Is the Pope infallible..?

[RGR]

  The most amazing thing to me is how Doctrine has never been changed in 2,000 years.  Look around at all of the other Churchs, and this might even include your church.  Has your doctrine changed?  Is your Church voting on whether or not to allow homosexual clergy?  Is your Church voting on whether or not to allow abortion in certain cases?  Did Christ intend on his teachings to be voted on?  Of course not.  I hope this helps everyone to understand what the Roman Catholic Church truely teaches and why....It makes logical sense. 

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When I last heard, there were Catholics who were calling for changes within the Catholic church; allowance for homosexual clergy, abortion, etc. Thank God that a Pope was elected who doesn't buy into that but it should go to show you just how fast the RCC could go the way of perdition with the wrong person at the helm.

[Assisi]

[where is succession taught in scripture. I only see Peter mentioned, not successors

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Let me ask you this. Where in the New Testament do we learn of there being a set of inspired

books and letters that together form a definitive literary body of work to be obeyed by all

Christians?

1st Timothy 3:15 says all scripture is inspired.

If all scripture is inspired, then we need to find out what books and letters

constitute inspired scripture. Does the New Testament tell us that?

I'll wait for an answer from you first. Then I will respond to you. That is only fair

right

You said apostolic succession is not in the Bible.

Neither is the notion that there are 27 inspired books that form a definitive

body of literature for all Christians. Right?

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So your response is that the apostolic succession of Peter is not derived from scripture. Is that correct?

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While still on earth, Jesus told his apostles about his upcoming death and resurrection. He promised that after he had ascended to heaven, the Father would send to the apostles the Holy Spirit, who would

[EricH]

You seem resistant to answer my questions directly. All I am asking is a yes / no question. Is Apostilic succession found anyplace in scripture? Yes or no?

[Assisi]

You seem resistant to answer my questions directly. All I am asking is a yes / no question. Is Apostilic succession found anyplace in scripture? Yes or no?

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O.K. no more simple answers here is apostolic sucession in the Bible. Study the Bible texts here then show me Where in the New Testament do we learn of there being a set of inspired

books and letters that together form a definitive literary body of work to be obeyed by all

Christians? Chap. and verse.

Matt. 10:1,40 - Jesus declares to His apostles, "he who receives you, receives Me, and he who rejects you, rejects Me and the One who sent Me." Jesus freely gives His authority to the apostles in order for them to effectively convert the world.

Matt. 16:19; 18:18 - the apostles are given Christ's authority to make visible decisions on earth that will be ratified in heaven. God raises up humanity in Christ by exalting his chosen leaders and endowing them with the authority and grace they need to bring about the conversion of all. Without a central authority in the Church, there would be chaos (as there is in Protestantism).

Luke 9:1; 10:19 - Jesus gives the apostles authority over the natural and the supernatural (diseases, demons, serpents, and scorpions).

Luke 10:16 - Jesus tells His apostles, "he who hears you, hears Me." When we hear the bishops' teaching on the faith, we hear Christ Himself.

Luke 22:29 - the Father gives the kingdom to the Son, and the Son gives the kingdom to the apostles. The gift is transferred from the Father to the Son to the apostles.

Num 16:28 - the Father's authority is transferred to Moses. Moses does not speak on his own. This is a real transfer of authority.

John 5:30 - similarly, Jesus as man does nothing of His own authority, but He acts under the authority of the Father.

John 7:16-17 - Jesus as man states that His authority is not His own, but from God. He will transfer this authority to other men.

John 8:28 - Jesus says He does nothing on His own authority. Similarly, the apostles will do nothing on their own authority. Their authority comes from God.

John 12:49 - The father's authority is transferred to the Son. The Son does not speak on his own. This is a transfer of divine authority.

John 13:20 - Jesus says, "he who receives anyone who I send, receives Me." He who receives the apostles, receives Christ Himself. He who rejects the apostles and their successors, rejects Christ.

John 14:10 - Jesus says the Word He speaks is not His own authority, but from the Father. The gift is from the Father to Jesus to the apostles.

John 16:14-15 - what the Father has, the Son has, and the Son gives it to the apostles. The authority is not lessened or mitigated.

John 17:18; 20:21 - as the Father sends the Son, the Son sends the apostles. The apostles have divinely appointed authority.

Acts 20:28 - the apostles are shepherds and guardians appointed by the Holy Spirit / 1 Peter 2:25 - Jesus is the Shepherd and Guardian. The apostles, by the power of the Spirit, share Christ's ministry and authority.

