Oy Vey?

[ScottA]

Just as I thought:

"Although this expression has come to mean to most people something along the lines of WOW this/this life/my life ----s (with the implication of weariness at that fact), the passage of scripture from which the expression is drawn has rich theological content both for Jews and Christians and echoes a much more severe statement than they likely intend.

This expression finds its origins in the book of Isaiah chapter 6 in what is commonly referred to as the calling of Isaiah. Isaiah, who has been a prophet of God, has his eyes opened to the throne room of God. Overawed by the majesty and holiness of God and repulsed by his own sin He has a nervous breakdown and pronounces an oracular curse on himself (essentially calling down God's just punishment on himself). Then he is cleansed of his sin by having a red hot coal pressed to his lips by an angel (who ever said that the Bible is boring?)

The King James version of the Bible renders it "Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, The LORD of hosts." As a prophet of God it was a part of Isaiah's job to pronounce God's blessings and curses on Israel, making them aware of how God felt on any given subject and what was going to happen good or bad as a result. Isaiah was in fact pronouncing God's punishment on himself for the sins of his lips. I like the expression "undone" because I feel it captures most dramatically what it feels like to experience the reality of one's own sinfulness in the presence of a perfect and perfectly holy God.

So when someone casually uses the expression "oy vey" they are actually echoing a self curse and laying claim on the Wrath of God."

-From: https://everything2.com/title/Oy+vey 

[Steve_S]

1 hour ago, ScottA said:

Just as I thought:

"Although this expression has come to mean to most people something along the lines of WOW this/this life/my life ----s (with the implication of weariness at that fact), the passage of scripture from which the expression is drawn has rich theological content both for Jews and Christians and echoes a much more severe statement than they likely intend.

This expression finds its origins in the book of Isaiah chapter 6 in what is commonly referred to as the calling of Isaiah. Isaiah, who has been a prophet of God, has his eyes opened to the throne room of God. Overawed by the majesty and holiness of God and repulsed by his own sin He has a nervous breakdown and pronounces an oracular curse on himself (essentially calling down God's just punishment on himself). Then he is cleansed of his sin by having a red hot coal pressed to his lips by an angel (who ever said that the Bible is boring?)

The King James version of the Bible renders it "Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, The LORD of hosts." As a prophet of God it was a part of Isaiah's job to pronounce God's blessings and curses on Israel, making them aware of how God felt on any given subject and what was going to happen good or bad as a result. Isaiah was in fact pronouncing God's punishment on himself for the sins of his lips. I like the expression "undone" because I feel it captures most dramatically what it feels like to experience the reality of one's own sinfulness in the presence of a perfect and perfectly holy God.

So when someone casually uses the expression "oy vey" they are actually echoing a self curse and laying claim on the Wrath of God."

-From: https://everything2.com/title/Oy+vey 

Uh, this is a pretty significant stretch. What are the qualifications of the person who made this claim? This comes from what looks to be a 16 year old post and i see no credentials from the author explaining who he is, what he believes, or why he thinks this?

[Guest Butero]

All oy vey means is dismay or grief, frustration.  Nobody is pronouncing a self curse when they use the term.  

[ScottA]

7 hours ago, Steve_S said:

Uh, this is a pretty significant stretch. What are the qualifications of the person who made this claim? This comes from what looks to be a 16 year old post and i see no credentials from the author explaining who he is, what he believes, or why he thinks this?

I am not sure it even matters - it is what it is, honest if nothing else. The same could be said of "Oh gosh", "Good grief", or even "Merry Christmas." Which for me, has indeed changed in meaning over the years socially to mean something entirely different. Even Merry Christ might translate in old world terms to mean something like "Happy Pagan Holiday." But it is now captured territory and was never meant to be anything else except salutations during the time of celebrating the birth of Christ.

But the reason I posted this thread, is it has become a way of posting a personal snide remark of disapproval that is not considered personal simply because it is pre approved. So, where it may seem to be a thumbs down, which would be fine - certainly not everyone needs to approve or agree with comments, and some should even be shunned. Yet it is more than that, but conveniently does not qualify to be personal or name calling.

I only do so, because these are the games people play in the shadows. Am I wrong to point it out?

[ScottA]

4 hours ago, Sojourner414 said:

So, before you go back on ignore (after seeing Steve_S quote you), I personally think you're just mad because folks "oy vey" your posts and you found an excuse to try to remove any criticism by claiming it is "a self- curse". In other words: it appears that you want everyone to agree with you and never show any displeasure or disagreement at your opinions.

And I say to that: OY VEY.

-Sojo414 out (of this topic)

No, just bring the truth of what is in the hearts of some to light.

