct relations

But some of Abraham's oldest ancestors did call upon the name of the Lord

Genesis 4:26

And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.

 

As for the immortal souls suffering forever in hell where there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, and the parable of Lazarus and the rich man they are plenty self explanatory. They shouldnt need any further explanation. They prove the immortality of the soul for the righteous who go to heaven and for the wicked who suffer eternally in hell (their own choice, not God's)

If the soul of the wicked was not immortal as well, its a complete oxymoron to suggest they cannot be tormented forever and ever.

 

I wont go on further re-explaining the rest of it for you are still immersed in your own false church's teaching and have no interest in listening to the real truth

I rebuke you in the name of Jesus for you are calling the word of God a LIE in favour of man made heresies. Repent or you too will face the lake of fire.

 

 

[frienduff thaylorde]

7 hours ago, TheMatrixHasU71 said:

Sighs now I remember why I put you on ignore some time ago, looks like I have to do it again. 

Jesus and the apostles themselves could come down to correct you on your heresies and lack of understanding of scripture and you will find an excuse to correct even them. You are totally rejecting what came from the wisest of scholarship in favour of your own heretical ideas. 

Matthew Henry's commentary on Enoch

Enoch was the seventh from Adam. Godliness is walking with God: which shows reconciliation to God, for two cannot walk together except they be agreed, Am 3:3. It includes all the parts of a godly, righteous, and sober life. To walk with God, is to set God always before us, to act as always under his eye. It is constantly to care, in all things to please God, and in nothing to offend him. It is to be followers of him as dear children. The Holy

Spirit, instead of saying, Enoch lived, says, Enoch walked with God. This was his constant care and work; while others lived to themselves and the world, he lived to God. It was the joy of his life. Enoch was removed to a better world. As he did not live like the rest of mankind, so he did not leave the world by death as they did. He was not found, because God had translated him, Heb 11:5. He had lived but 365 years, which, as men's ages were then, was

but the midst of a man's days. God often takes those soonest whom he loves best; the time they lose on earth, is gained in heaven, to their unspeakable advantage. See how Enoch's removal is expressed: he was not, for God took him. He was not any longer in this world; he was changed, as the saints shall be, who are alive at Christ's second coming. Those who begin to walk with God when young, may expect to walk with him long, comfortably, and usefully. The true christian's steady walk in

holiness, through many a year, till God takes him, will best recommend that religion which many oppose and many abuse. And walking with God well agrees with the cares, comforts, and duties of life. (Ge 5:25-32)

Ellicot's commentary

 

God took him.—Instead of the mournful refrain and he died, coming like a surprise at the end of each of these protracted lives, we have here an early removal into another world, suggesting already that long life was not the highest form of blessing; and this removal is without pain, decay, or death into the immediate presence of God. Thus one of Adam’s posterity after the fall succeeded in doing, though, doubtless, not without special help and blessing from the Almighty, that wherein Adam in Paradise had failed. We learn, too, from Jude 1:14-15, that Enoch’s was a removal from prevailing evil to happiness secured. Already, probably, the intermarriages between the Cainites and Sethites had begun and with it the corruption of mankind. Philippson, while regarding the phrase “God took him” as a euphemism for an early death, yet finds in it an indication of there being another life besides this upon earth. We may further add that Enoch’s translation took place about the middle of the antediluvian period, and that his age was 365, the number of the days of the year. As, however, the Hebrew year consisted of only 354 days, and the Chaldean of 360, the conclusion that Enoch was a solar deity has no solid foundation to rest upon. But see Note on Genesis 8:14.

And any references to Abraham's (or anyone's) 'fathers' doesnt always have to refer to their direct relations

But some of Abraham's oldest ancestors did call upon the name of the Lord

Genesis 4:26

And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.

 

As for the immortal souls suffering forever in hell where there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, and the parable of Lazarus and the rich man they are plenty self explanatory. They shouldnt need any further explanation. They prove the immortality of the soul for the righteous who go to heaven and for the wicked who suffer eternally in hell (their own choice, not God's)

If the soul of the wicked was not immortal as well, its a complete oxymoron to suggest they cannot be tormented forever and ever.

 

I wont go on further re-explaining the rest of it for you are still immersed in your own false church's teaching and have no interest in listening to the real truth

I rebuke you in the name of Jesus for you are calling the word of God a LIE in favour of man made heresies. Repent or you too will face the lake of fire.

 

 

Jesus and the apostles themselves could come down to correct you on your heresies and lack of understanding of scripture and you will find an excuse to correct even them. You are totally rejecting what came from the wisest of scholarship in favour of your own heretical ideas

 

I stopped at this point to make THIS POINT .     Pard tons of people who claim to even know JESUS , DO THIS NOW .

That is SCARY FOR THEM.     say it with me , SCARY FOR THEM.      SO I have a solution.

Let us die to the teachings of men we might have learned in churches.  Start over.   PICK UP BIBLE.    READ BIBLE , LOVE BIBLE.  and test anyone who speaks against BIBLE.

 

[inchrist]

21 hours ago, TheMatrixHasU71 said:

 

I rebuke you in the name of Jesus for you are calling the word of God a LIE in favour of man made heresies. Repent or you too will face the lake of fire.