Jer. 23:1-8; Ezek. 34:1-10 - the shepherds must shepherd the sheep, or they will be held accountable by God.

Eph. 2:20 - the Christian faith is built upon the foundation of the apostles. The word "foundation" proves that it does not die with apostles, but carries on through succession.

Eph. 2:20; Rev. 21:9,14 - the words "household," "Bride of the Lamb," the "new Jerusalem" are all metaphors for the Church whose foundation is the apostles.

This Authority is Transferred by the Sacrament of Ordination.

Acts 1:15-26 - the first thing Peter does after Jesus ascends into heaven is implement apostolic succession. Matthias is ordained with full apostolic authority. Only the Catholic Church can demonstrate an unbroken apostolic lineage to the apostles in union with Peter through the sacrament of ordination and thereby claim to teach with Christ's own authority.

Acts 1:20 - a successor of Judas is chosen. The authority of his office (his "bishopric") is respected notwithstanding his egregious sin. The necessity to have apostolic succession in order for the Church to survive was understood by all. God never said, "I'll give you leaders with authority for about 400 years, but after the Bible is compiled, you are all on your own."

Acts 1:22 - literally, "one must be ordained" to be a witness with us of His resurrection. Apostolic ordination is required in order to teach with Christ's authority.

Acts 6:6 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority has transferred beyond the original twelve apostles as the Church has grown.

Acts 9:17-19 - even Paul, who was directly chosen by Christ, only becomes a minister after the laying on of hands by a bishop. This is a powerful proof-text for the necessity of sacramental ordination in order to be a legitimate successor of the apostles.

Acts 13:3 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority must come from a Catholic bishop.

Acts 14:23 - the apostles and newly-ordained men appointed elders to have authority throughout the Church.

Acts 15:22-27 - preachers of the Word must be sent by the bishops in union with the Church. We must trace this authority to the apostles.

2 Cor. 1:21-22 - Paul writes that God has commissioned certain men and sealed them with the Holy Spirit as a guarantee.

Col 1:25 - Paul calls his position a divine "office." An office has successors. It does not terminate at death. Or it's not an office. See also Heb. 7:23

[Pax]

Eric,

The easiest way to show Apostolic Succession in the Bible is to point out this verse.

Acts 1: 25,26 "to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transression fell, that he might go to his own place. And they cast lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Peter was chosen by Christ to lead the Church, as clearly stated in scripture. Once again I have to say it only makes logical sense that there would be a successor to Peter, or else why would God appoint Peter in the first place?

Eric answer this question for me, you believe in Sola Scriptora, correct? I am assuming that as a Prostestant fresh out of the seminary you have spent much time being taught this. Point out to me in the Bible where is says only to use the Bible for all knowledge? Also point out to me in the Bible were the word Trinity is written. I can answer both for you, no place in the Bible does it state to only use scripture for all knowledge, and the word Trinity isn't used in the Bible. But I can tell you where in scripture it talks of Bible plus tradition. And we can both say that the Trinity is implied scripture. Just like the succession of Peter as the head of the Chruch is implied.

Eric, I would also like to hear what you take of Mathew 16: 18-19 is.

Edited June 3, 2005 by Pax

[EricH]

Matt. 10:1,40 - Jesus declares to His apostles, "he who receives you, receives Me, and he who rejects you, rejects Me and the One who sent Me." Jesus freely gives His authority to the apostles in order for them to effectively convert the world.

Basically a statement of what would happen to the disciples on their "short term" ministry trip. See nop mention of peter or his office being handed down. All I see is the fact that when we receive those who minister in Jesus name, we receive Him.

Matt. 16:19; 18:18 - the apostles are given Christ's authority to make visible decisions on earth that will be ratified in heaven. God raises up humanity in Christ by exalting his chosen leaders and endowing them with the authority and grace they need to bring about the conversion of all. Without a central authority in the Church, there would be chaos (as there is in Protestantism).

Matt 16:19 All I see here is that Peter is given reponsibility to begin Christ's program for the church here on earth. Peter himself is given apostilic authority. No mention of it being handed off or down

Matthew 18:18 Basically addressing discipline in the church. This is not addressed to the apostles, but to the church body in general when discipling a person in sin. Ne mention of Apostilic succession here

Luke 9:1; 10:19 - Jesus gives the apostles authority over the natural and the supernatural (diseases, demons, serpents, and scorpions).