[Steve_S]

1 hour ago, ScottA said:

I am not sure it even matters - it is what it is, honest if nothing else. The same could be said of "Oh gosh", "Good grief", or even "Merry Christmas." Which for me, has indeed changed in meaning over the years socially to mean something entirely different. Even Merry Christ might translate in old world terms to mean something like "Happy Pagan Holiday." But it is now captured territory and was never meant to be anything else except salutations during the time of celebrating the birth of Christ.

But the reason I posted this thread, is it has become a way of posting a personal snide remark of disapproval that is not considered personal simply because it is pre approved. So, where it may seem to be a thumbs down, which would be fine - certainly not everyone needs to approve or agree with comments, and some should even be shunned. Yet it is more than that, but conveniently does not qualify to be personal or name calling.

I only do so, because these are the games people play in the shadows. Am I wrong to point it out?

Well, whether or not you are wrong to point it out is not a judgment I care to make, for starters. I will say, though, that the guy you quoted is making claims of a literal curse being called down from God by simply uttering the words "oy vey" which can mean a range of things depending on the person saying it and the context in which they are saying it. Context in conversation and with words matters a whole lot and the meanings behind words matter.

For instance, if someone is doing very well in a competition of some sort, and another person remarks about them "john's on fire." Do we take the literal meaning of the word fire there? Is it being suggested that the person is literally on fire? Inversely, if a group of firefighters is in a house battling a fire, and one remarks to another "john's on fire"... do you think anyone in the room would think it's at all possible that the person making that remark is suggesting that ol' john is having himself a particularly good day on the golf course? So, in language, context is incredibly important.

But, really, the actual translation from the masoretic text (also the septuagint) simply means "woe is me." I'm not sure how that qualifies as calling down a curse. The definition of "woe" is great sorrow or distress. As such, woe is me would basically mean "I am in great sorrow and distress" if you really want to look at it in any sort of literal context.

Also, the logic there of calling it a curse is questionable, insofar as he asked for a curse, yet received a blessing:

Isa 6:7  And he touched my mouth with it, and said: "Behold, this has touched your lips; Your iniquity is taken away, And your sin purged."

In short, Isaiah cried out to God in distress and God responded. He used an expression of exasperation in doing so. Someone happening to use the same expression of exasperation about something else equaling "calling down a curse" does not, at all, seem biblical. In fact, based on how the guy worded it in his short thesis, it seems almost superstitious.

Edited February 26, 2018 by Steve_S
Grammar.

[ScottA]

1 hour ago, Steve_S said:

Well, whether or not you are wrong to point it out is not a judgment I care to make, for starters. I will say, though, that the guy you quoted is making claims of a literal curse being called down from God by simply uttering the words "oy vey" which can mean a range of things depending on the person saying it and the context in which they are saying it. Context in conversation and with words matters a whole lot and the meanings behind words matter.

For instance, if someone is doing very well in a competition of some sort, and another person remarks about them "john's on fire." Do we take the literal meaning of the word fire there? Is it being suggested that the person is literally on fire? Inversely, if a group of firefighters is in a house battling a fire, and one remarks to another "john's on fire"... do you think anyone in the room would think it's at all possible that the person making that remark is suggesting that ol' john is having himself a particularly good day on the golf course? So, in language, context is incredibly important.

But, really, the actual translation from the masoretic text (also the septuagint) simply means "woe is me." I'm not sure how that qualifies as calling down a curse. The definition of "woe" is great sorrow or distress. As such, woe is me would basically mean "I am in great sorrow and distress" if you really want to look at it in any sort of literal context.

Also, the logic there of calling it a curse is questionable, insofar as he asked for a curse, yet received a blessing:

Isa 6:7  And he touched my mouth with it, and said: "Behold, this has touched your lips; Your iniquity is taken away, And your sin purged."

In short, Isaiah cried out to God in distress and God responded. He used an expression of exasperation in doing so. Someone happening to use the same expression of exasperation about something else equaling "calling down a curse" does not, at all, seem biblical. In fact, based on how the guy worded it in his short thesis, it seems almost superstitious.

Yes, and yet look at the line of those who have weighted in in spite. My point exactly.

[Steve_S]

Just now, ScottA said:

Yes, and yet look at the line of those who have weighted in in spite. My point exactly.

I don't what your point is at this point, but, I'm open to hearing it more specifically if you are so inclined.

[ScottA]

2 hours ago, Steve_S said:

I don't what your point is at this point, but, I'm open to hearing it more specifically if you are so inclined.

Well...at this time there are 4 who have chimed in with an "Oy Vey" on my OP. In this context, I should not think it is for any other reason than for spite. That is my point. It's not the many innocent possibilities - it's spite.

[Steve_S]

4 minutes ago, ScottA said:

Well...at this time there are 4 who have chimed in with an "Oy Vey" on my OP. In this context, I should not think it is for any other reason than for spite. That is my point. It's not the many innocent possibilities - it's spite.

Perhaps it's just their way of voicing their disagreement? Is disagreement always spiteful?