Daniel & Revelation Reveal The Antichrist

[Guest yod]

BibleStudent,

Are you referencing Ted Noel's book and/or are you Ted Noel?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Both.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

so you are Ted Noel?

Who is that?

he definitely isn't much of a bible student from what I've read in the last few pages....

It's not worth debating. When someone refuses to understand plain language, they simply are refusing the truth.

[JesusisGod2]

BibleStudent,

Are you referencing Ted Noel's book and/or are you Ted Noel?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Both.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

so you are Ted Noel?

Who is that?

he definitely isn't much of a bible student from what I've read in the last few pages....

It's not worth debating. When someone refuses to understand plain language, they simply are refusing the truth.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He's a typical seventh day theologian

[Guest shiloh357]

BibleStudent,

Are you referencing Ted Noel's book and/or are you Ted Noel?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Both.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

so you are Ted Noel?

Who is that?

he definitely isn't much of a bible student from what I've read in the last few pages....

It's not worth debating. When someone refuses to understand plain language, they simply are refusing the truth.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He's a typical seventh day theologian

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah the website his book is on, supports the Seventh Day Adventist cult. That explains a lot, doesn't it?

[Guest Bro David™]

Replacement theology is nothing but religious bigotry and a blatant prostitution of the Scriptures. It is a grave heresy that must be repudiated. It formed the theological justification for hatred of Jews down through the centuries. Replacement theology is not new. It has its roots in the anti-Semitism of the early Church Fathers. Replacement theology is a cancer in the church. It perpetuates an 1700 year long legacy of hatred and has no place in the heart and minds of those who call themselves Christians

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Amen !

Elohai Olam !

Woohoo

[rollinTHUNDER]

''Fullness of the Gentiles''

In Defense of the Faith

Friday, May 20, 2005

Jack Kinsella - Omega Letter Editor

http://www.omegaletter.com/articles.asp?ArticleID=5396

By every measurable historical standard, the city of Jerusalem should have fallen into oblivion centuries ago. The city was destroyed in AD 70 by the Romans and its founders and traditional inhabitants were killed or fled into exile in foreign lands.

It has no natural wealth. It has no coastline. It sits inconveniently upon a mountain. It overlooks nothing of strategic military value.

It is on no ancient trade route. The King's Highway of David's time ran north and south through modern Jordan. Jerusalem was well off the beaten path -- folks didn't pass through Jerusalem on their way to somewhere else -- Jerusalem was the end of the line.

Like other historical 'end of the line' cities, once its reason to exist was extinguished by the destruction of its native population, so should its history.

The once-great city of Babylon, for example, is little more than a living museum, devoid of influence or even much interest outside scholarly circles.

Over the centuries, it has been fought over by the Assyrians, Babylonians, Egyptians, Greeks, Ptolemies, Seleucids, Romans, Byzantines, Persians, Arabs, Seljuks, Crusaders, Mongols, Mamelukes, by the Turks, the British, Jordan and most recently, by those Jordanians who became 'Palestinians' after Jordan's defeat in the 1967 War.

Jerusalem remains one of the most contested cities on earth to this day. That list doesn't include the approximately two hundred million Islamic fundamentalists or Islamic states like Iran or Saudi Arabia who have conducted a decades-long shadow war to 'liberate' the city from Jewish control.

Despite two thousand years of war aimed at destroying the Jews and seizing their city, in this generation, the Jews again inhabit an undivided Jerusalem.

"And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." (Luke 21:24)

Jesus' sweeping prophecy concerning the future of city of Jerusalem and its inhabitants was fulfilled to the letter throughout history, including its restoration to Jewish hands. Note that its restoration signals the fulfillment of the 'times of the Gentiles'.

The Apostle Paul called himself the 'apostle of the Gentiles' (Romans 11:13) but Paul had formerly been known as Saul of Tarsus, a Pharisee (lawyer) and Jewish religious leader. Paul explains that the Church is a 'graft' from the original tree (Judaism), saying,

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." Romans 11:25)

Here we find the same phraseology that was employed by Jesus concerning the 'times of the Gentiles'. Jesus referred to the times of the Gentiles as being 'fulfilled'. Paul speaks of the 'fulness of the Gentiles'.