Again this was done for their shirt term ministry trip. It does not adress the unique office given to Peter, or the fact that these powers would be handed down. Infact I can't think of the last time I saw a Pope heal a disease . Pope John paul was stabbed an injured. So evidently it did not work (Luke 10:19)

Luke 10:16 - Jesus tells His apostles, "he who hears you, hears Me." When we hear the bishops' teaching on the faith, we hear Christ Himself.

Yes as teaches speak Jesus words and people respond to them, they are hearing Him. No mention of succession here

Luke 22:29 - the Father gives the kingdom to the Son, and the Son gives the kingdom to the apostles. The gift is transferred from the Father to the Son to the apostles.

Actually the kingodom is granted to all believers in severl passages. No mention of succession to Peter here

Num 16:28 - the Father's authority is transferred to Moses. Moses does not speak on his own. This is a real transfer of authority.

Yes to Moses.No mention of Peter here. I am not arguing that God can;t grant authority to people. I am asking where it specifically says the special office given to Peter (according to catholics) would be handed down.

John 5:30 - similarly, Jesus as man does nothing of His own authority, but He acts under the authority of the Father.

Yes Jesus was dependant on the Father. No mention of Peter's office

John 7:16-17 - Jesus as man states that His authority is not His own, but from God. He will transfer this authority to other men.

Actually Jesus said his teaching was not His own, but came directly from God, and that if a person was willing to obey him they would be able to tell that the teaching came fom God. You misquoted this

John 8:28 - Jesus says He does nothing on His own authority. Similarly, the apostles will do nothing on their own authority. Their authority comes from God.

Jesus said he did nothing on His own authority, you added the second part. It is not there. That is a misquote.

John 12:49 - The father's authority is transferred to the Son. The Son does not speak on his own. This is a transfer of divine authority.

Again this speaks of Jesus' relationship to the Father, not that of the Popes, unless you are equating the Pope with Jesus somehow

[EricH]

John 13:20 - Jesus says, he who receives anyone who I send, receives Me. He who receives the apostles, receives Christ Himself. He who rejects the apostles and their successors, rejects Christ.

No mention of Peter or succession here. Applies to all that follow Christ

John 14:10 - Jesus says the Word He speaks is not His own authority, but from the Father. The gift is from the Father to Jesus to the apostles.

Yes the first part is right. Jesus indicates that He spoke only what the father told him. He claims equality with the Father. You added the second part it is not there. Partial "misquote"

John 16:14-15 - what the Father has, the Son has, and the Son gives it to the apostles. The authority is not lessened or mitigated.

This passage is not adressing authority. It is never mentioned. He is speaking of His glorification. You added authority. Parital misquote

John 17:18; 20:21 - as the Father sends the Son, the Son sends the apostles. The apostles have divinely appointed authority.

And He later sent all believers (Matt 28:19-20. We are sent into the world to minister to it. No mention of special authority in any of these verses. Added by you. Partial misquote

Acts 20:28 - the apostles are shepherds and guardians appointed by the Holy Spirit / 1 Peter 2:25 - Jesus is the Shepherd and Guardian. The apostles, by the power of the Spirit, share Christ's ministry and authority.

Acts 20:28 is actually paul adressing the elders at Ephesus. they are given oversite of their congregations. All elders are. No special mention of Peter here

1 Peter 2:25 only mentions that they had returned to the good shepher Jesus. No mention of the apostles. You added that. partial misquote

Jer. 23:1-8; Ezek. 34:1-10 - the shepherds must shepherd the sheep, or they will be held accountable by God.

True for all shpherds. No mention of Peter

Eph. 2:20 - the Christian faith is built upon the foundation of the apostles. The word "foundation" proves that it does not die with apostles, but carries on through succession.

Actually it lists the Apostles, prophets, and Jesus himself. No mention of successors. Foundation does not prove anything. It means that it is the basis for our faith. No mention of successor

Eph. 2:20; Rev. 21:9,14 - the words "household," "Bride of the Lamb," the "new Jerusalem" are all metaphors for the Church whose foundation is the apostles.

This Authority is Transferred by the Sacrament of Ordination.

