Why Christians Don’t (and Won’t) Support Gun Control

[one.opinion]

28 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

Secondly,  this kid was able to actually walk across school grounds while carrying an AR-15 and be unnoticed is problematic.  He was able to get into the school unnoticed with an AR-15.   There was a failure of the school to report him to the authorities for carrying weapons into school and threatening other students some time back.   His home was visited by the police 39 times for violence, such as assaulting his mother.   The FBI was tipped off about him at least twice.    So, this is a real failure of the school officials and law enforcement.

If the school officials had reported him bringing weapons on campus illegally, that would likely have prevented him from passing the background check to buy an AR-15.  He should have been taken into custody and questioned and examined for mental illness.   

I mean, the problem isn't that we have AR-15's.   The problem is a failure to adequately deal with a crazy, deranged person who was demonstrably dangerous and was known to the school, to the police and FBI.

Agreed, it doesn't matter what kind of gun he had if he could just walk right in unopposed and start shooting. In addition to what you've already mentioned, I saw a report just this evening that there was an armed guard OUTSIDE of the school that never went in or engaged the shooter. Officials say he was outside for FOUR MINUTES while the shooter was killing innocents. That's not the fault of the gunmaker or the gun, that's the fault of ineffective means of protection.

[Guest shiloh357]

22 minutes ago, one.opinion said:

Agreed, it doesn't matter what kind of gun he had if he could just walk right in unopposed and start shooting. In addition to what you've already mentioned, I saw a report just this evening that there was an armed guard OUTSIDE of the school that never went in or engaged the shooter. Officials say he was outside for FOUR MINUTES while the shooter was killing innocents. That's not the fault of the gunmaker or the gun, that's the fault of ineffective means of protection.

They need someone experienced in combat, a retired soldier or Marine, someone who has been shot at before and knows how to engage an enemy.   I suspect the guy they had was probably trained for when the bullets are not flying in both directions.   He was not ready for this and fell down on the job.  There are retired Army Rangers and police who are volunteering in FL to stand guard for them at that school.

[Guest shiloh357]

8 minutes ago, Davida said:

The thing is the authorities were contacted 39 times and they did nothing to prevent this from happening or to intervene - it is so frustrating. 

Yes it is.  It's why WE have to be prepared to defend ourselves.   The police and other authorities are less than useless.

[Guest shiloh357]

19 minutes ago, Davida said:

It would be a great thing, Win Win --and I'm sure they would LOVE to do it!

Yes that would be an ideal situation and they are volunteering so they are not on the taxpayer dime.  But since it is a good, commonsense idea, it will rejected in favor of banning stuff.

[one.opinion]

1 hour ago, Davida said:

I also like President Trump's idea for Teachers & school officials to be armed. Taken from Breitbart, I think below is a great idea.

"Trump repeated his call for teachers and school officials who are experienced with firearms to have access to a gun in schools.

He proposed giving “bonuses” to teachers who receive gun training."

Think it through...

1. A vast majority of teachers are well-intentioned, but how many stories have we seen with teachers doing stupid stuff like inappropriate behavior with students?

2. The teacher would have to be carrying at all times. If you were back in high school, would you want a teacher that had a loaded gun at their hip at all times?

3. If a professional hired for the purpose of keeping the school safe froze for over 4 minutes, what makes you think a professional teacher will somehow be better prepared?

4. It is a tremendous amount of responsibility put onto a teacher to think that they and their firearm are the last resort for the lives of the students put into their trust. I would find it highly unlikely that any but a tiny fraction of teachers would be willing to do this.

5. What if a teacher missed a target and hit a bystander?

6. What if a teacher actually hit a target and is faced with the burden of having taken a human life?

If pressed, I could probably come up with quite a few other good reasons why this is a bad idea. School surveillance must be improved. As sad is this may be, metal detectors should be strongly considered. I liked Shiloh's idea of having ex-military or police -- those experienced in handling those situations that most of us only have nightmares about -- be given the responsibility of helping to keep our children safe. There are a lot of good ideas out there, but arming teachers isn't one of them.

[Guest shiloh357]

6 hours ago, one.opinion said:

Think it through...

1. A vast majority of teachers are well-intentioned, but how many stories have we seen with teachers doing stupid stuff like inappropriate behavior with students?

 

For every one story like that, we have thousands of teachers who would never dream of such a thing. 

