Charismatic movement

[BigJer]

See what I mean? Where are all the posts?

[Guest Bro David™]

See what I mean? Where are all the posts? 

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On their way in ...

[Guest devittjl]

A couple of items (from a former tongues speaker)

1)At all the mentions of tongues people heard the apostles speaking in their own language. not some gibberish. People were saved! (3000 came forward)

2) The gift of tongues was a "sign" gift for the Jew because the demand a sign.

3) Tongues are usually done improperly today as they are only to be done when the is someone to interpret and then only a couple of times per meeting.

Now we are told to pray in the Spirit. What does that mean?

1)The Holy Spirit, that we may pray aright, reveals to us the real value, weight and worth of those things for which we pray

2)The Holy Spirit fills us with delight in God

3)The Holy Spirit keeps our hearts fixed on Jesus Christ as the only Mediator between God and man.

4) the Holy Ghost teaches us to wait on God

Also consider not all speaking in tongues is practiced by Chirstians. It is used my many pagan religions also.

I for one have found more satisfaction in my prayer now that I do not speak in tongues. I allow the Holy Spirit to guide my thoughts, tachingme as I pray.

Edited April 29, 2005 by devittjl

[BigJer]

A couple of items (from a former tongues speaker)

1)At all the mentions of tongues people heard the apostles speaking in their own language. not some gibberish. People were saved! (3000 came forward)

2) The gift of tongues was a "sign" gift for the Jew because the demand a sign.

3) Tongues are usually done improperly today as they are only to be done when the is someone to interpret and then only a couple of times per meeting.

Now we are told to pray in the Spirit. What does that mean?

1)The Holy Spirit, that we may pray aright, reveals to us the real value, weight and worth of those things for which we pray

2)The Holy Spirit fills us with delight in God

3)The Holy Spirit keeps our hearts fixed on Jesus Christ as the only Mediator between God and man.

4) the Holy Ghost teaches us to wait on God

Also consider not all speaking in tongues is practiced by Chirstians. It is used my many pagan religions also.

I for one have found more satisfaction in my prayer now that I do not speak in tongues. I allow the Holy Spirit to guide my thoughts, tachingme as I pray.

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Thanks for your input. You certainly are on target with your teaching.

[nebula]

This is why I've backed out of this debate.

I feel like you all despise my gift, dictate how I should and should not use it, make me feel like I'm sinning for using it, . . . .

[Gerioke]

This is why I've backed out of this debate.

I feel like you all despise my gift, dictate how I should and should not use it, make me feel like I'm sinning for using it, . . . .

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I'm with you Nebula. I personally have not spoken in tongues but my wife does frequently. It's her prayer language. She gives the Spirit freedom to communicate through her. I don't know what she says but I believe God does. How human to try and enforce rules on the Holy Spirit.

[BigJer]

I have nothing against the gift of tongues. When God gives a gift, it is a wonderful thing. When God gives a gift, it is to accomplish His will, which is super!

I do have something against the unbiblical use of any gift. I do have something against unbiblical teaching. Far too many people want to exalt their experience over biblical teaching. I have something against that.

2 Tim 3:16-17 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

I do not feel sorry if someone is misusing a gift and they feel like I am dictating to them how they should be using their gift. In fact, I feel like I have made some progress. It isn't me that is doing the dictating, it is God's Word.

I Cor 12:31(The verse just before the love chapter) But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.

There is a more excellent way than the pursuit of a gift from God. It is detailed in Chapter 13. In summary, Chapter 13 means that who you are (the fruit of the Spirit) is more excellent than the pursuit of God's gifts. The way of character, typified by the characteristic of love.

I Cor 14:1 Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

Paul goes on to deal with how prophecy is greater than the use of tongues at church and why we should pursue this greater gift. If you are looking for a gift, why not a gift of teaching? Why not a gift of prophecy? That way, others are editified too. It is OK to desire spiritual gifts, but there is a right way to use each gift. Romans 12 tells us this:

6Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; 7or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; 8he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.

[nebula]

Ger -

I appreciate your desire for Biblical accuracy.

However, when I read your words, I feel like listening to someone who has never put on a pair of skis telling me how my skiing is being done incorrecty.