 

 

You rebuke me in the name Christ for asking you to provide actual evidence of any scripture stating Enoch was taken to heaven?

You rebuking me for something neither you or your commentators you've just posted can't provide a single verse Enoch was taken to heaven?

Then somehow I must still be rebuked with a lengthy bit of insults that you have truth even though what you have is conjecture?

It wasn't Moses who you claimed was raised from the dead nor Enoch or Elijah who receiving the promise of eternal life. It is CHRIST!!!!

1 Cor 1: 15

And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead

Firstborn amongst the dead. 

All children of God in by-gone ages who "died in faith" includes enoch

Hebrews 11:13King James Version (KJV)

¹³ These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

 But some of Abraham's oldest ancestors did call upon the name of the Lord

And a lot of them didn't and were pagan worshippers. Can you prpvide me evidemce then which ones he was buried with?

To actually strain scriptures Altogether, Abraham lived a hundred and seventy-five years. Then Abraham breathed his last and died at a good old age, an old man and full of years; and he was gathered to his people (Genesis 25: 7-8).

 

Where do you get immortal soul from this verse?.....

Gather3d to his people is someone who was BURIED with his people.No where does one get a hint of immortal soul in verse.

You rebuke me on imaginations and conjectures.

 

 

 immersed in your own false teachings

I'm immersed in my own false teachings? And what would that be the doctrine of the resurrection?

I find it scandalous I even have to protect this doctrine in the first place....replacing resurrected themed verses with the doctrine of immortality.

Let me tell you what is a lie.

You will not certainly die," the serpent said to the woman

Any doctrine that argues from silence like Enoch going to heaven or immortal soul is bound  to be found false because you are perpetuating the same satanic lie you surely won't die....of cause not because we have immortal souls 

 

 

If the soul of the wicked

All I've gotten is opinions....SHOW ME anywhere in scripture the wicked receive eternal life?

the is a gift ONLY reserved for the righteous.

Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. (Mt 25:46)

Punish-ment not punish-ING

ETERNAL LIFE FOR THE RIGHTOUS

 

[inchrist]

On 24/01/2018 at 10:42 AM, Marilyn C said:

Hi inchrist,

Long time no chat. So to the point...actually God tell us where Enoch and all the OT saints are.

`By faith Enoch was taken....` you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the General Assembly and church of the first-born who are registered who are registered in heaven, to God the judge of all, TO THE SPIRITS OF JUST MEN MADE PERFECT, to Jesus... ` (Heb. 11: 5 & 12: 22 - 24)

Yes God tells us exactly where Enoch and those other OT saints who are `spirits of just men` (& women) made righteous, they are in heaven awaiting their inheritance of citizenship in the New Jerusalem, as promised. They looked for a city whose builder and Maker is God. We, of course, the Body of Christ have a greater inheritance.

regards, Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn

Been awhile.....You still puzzle me....You don't fit the pretrib type.

Nonetheless

One does not need to be dead to experience this

you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the General Assembly and church of the first-born who are registered who are registered in heaven, to God the judge of all, TO THE SPIRITS OF JUST MEN MADE PERFECT, to Jesus... 

 

Remember 

Hebrews 4:16New King James Version (NKJV)

¹⁶ Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

[TheMatrixHasU71]

17 hours ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

Let us die to the teachings of men we might have learned in churches.  Start over.   PICK UP BIBLE.    READ BIBLE , LOVE BIBLE.  and test anyone who speaks against BIBLE.

But that is what we are trying to do with people like inchrist. But the problem is, so many people are so badly brainwashed by the lies they have been fed, its like people stuck in the Matrix.....they will fight to defend it 

[frienduff thaylorde]

5 hours ago, inchrist said:

You rebuke me in the name Christ for asking you to provide actual evidence of any scripture stating Enoch was taken to heaven?

You rebuking me for something neither you or your commentators you've just posted can't provide a single verse Enoch was taken to heaven?

Then somehow I must still be rebuked with a lengthy bit of insults that you have truth even though what you have is conjecture?

It wasn't Moses who you claimed was raised from the dead nor Enoch or Elijah who receiving the promise of eternal life. It is CHRIST!!!!

1 Cor 1: 15

And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead

Firstborn amongst the dead. 

All children of God in by-gone ages who "died in faith" includes enoch

Hebrews 11:13King James Version (KJV)

¹³ These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

 

 

And a lot of them didn't and were pagan worshippers. Can you prpvide me evidemce then which ones he was buried with?

To actually strain scriptures Altogether, Abraham lived a hundred and seventy-five years. Then Abraham breathed his last and died at a good old age, an old man and full of years; and he was gathered to his people (Genesis 25: 7-8).

 

Where do you get immortal soul from this verse?.....

Gather3d to his people is someone who was BURIED with his people.No where does one get a hint of immortal soul in verse.

You rebuke me on imaginations and conjectures.

 

 

 

I'm immersed in my own false teachings? And what would that be the doctrine of the resurrection?

I find it scandalous I even have to protect this doctrine in the first place....replacing resurrected themed verses with the doctrine of immortality.