Paul says that, following the 'fulness of the Gentiles',

"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." (Romans 11:27)

Paul notes that, during the Church Age, "As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes," but Paul cautions; "but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes."

Then Paul wraps it all together by saying, "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." (Romans 11:29)

This is one of the great mysteries of Scripture. The Jews are enemies of the Gospel for 'our sakes'. What does that mean?

Jesus taught that His mission was to come first to the Jews. When approached by the Samaritan woman begging Him to help her daughter, Jesus told her, "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matthew 15:24)

To the Jews He prophesied, "I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive." (John 5:43)

If the Jews had accepted their Messiah at His First Advent, there would have been no Church Age and the Lord would have set up the Millennial Kingdom right then and there.

Jesus prophesied that because of their rejection of Him, "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate." His prophecy was fulfilled in AD 70 with the destruction of Jerusalem and the beginning of the 'Times of the Gentiles.'

The usurper who comes in his own name and is received as the Messiah comes after the 'fulness of the Gentiles' is come in.

Jeremiah calls it the 'Time of Jacob's Trouble' (Jeremiah 30:7). Jesus calls it the 'Tribulation' (Matthew 24:29). The prophet Daniel outlines the Tribulation's six-fold purpose, from the perspective of Israel;

"(1) to finish the transgression, and (2) to make an end of sins, and (3) to make reconciliation for iniquity, and (4) to bring in everlasting righteousness, and (5) to seal up the vision and prophecy, and (6) to anoint the most Holy." (Daniel 9:24)

Let's connect the dots and see how the Big Picture develops here. Jesus said that the restoration of Jerusalem to Jewish control would signal that the 'fulness of the Gentiles be come in'.

Jesus said of the generation on earth at that time, "This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled." (Luke 21:32)

Paul says that the Jews, as an institution, rejected Jesus so that the Gentiles would have a chance at salvation. He said that God would not return His attention to Israel until 'the fulness of the Gentiles be come in'. The 'fulness of the Gentiles' indicates a finite number -- a 'quota', so to speak -- of Gentiles who will come to know Christ during the Church Age.

Once that quota -- the Church Age 'elect' have been gathered, God returns His attention to the Jews, "And so all Israel shall be saved" -- because "the gifts and calling of God are without repentance."

That Jesus offered salvation first to Israel is confirmed by His own Words as recorded by John.

The 'Time of Jacob's Trouble' is so-called because of its purpose as outlined by Daniel -- the six-fold purpose that culminates with the 'anointment of the most Holy' as Messiah and the beginning of the Millennial Reign from Jerusalem.

Note how clearly the two Dispensations are divided. Until the Crucifixion, God's attention was focused on Israel. Until the 'fulness of the Gentiles be come in' God's attention is focused on the Church.

The Church, as the 'Bride of Christ' serves no role in Daniel's six-point outline for the Tribulation Period. Take another look at Daniel 9:24 before we go on.

The transgression was finished at the Cross. The Blood of Christ takes away all sin. (1st John 1:7) His death and resurrection reconciled the Church to God.

"And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation. To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation." (2nd Corinthians 5:18-19)

To the saved believer reconciled to God by the Blood of Christ, 'everlasting righteousness' is a gift of grace through faith, 'sealing' the vision and prophecy of the Old Covenant and introducing the New Covenant with the Church.

The believer knows that Jesus is ALREADY anointed King of King and Lord of Lords and is awaiting His return at the end of the Church Age.

There is no role for the Church Age during the Time of Jacob's Trouble -- it doesn't begin until after the 'fulness of the Gentiles' is come in. And this is the generation in which Jerusalem was recovered from Gentile control, signaling the approach of the fullness of the Gentiles'.

The Tribulation serves two main purposes; the first is the judgment of God on a Christ-rejecting world. The second is the nation redemption of Israel. By definition, Church-Age believers have NOT rejected Christ, and need no further redemption.

The Bible says that, before the unfolding of the Time of Jacob's Trouble, there will come an ingathering of Church Age believers:

"Because thou hast kept the word of My patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." (Revelation 3:10)

Jerusalem is the signal that this is the generation that will see the 'fulness of the Gentiles be come in'. It was of that generation that Paul promised:

"For this we say unto you BY THE WORD OF THE LORD, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall . . . be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." (1st Thessalonians 4:15,17b)

The time is short. Don't let anybody steal your victory. Jesus is coming soon for His Church, and "THEN shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming." (2nd Thessalonians 2:8)

Get excited! The time is short, the fulness of the Gentiles is at hand; the Lord IS coming soon!