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2. The teacher would have to be carrying at all times. If you were back in high school, would you want a teacher that had a loaded gun at their hip at all times?

Why not?  If I knew that the teacher was keeping me safe, I don't see the problem.

 

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3. If a professional hired for the purpose of keeping the school safe froze for over 4 minutes, what makes you think a professional teacher will somehow be better prepared?

I have seen the stories about  teachers from school shootings talk about their experiences, and stories about some of them giving their lives intentionally  trying to shield their students.   They didn't freeze.   There is something like parental instinct that kicks in and they are willing to give their lives.  They don't run and try to save their own lives.  Those students are almost like their own children.   And they genuinely care about them.    I don't think they will freeze.   

It is precisely because this guy froze and failed and because law enforcement on seemingly every level failed in their duties, that we need more than one option available.  There needs to be layers of security with the teachers being last line of defense if law enforcement isn't going to do their job. 

 

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4. It is a tremendous amount of responsibility put onto a teacher to think that they and their firearm are the last resort for the lives of the students put into their trust. I would find it highly unlikely that any but a tiny fraction of teachers would be willing to do this.

In a school shooting situation that teacher and their fire arm may be the ONLY resort.   And you don't need every teacher to carry.   The point is that these mass killers look for soft, unarmed targets.    We make schools "gun free zones"  and that says, "target rich environment"  to mass shooters who want to inflict as much damage as possible the shortest period of time.  

If these shooters realize that there are armed people in the building, be they teachers and/or armed guards  they will more than likely look elsewhere.   

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5. What if a teacher missed a target and hit a bystander?

Most self-defense situations involving fire arms, like home defense, occur within a matter of 10 feet or less.  With constant training and practice, you learn to draw and fire pretty fast and pretty accurate.   

 

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6. What if a teacher actually hit a target and is faced with the burden of having taken a human life?

That is a reality  that everyone in the military and law enforcement have to deal with.   Taking a life isn't easy and it takes something from you.  The idea though is to prevent these shootings, that armed teachers are a deterrent more often than not.  And teachers would have to go through constant required training to make sure their skills are maintained.   I know teachers willing to go through the training who are already armed in their homes and would shoot an intruder willing to break into their home.

 

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If pressed, I could probably come up with quite a few other good reasons why this is a bad idea. School surveillance must be improved. As sad is this may be, metal detectors should be strongly considered. I liked Shiloh's idea of having ex-military or police -- those experienced in handling those situations that most of us only have nightmares about -- be given the responsibility of helping to keep our children safe. There are a lot of good ideas out there, but arming teachers isn't one of them.

I think having the armed guards wo are retired combat experienced personnel is the best idea, but if you only have one and he is on the north side of the building and the perp is on the south side, it will take him some time to get there and if there is chaos in the halls, he will be slowed down by all of the students running every which way in the halls.   You gotta have a first responder or two, near by.

[Heleadethme]

Think we have to realize there is coming a point where nobody will be able to do much at all about the things that are happening, it's happening because of sin and rejecting Christ and the gospel.  Kingdoms of man are like little ant colonies trying to fight an elephant.........it is the LORD who is fighting against our nations now.  The very best, most excellent advice we can give is to agree with the Adversary along the way lest he turn us over to the Judge and the Judge, well, judge us.  The birth pangs are beginning..........when we see these things begin to happen, Jesus said look UP because our redemption is drawing nigh.  As it was in the days of Noah so shall it be at the coming of the Son of Man..........so we need to obey the Lord, not fight against Him, and do as Noah did.

[one.opinion]

4 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

9 hours ago, one.opinion said:

Think it through...

1. A vast majority of teachers are well-intentioned, but how many stories have we seen with teachers doing stupid stuff like inappropriate behavior with students?

 

For every one story like that, we have thousands of teachers who would never dream of such a thing. 

I completely agree. I have a tremendous amount of respect for teachers. I have three generations of teachers in my immediate family and both of my daughters are studying education. Most teachers do what they do because they were designed that way (whether the acknowledge the Designer or not!). But there is an element of teachers that are in the classroom because they graduated from college, but were unable to get a job in their field, and a school was desperate to hire a warm body. 99.9% of teachers would never dream of having an inappropriate relationship with a student, and yet, this kind of thing happens on a pretty regular basis.

 

5 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

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3. If a professional hired for the purpose of keeping the school safe froze for over 4 minutes, what makes you think a professional teacher will somehow be better prepared?