See above. Foundation proves nothing. You added the sacramewnt of ordination. It is not there in the text. Partial misquote

Acts 1:15-26 - the first thing Peter does after Jesus ascends into heaven is implement apostolic succession. Matthias is ordained with full apostolic authority. Only the Catholic Church can demonstrate an unbroken apostolic lineage to the apostles in union with Peter through the sacrament of ordination and thereby claim to teach with Christ's own authority

Acts 1:20 - a successor of Judas is chosen. The authority of his office (his "bishopric") is respected notwithstanding his egregious sin. The necessity to have apostolic succession in order for the Church to survive was understood by all. God never said, "I'll give you leaders with authority for about 400 years, but after the Bible is compiled, you are all on your own."

Actually he replaced one of the 12. Are you now saying that there is a succession for all 12? No indication that would be in perpetuality. It was an historic event. you cannot derive theology from historic events unless the text so demands. Judas hung himself. We are not to do the same

Acts 1:22 - literally, "one must be ordained" to be a witness with us of His resurrection. Apostolic ordination is required in order to teach with Christ's authority.

Actually the greek word for witness is martus and means witness, not ordained. Misquote

[EricH]

Acts 6:6 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority has transferred beyond the original twelve apostles as the Church has grown.

Actually there is no mention of succession here or transfer of authority. The 7 that were chosen were ordained to serve tables to free the apostles up to do what they had been called to do. You added the word authority - misquote

Acts 9:17-19 - even Paul, who was directly chosen by Christ, only becomes a minister after the laying on of hands by a bishop. This is a powerful proof-text for the necessity of sacramental ordination in order to be a legitimate successor of the apostles.

Actually he was healing Paul of his blindness and affirming the call that God had already placed on him. Ananias was not an apostle, so how could authority be transferred?

Acts 13:3 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority must come from a Catholic bishop.

No mention of a transfer of authority here or Peter's office

Acts 14:23 - the apostles and newly-ordained men appointed elders to have authority throughout the Church.

They appointed elders for local congregations. Not additional apostles. No mention of Peter

Acts 15:22-27 - preachers of the Word must be sent by the bishops in union with the Church. We must trace this authority to the apostles.

Actually they were sent by the apostles, elders, and the whole church to deliver a message from the apostles. No mention of transfer of authority. Only being tasked to do a job

2 Cor. 1:21-22 - Paul writes that God has commissioned certain men and sealed them with the Holy Spirit as a guarantee.

Actually this is a reference to all the believers at the church all are sealed and annointed by God. It does not say certain men. You added that. Partial misquote

Col 1:25 - Paul calls his position a divine "office." An office has successors. It does not terminate at death. Or it's not an office. See also Heb. 7:23

[EricH]

2 Tim. 1:6 - Paul again reminds Timothy the unique gift of God that he received through the laying on of hands.

No mention of apostilic authority

2 Tim. 4:1-6 - at end of Paul's life, Paul charges Timothy with the office of his ministry . We must trace true apostolic lineage back to a Catholic bishop.

No mention of the word office or bishop. Only telling Timothy to carry out his ministry. You added bishop and office. Misquote

2 Tim. 2:2 - this verse shows God's intention is to transfer authority to successors (here, Paul to Timothy to 3rd to 4th generation). It goes beyond the death of the apostles.

Model for discipleship we should all follow. No mention of office or apostilic authority

Titus 1:5; Luke 10:1 - the elders of the Church are appointed and hold authority. God has His children participate in Christ's work

No argument here. No mention of apostilic authority though.

1 John 4:6 - whoever knows God listens to us (the bishops and the successors to the apostles). This is the way we discern truth and error (not just by reading the Bible and interpreting it for ourselves)

Does not say Bishops etc. You added that

I could continue if you want, but as you can see none of your examples prove your point. In several you added words to the verse and some you just plain misquoted. If you want me to address the remaining let me know. The quesion still stands

Please note: The last four posts were originally one long post. I had to break them up to get the quotes to work all of the way. There is eveidently a limiter

[EricH]

Eric,

The easiest way to show Apostolic Succession in the Bible is to point out this verse.

Acts 1: 25,26 "to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transression fell, that he might go to his own place.  And they cast lots, and the lot fell on Matthias.  And he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Peter was chosen by Christ to lead the Church, as clearly stated in scripture.  Once again I have to say it only makes logical sense that there would be a successor to Peter, or else why would God appoint Peter in the first place? 

  I am assuming that as a Prostestant fresh out of the seminary you have spent much time being taught this. 

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Wrong assumption. I have been out of seminary 10 years. What is your background. I'll respond to the rest later. Please kindly respond to my requests for you to interact with verses on the other thread