"Wherefore comfort one another with these words." (2nd Thessalonians 4:18)

[Guest yod]

Yeah the website his book is on, supports the Seventh Day Adventist cult.  That explains a lot, doesn't it?

Oh...thanks. That is all I need to know.

This is a bigger waste of time than watching Bo sing on American Idol

[BibleStudent]

Hi Biblestudent,

Please understand that I am not out to gain any "triumph" save that triumph over death that comes through Jesus Christ at the resurrection.

I come to these boards to gain understanding and to fellowship with believers who share in the same joy salvation through the Lord Jesus! Let us lift Him up!!!!!

As far the work you suggest and the pattern you suggest I follow, I have done that and understand how a sentence is structured and I believe that Romans is pretty clear on the issue.

To disagree on an issue is no big deal, however, rudeness is never acceptable.

In Jesus

Kevin

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Allow me to extend a challenge.

Let us together exegete Romans 11. Let us deal with only the Olive tree metaphor and Paul's direct statements around it, i.e. the OT quotes he adduces at the end of it. It should not be necessary to deal with any texts other than the OT source of the OT metaphor, the passage itself (semantic analysis) and the OT quotes at the end.

All of the other arguments have been a case of regurgitating large volumes of scripture without exegesis. No one has bothered to show WHY any of them truly mean what they are supposed to mean since key words have not been defined.

So let us start a new thread in which all other discussants sit on the side. Let us explore Romans 11. When we have finished, all should have a better view of what is actually meant in the passage.

Deal?

In His Service,

Ted

p.s. I applaud the triumph you seek. We all should seek it.

[Guest shiloh357]

Let us together exegete Romans 11. Let us deal with only the Olive tree metaphor and Paul's direct statements around it, i.e. the OT quotes he adduces at the end of it. It should not be necessary to deal with any texts other than the OT source of the OT metaphor, the passage itself (semantic analysis) and the OT quotes at the end.

You just got done saying that we need to look at key words and how they are used in every other part of the Bible, to understand how they are used in Romans 11. Now you are wanting to do the opposite by only using the text of Romans 11. That's a turn around.

All of the other arguments have been a case of regurgitating large volumes of scripture without exegesis.No one has bothered to show WHY any of them truly mean what they are supposed to mean since key words have not been defined.

That is kind of an insult to the intelligence of everyone who reads the Bible... The Bible doesn't really mean what it says. No one heretofore is capable understanding the plain meaning of the text. What you are trying to do is redefine key terms and alter the plain meaning of the text in order to push the replacement lie. For example: You try to force "Israel" to mean "The faithful who follow God's Will," or something like that. You are trying to force that definition on every use of Israel going back all the way to Genesis 12:3 before the word even came into use. You have offered other contrived "definitions" without demonstrating how they fit the word you're defining.

By the way, I have demonstrated exactly why the Scriptures you have provided do not refer to Israel replacing the church, and I did so exegetically. I demonstrated why Ezekiel 36 & 37 is not the Church, I demonstrated why Matt. 5:5, Matt 21:43, 23:13-31, Matt23:38, Luke 12:32, Galatians 3: 28-29 and Hebrews 12:22 do not help your replacement garbage. Your claim that exegesis has not been used is false.

So let us start a new thread in which all other discussants sit on the side. Let us explore Romans 11. When we have finished, all should have a better view of what is actually meant in the passage.

You can do that, but don't expect the rest of us to sit on the side. When you start a thread that will attempt to support replacement theology, you can expect strong resistance on this board. This is a board that supports Israel, that believes in the nation of Israel as a fulfillment of Bible prophecy, and most here, reject replacement theology. This is a Christian board. We will not sit back and allow you to pervert the Scriptures to line up with Seventh Day Adventist teachings

So go for it. Start the Romans 11 thread... See you there!

[BibleStudent]

I will disregard your mis-statements above since you have agreed to tackle Romans 11 by itself.

I will begin that thread post-haste.

Ted