Let me tell you what is a lie.

You will not certainly die," the serpent said to the woman

Any doctrine that argues from silence like Enoch going to heaven or immortal soul is bound  to be found false because you are perpetuating the same satanic lie you surely won't die....of cause not because we have immortal souls 

 

 

 

All I've gotten is opinions....SHOW ME anywhere in scripture the wicked receive eternal life?

the is a gift ONLY reserved for the righteous.

Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. (Mt 25:46)

Punish-ment not punish-ING

ETERNAL LIFE FOR THE RIGHTOUS

 

Marvel not at this the time is coming when those n the grave shall HEAR his voice , those who have done good will go unto the resurrection of life

those who have done evil resurrection of damanation.      OH that is REAL

and thus let none fear man that can kill only the body , but after that can do nothing ,  FEAR HE who has power to destroy both body and soul in hellfire.

OH, its real.   the second death is real and for all who reject Christ it awaits, for all who called him lord , yet did not the things which  he said, it awaits.

Time to call on grave people to stand and contend for the true faith , the true gospel and flee the all inclusive gospel of world peace.

[inchrist]

4 hours ago, TheMatrixHasU71 said:

But that is what we are trying to do with people like inchrist. 

Lol.....can someone please just provide actual facts 

[Marilyn C]

9 hours ago, inchrist said:

Hi Marilyn

Been awhile.....You still puzzle me....You don't fit the pretrib type.

Nonetheless

One does not need to be dead to experience this

you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the General Assembly and church of the first-born who are registered who are registered in heaven, to God the judge of all, TO THE SPIRITS OF JUST MEN MADE PERFECT, to Jesus... 

 

Remember 

Hebrews 4:16New King James Version (NKJV)

¹⁶ Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Hi inchrist,

Glad you see I don`t fit the usual pre-trib, for I was taught some important details that are different. That`s why I can nearly bump heads with everyone, (lol).

The `spirits of just men made perfect/righteous,` are the OT saints as explained in Heb. 11.

`...became heir of righteousness which is according to faith..` (Heb. 11: 7)

These `made righteous ones` had faith in God`s promise to take them to a city `whose builder and maker is God.` That is what they are awaiting there in the General Assembly. Notice the other group in the General Assembly - the church of the first-born who are registered in heaven. Two groups there bro - OT saints and the Body of Christ. 

regards, Marilyn.

[inchrist]

4 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said:

.  I have to say that if nothing else, your behavior is consistent and predictable.  Your exegesis of scripture is poor and when met with steadfast opposition, you go off on a different tangent.  An accomplished Apologist would not go in that direction.  You do not answer direct questions directly.  You go off on feints, rabbit trails, or veiled attacks on the poster, but direct answers are rarely given. 

Great...60% reply of charactor assassination on SDA stuff that is completely irrelevant to the topic. And no where close to providing any actual proof

I am NOT SDA; so why do you keep bringing this up? What bearing does this have to the topic? And you want to talk about tangents?

 Hebrews 11:5 which says Enoch did not die was a poisoned NIV translation, you quickly abandoned that line of reasoning when I showed that the KJV was actually no different

Lol you can jump to conclusions.

You want to talk about exegesis???

Lets turn to Gen. 5:22-25 “And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: And Enoch walked with God; and he was not; for God took him

he was not; 

What does that mean?

Scripture interpreting scripture of phraseology

Jer. 31:15, “….A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because  they were not

Did God also rapture Rachel's children?

Job 7:21, “…..for now shall I sleep in the dust; but Thou shalt seek me in the morning, but  I shall not be

Did God rapture Job?

You'll quickly discover the phrase he was not is often used of death in the Old Testament. 

Now let's look at Heb. 11:5,

“By faith Enoch was translated that he should ("should "does not exist in the original text ) not see death; and was not found because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God

see = NT Greek eidon

This word does not imply the mere act of looking, but the actual perception of something.

Perception = awareness of something

Enoch; was not =dead

Enoch died in away that he did not perceive death; God took enoch in a way that Enoch was unaware of his death 

The actual rendering reads as follows

By faith Enoch was taken (died); not perceiving his death.

Should not and did not do NOT exist in the NT Greek

You do realise you can die not perceiving death.....right? Yes? No?

Do not try and school me on exegises when you are completely oblivious to the Greek text and what words actually exist in the Greek text  and a little grasp of the Holy spirits  phraseology.

 The authorship of Hebrews has always been hotly contested and no one knows, to this day, who wrote it.  So where did you get that particular quote

So what? How does that have any bearing  on the damn  point

 THESE ALL, having obtained a good report through faith, RECEIVED NOT THE PROMISE" (verse 39). That includes Enoch.

Enoch did NOT, has not, received the promise of eternal life. Why?

Heb. 11:40: 
God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect

[TheMatrixHasU71]

8 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said:

Why do you state that Paul wrote Hebrews?  The authorship of Hebrews has always been hotly contested and no one knows, to this day, who wrote it.  So where did you get that particular quote?

Granted even today no one is 100% certain of the authorship of Hebrews (which is why it was the last book to be admitted to the canon) but the general consensus is that the style of writing is Paul's