Catholic Idolatry

[KiwiChristian]

On 4/14/2018 at 7:37 PM, Cobalt1959 said:

You pulled up a 2 month-old post that wasn't even addressing you.

brakelite is a self-confessed Seventh Day Adventist.   It is not like that is a secret.  And since you do nothing but start threads tearing down one denomination or the other, why is pointing out that SDA's preach a works-based salvation plan such an issue with you?  All you do is point out what is wrong with denomination after denomination, and yet give no edification as to what is actually right.  You've got a ways to go yet before you can run around the board applying the "judging much" statement to people.

Oh, it's not an issue for me at all my friend except that it is completely off-topic.

 

[KiwiChristian]

On 4/14/2018 at 1:22 AM, Mishael said:

So you shall not make an image in order to bow down to them. But, for what purpose? We have already seen that bowing was context sensitive, and we know that the Israelites had many images in their temple. It specifically says that you shall not bow down in order to serve them, that is, over and above God. It is because this would take the place of God that God indicates that He is a jealous God who will not have other gods before Him, as He clearly states in the first commandment. 

Sigh. Another person who may not READ the Bible.

 

bowing down to them is a SEPARATE commandment. I trust the Bible. It says dont make unto thee any image of anything that is in heaven or on the earth.

 

I see NO difficulty in understanding this.

Could you please quote the verse from your translation of choice?

 

 

 

[Guest shiloh357]

On ‎4‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 11:33 AM, Mishael said:

If Mary was not sinless she would not have been chosen to bear Jesus Christ into the world. Here, God Himself, speaking through the angel Gabriel, is using the words "Full of Grace" to address Mary. Obviously, anything full of grace can't have any sin.

Mary was not sinless.  For the immaculate conception of Mary to be true, it would require an endless regression of immaculate conceptions down through history. 

Secondly, the angel did not say she was "full of grace."  The correct phrase is "highly favored."   The only sinless person to ever live on earth was Jesus, period. 

[Guest shiloh357]

On ‎4‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 11:25 AM, Mishael said:

Lol where in the Bible? The Hail Mary prayer is even in the Bible. Biblical facts, you can't even show me where the Bible claims to be the Sole authority and your telling me Biblical facts? Yeah it is all in the Bible which is why there are 40000 Protestant sects who are all at each other's throats.

No, there are not 40,000 protestant sects/denominations.  That is just another lie the RCC puts out.  Actually the number the RCC puts out is 33,000.  Again, totally false.  That is based on an erroneous handling of statistics from the World Encyclopedia. 

And it makes no sense to say that sola scriptura is the source of protestant denominations (regardless of how many there are).   That has nothing to do with it. That is a total error in logic. 

Sola Scripture simply means that we view the Bible as the sole source of our theology and practice.   It doesn't mean that we all interpret the Bible the same. I know Pentecostals who interpret the Bible differently than I do.  They still view the Bible as the sole source of Christian faith and practice, albeit from the vantage point of their interpretation.   Same with Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, Reformed, etc.   We may differ on how we view the Bible, but we still view the Bible as our final authority.

If you're going to bring up sola scriptura, it would behoove you to actually understand the doctrine you're trying to find fault with.

 

[enoob57]

On ‎4‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 8:18 AM, Mishael said:

I'm not a Catholic so the Ten Commandments are their problem. The Incarnation is a game-changer. Christ made visible the invisible God, and thus it is allowed that images of Him be depicted. Icons depict real people. The second commandment protects us from creating fantastical creatures that replace the true God. Icons depict real people and events that draw us to the true God. Worship and veneration are not the same. Worshiping an idol is the equivalent of replacing God with a created thing (or ideology or passion). Venerating an icon is an act of respect and love that glorifies the Creator (sort of like saluting to a soldier is an act of respect and honor that shows your loyalty to your country). God instructed Moses to create images. Just in case anyone thought God’s commandment to Moses excluded all visual images of anything as idols, check out Exodus 36:35-37:9 where, per the instructions of God, Moses has images of cherubim embroidered into the curtains of the tabernacle and statues of the same cast for the Ark of the Covenant.