Manual or not, until you've experienced skiing down a mountain, felt the speed, worked the muscles, actually discovered how many muscles of the body it took to keep balance and ski control, traversed the slopes, avoided other skiers, etc., etc., etc. - how can you interpret the manual into the experience?

There is a more excellent way than the pursuit of a gift from God. It is detailed in Chapter 13. In summary, Chapter 13 means that who you are (the fruit of the Spirit) is more excellent than the pursuit of God's gifts. The way of character, typified by the characteristic of love.

I Cor 14:1 Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

Paul goes on to deal with how prophecy is greater than the use of tongues at church and why we should pursue this greater gift. If you are looking for a gift, why not a gift of teaching? Why not a gift of prophecy? That way, others are editified too. It is OK to desire spiritual gifts, but there is a right way to use each gift.

What makes you think we don't desire and look for the gifts of teaching and prophecy?

Look, when I'm talking to a group of Charasmatics, I'd be the first to encourage them to seek out the fruit of the Spirit.

When I hear non-Charasmatics, though, make these proclomations, what comes across is, "Keep your mouth shut!"

[BigJer]

nebula,

I am glad you wrote those words, because you see, when I see your skiing illustration, I feel like the charasmatics think that they are superior to others because they have experienced something that we all should have. You are saying to me, "you don't know what you are talking about, so stop talking about it."

I have been filled with the Spirit. I know how He gifted me. It wasn't in tongues. It was in teaching.

[nebula]

Ger -

I'm a teacher, too, you know?

I appologize is I made you feel less than valued for your gift of teaching.

Maybe I can express my feelings this way.

When I talk about, let's say, missionary work from the standpoint of what the Bible says, I acknowledge that the person who has spent their life actually involved in missionary work truly knows more about the matter than I ever can with all my reading and studying.

Sure, I might know the principles and precepts, and I might offer little insights I studied that this person may not have considered before - who knows?

Yet I know full well that my knowledge is book knowledge while their knowledge is passed on to their hands and feet.

You know, do you not that there is a difference between head knowledge and heart knowledge, correct?

It's like a problem that occured in the military, where these book-learned lieutenants would jump into a battlefield for the firsttime and start taking over because they have the rank and they know "what the book says." Meanwhile, the sargeant know the battlefield, know this particular battle, experienced how the enemy works, learned through sweat and toil.

Ger, I wouldn't want to discredit your teaching any more than I would want anyone to discredit mine.

Yet, I am aware that someone who has lived out what I have studied understands the issue in ways that I can't.

It's like when I took my education classes. I learned all these neat things about how to make a better classroom. When I actually got to intern at the high school and talked with the teachers about these things, I discovered that many of these neat ideas required a lot of time to implement and carry through, time that does not exist within the school year.

I also discovered that what I learned in the education classes did not prepare me for the things I experienced in the classroom myself.

You see, there is a value to experience and experiencial knowledge. It's where the rubber meets the road.

What I'm saying, Ger, is the teaching you give would have more meaning if you were able to spend some time in the trenches rather than - what's the expression - a "chairside quarterback"?

With what you speak, I feel like you haven't been in the trenches.

I don't mean to say, "I'm better than you."

What I mean to say is, "Do you know what it is like in this trench?" Have you ever had the chance to apply and test your knowledge? Have you ever taken your teaching and gotten your feet dirty with it? Or is your teaching more akin to a commentary from a sportscaster who never played the game?

It's not to say your teaching means nothing.

It just means I feel like you are tearing us apart without knowing what it is like to have this gift.

It hurts me so much when I hear others criticising my praying with my gift of tongues, which is how most of us end up using it. I wish I could convey with words what a blessing this gift has been to me and what awesome times I have had with the Lord just praying with my gift of tongues. It didn't matter to me that I didn't know the words; for I knew my spirit was letting out what was inside. (Yes, I do pray in English, too, and have had awesome times with that as well - just for clarification.)

Please Ger, I know charasmatics have made mistakes, and I know that in our wanting everyone else to experience this wonderful gift we have received (for really, it is wonderful! ) that we've gotten mixed priorities.

I just ask that in pointing out the failures that you not make us feel as if the gift is of no value.

Please?????