I have seen the stories about  teachers from school shootings talk about their experiences, and stories about some of them giving their lives intentionally  trying to shield their students.   They didn't freeze.   There is something like parental instinct that kicks in and they are willing to give their lives.  They don't run and try to save their own lives.  Those students are almost like their own children.   And they genuinely care about them.    I don't think they will freeze.

I think you have a good argument here, but it is just impossible to say unless/until someone is forced into the situation. There was a beloved teacher/coach in my area that didn't know how to swim, but was doing his best to save people during the worst of Hurricane Harvey and got swept away and drowned. I would say that teachers like this far exceed the "bad apples", but you know how the axiom goes...

I heard an interview just this morning by an 8th grade science teacher that is also the VP for the National Education Association (NEA). She clearly showed her bias during the interview, but said that teachers and students she heard from were strongly against teachers being armed. She reluctantly admitted that in communities that support teachers carrying, they should be able to if it is entirely voluntary. She was very worried about teachers feeling pressured to carry.

https://www.npr.org/2018/02/23/588198741/nea-offical-reacts-to-trumps-idea-of-arming-teachers

[Littlelambseativy]

On 2/19/2018 at 11:02 AM, shiloh357 said:

What does any of this have to do with gun control.    I you want to continue to sit in judgement and look down your self-righteous snoot at others, then start another thread about.   

This is about gun control and not about your opinions about other Christians.  Either address the topic of the OP, leave the thread or a mod can come and deal with it.   

What is being said is that children no longer have the Lord’s Prayer said in schools, the 10 commandments mean nothing, laws are liberal and the way the leadership of the country is going is to appeal to the strident liberals and ignore all that is based on the laws of God. Liberalism is our problem... in Canada you cannot defend your own home against an intruder bent on harming you. If you do harm someone breaking into your home you are tried not the intruder. Our country is in a mess thanks to our current  leaders.

Guns in the hands of the mentally stable teachers would have protected the majority of students. But when police run from harm and leave innocent children defenseless you have what happened in Florida.

a good article on the mass killers from Sandyhook on indicated no fathers in the home. We live in a society in NA where marriage is meaningless and easy to dissolve leaving children without parents needed for role models and wonder why bad things happen. Remember Satan has dominion over the earth but not God’s children yet bad things still do happen to God’s children too.

[Guest shiloh357]

14 minutes ago, one.opinion said:

I completely agree. I have a tremendous amount of respect for teachers. I have three generations of teachers in my immediate family and both of my daughters are studying education. Most teachers do what they do because they were designed that way (whether the acknowledge the Designer or not!). But there is an element of teachers that are in the classroom because they graduated from college, but were unable to get a job in their field, and a school was desperate to hire a warm body. 99.9% of teachers would never dream of having an inappropriate relationship with a student, and yet, this kind of thing happens on a pretty regular basis.

Those teachers probably would not want to carry, anyway.

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I think you have a good argument here, but it is just impossible to say unless/until someone is forced into the situation. There was a beloved teacher/coach in my area that didn't know how to swim, but was doing his best to save people during the worst of Hurricane Harvey and got swept away and drowned. I would say that teachers like this far exceed the "bad apples", but you know how the axiom goes...

i don't see the bad apples as those who would care enough about the students to risk their lives in any context, much less in an active shooter scenario.

 

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I heard an interview just this morning by an 8th grade science teacher that is also the VP for the National Education Association (NEA). She clearly showed her bias during the interview, but said that teachers and students she heard from were strongly against teachers being armed. She reluctantly admitted that in communities that support teachers carrying, they should be able to if it is entirely voluntary. She was very worried about teachers feeling pressured to carry.

https://www.npr.org/2018/02/23/588198741/nea-offical-reacts-to-trumps-idea-of-arming-teachers

 

No teachers are going to be pressured into it.  They are only asking for volunteers and I supposed depending on the part of the country you're in there will be schools that have teachers that carry and others that don't.   

But I can tell you this,  if there had been an armed teacher in that school in Florida and that teacher had shot that guy and saved the lives of several students, those parents and students would be pretty thankful to the person who saved their lives and the lives of their kids.  It would be pretty hard to demonize guns if it was a gun carrying teacher or guard that saved lives.

The other option is just to be victims of one more shooter down the road because these liberals are obsessed with getting rid of guns.