I believe if you ever witnessed crawling on their knees bleeding and kissing the Icons that is worship of the created thing... there 'IS' only One Being that deserves this activity

Heb 9:11-14

11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
KJV

The key to the error is noted in the phrase 'not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building'... it was the way of the father of our faith 'Abraham'

 

Heb 11:8-10
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
KJV

You see the heart that is so embedded in the first creation cannot see the purpose and eternal plan of God for they are disobedient to God
1 John 2:15-17
15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
KJV

The true s/Spiritual leading of God is to a New Heaven and New Earth and not this one that passes away and this passage was purchased for us through Jesus' Own body...

Heb 8:2
2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
KJV

A reliance through faith alone in Christ alone taking us to a place where sin has never been nor considered... there is still much of His Word to fulfill: the rapture of the Church, the great tribulation, the millennial kingdom, final battle of evil verses good, great white throne of judgment, the total removal of first created state by fire... The Eternal State of New Heaven and New Earth in a City called the New Jerusalem not built with mans hands.

[Ash Tree]

3 hours ago, KiwiChristian said:

God DID specifically command CERTAIN statues to be made. Were they worshipped? No, were they bowed down to? No. Were the cerebrum on the ark of the covenant bowed down to or worshipped? No. Moses' brass snake was to demonstrate Gods healing power, so the people would know that their healing was from God and not just a coincidence, as you well know. Show me where God SPECIFICALLY commands us to make images of Mary and the pope and/or to bow to them? The Bible says not to make unto thee any images. If a person makes a statue or image of mary, angels, etc. then God has NOT commanded them to do that, so it is a sin.

So merely making images of things is a sin? That's rather harsh. That's what the Muslims demand. Or can you only make an image if God commands it. If that's the case then we should tear down a bunch of statues around the world. There are a few statues of Greek gods and goddesses in Greece. Heck, we should tear down the Lincoln Memorial if this is the case. I'm pretty sure the maker of that image didn't get an inspiration from God.

Or is it only Catholic saints and Mary that can't be represented? But St. Augustine is honored as a wise man by many Protestants as well as Catholics. Is making an image of him a sin? I'm confused.

[By the way, I like your quotes at the bottom]

[Ash Tree]

But making a statue of Mary isn't a sin anymore than making a statue of Thomas Jefferson is a sin. Both were people who existed. Mary was obviously holier than good ol' TJ though. It's when an image is adored as god that it becomes an idol (which, by the way, is not what those folks in the pictures are doing). 

Those folks in the pictures are not worshiping Mary. That would be creepy. They are honoring her just like you would honor a picture of your deceased mother or kiss her picture. No difference.

Edited April 15, 2018 by Ash Tree

[1to3]

15 minutes ago, Ash Tree said:

But making a statue of Mary isn't a sin anymore than making a statue of Thomas Jefferson is a sin. Both were people who existed. Mary was obviously holier than good ol' TJ though. It's when an image is adored as god that it becomes an idol (which, by the way, is not what those folks in the pictures are doing). 

Those folks in the pictures are not worshiping Mary. That would be creepy. They are honoring her just like you would honor a picture of your deceased mother or kiss her picture. No difference.

Good day Ash Tree, my question to you after reading your response is , do you belong to the RCC?

Edited April 15, 2018 by 1to3

[Ash Tree]

6 minutes ago, 1to3 said:

Good day Ash Tree, my question to you after reading your response is , do you belong to the RCC?

I do indeed.

[Mishael]

On 4/15/2018 at 1:21 PM, shiloh357 said:

No, there are not 40,000 protestant sects/denominations.  That is just another lie the RCC puts out.  Actually the number the RCC puts out is 33,000.  Again, totally false.  That is based on an erroneous handling of statistics from the World Encyclopedia. 

And it makes no sense to say that sola scriptura is the source of protestant denominations (regardless of how many there are).   That has nothing to do with it. That is a total error in logic. 

Sola Scripture simply means that we view the Bible as the sole source of our theology and practice.   It doesn't mean that we all interpret the Bible the same. I know Pentecostals who interpret the Bible differently than I do.  They still view the Bible as the sole source of Christian faith and practice, albeit from the vantage point of their interpretation.   Same with Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, Reformed, etc.   We may differ on how we view the Bible, but we still view the Bible as our final authority.

If you're going to bring up sola scriptura, it would behoove you to actually understand the doctrine you're trying to find fault with.

 

How does 33,000 denominations make it any better the word Sola Scriptura was never used in history by Christians up until the Protestant reformation neither does the Bible claim to be the sole authority anywhere.