Romans 3:11-18

[Fiosh]

Hi PH,

Great topic! And one that I've often discussed with my brother who believes absolutely in total free will--it's a very important thing to him.

While I also believe in total free will, I often offer my will to God and ask for the perfect will of Jesus.

You are never more free than when you surrender to God.

Here's my opinion (and it's worth what you're payin' for it)

Suppose my son is approached by a scam artist trying to sell him some swamp land in Florida. (my apologies to any Floridians here)

This con artist makes it sound fabulous and my poor son is blinded by the "bells and whistles". He's ready to buy it at a fantastic price, when I say...........

Wait a minute! Open your eyes and see this for what it is!!!

And I help him see clearly what this guy is selling. I urge him to reconsider.

Having seen the truth, my son does not buy into it.

Get my drift?

If not.... Our sinful nature often blinds us to the bill of goods that Satan or the world presents. Because we don't have all the facts, we can't actually make a FREE choice. The Holy Spirit opens our eyes to the Truth.

We make the choice.

Peace,

Fiosh

[Guest Johannes]

Those verses, and Romans 8:30, Romans 9:16-21 and John 6:44 are some of the most overlooked verses in the Bible. Here is Romans 9:16-21, which I think says it all:

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

How one can deny predestination is just beyond me. It is Biblical fact.

[BigJer]

Rom 8:29-30 "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."

This is found right before your above quotes. His predestination is based on His foreknowledge. Not on His sovranty.

One thing that I see is that it is clear that there are times when He makes some choices. (Examples of this already stated.) Why would He do it? I cannot go beyond scripture. It isn't because He just picks and choses and too bad for the others. He does it to demonstrate His wrath, power, or His longsuffering.

He has the ability and power to make these choices, but I also see where:

Ro 10:11-12 

For the Scripture says,

[BigJer]

Check out this article

This article shows a good balance on this subject.

[Guest PistosHuios]

Rom 8:29-30 "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."

This is found right before your above quotes. His predestination is based on His foreknowledge. Not on His sovranty. 

I am glad someone brought this. My major question is did he predestine and call every individual? If not, then Calvin was right in regards to salvation, if he did predestine and call every individual, in the manner you suggest, then this verse would say that EVERY INDIVIDUAL would get saved...

"Moreover whom He predestined (every individual), these He also called(every individual); whom He called, these He also justified(every individual); and whom He justified(every individual), these He also glorified."

Now if your saying that God Predestines and Calls everyone, but some don't respond... then this verse is a lie! It says that those whom he called, he also justifies, there is no room for Some of the called not getting Justified.

Calvin, and those who agree with His veiw see the verse like this...

Moreover whom He predestined (Certain individuals), these He also called (Certain individuals); whom He called, these He also justified (Certain individuals); and whom He justified, these He also glorified.(Certain individuals)"

This verse does not allow for some of the called to get saved and others to reject. It clearly states that everyone who is predestined is Justified and Glorified. That means that either everyone gets saved (universalism) or that God has indeed chosen some from amidst the evil, to display his Glory...

As James put it "OF His own will He brough us forth by the word of Truth."

[BigJer]

Rom 8:29-30 "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."

This is found right before your above quotes. His predestination is based on His foreknowledge. Not on His sovranty. 

I am glad someone brought this. My major question is did he predestine and call every individual? If not, then Calvin was right in regards to salvation, if he did predestine and call every individual, in the manner you suggest, then this verse would say that EVERY INDIVIDUAL would get saved...

"Moreover whom He predestined (every individual), these He also called(every individual); whom He called, these He also justified(every individual); and whom He justified(every individual), these He also glorified."

Now if your saying that God Predestines and Calls everyone, but some don't respond... then this verse is a lie! It says that those whom he called, he also justifies, there is no room for Some of the called not getting Justified.

Calvin, and those who agree with His veiw see the verse like this...

Moreover whom He predestined (Certain individuals), these He also called (Certain individuals); whom He called, these He also justified (Certain individuals); and whom He justified, these He also glorified.(Certain individuals)"

This verse does not allow for some of the called to get saved and others to reject. It clearly states that everyone who is predestined is Justified and Glorified. That means that either everyone gets saved (universalism) or that God has indeed chosen some from amidst the evil, to display his Glory...

As James put it "OF His own will He brough us forth by the word of Truth."

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It isn't saying that ALL are predestined to heaven. It is based on His "foreknowledge". There can be a lot of things invovled in His foreknowledge.

[Guest PistosHuios]

Yes but the verse clearly states that those whom he forknew and predestined...He also justified...and Glorified.

There is no room for Some of those he called being not justified. It clearly says "those whom he called, he also justified.

Basically if one is true of a person, they all are, that's what this verse says, plainly

[BigJer]

Yes but the verse clearly states that those whom he forknew and predestined...He also justified...and Glorified.

There is no room for Some of those he called being not justified.  It clearly says "those whom he called, he also justified.

Basically if one is true of a person, they all are, that's what this verse says, plainly

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[Guest Johannes]

'Foreknew' simply means that Christ knew us before we were born:

John 10:14-15

I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me

Edited April 30, 2005 by Johannes

[Catsmeow]

I never read the other thread so I only have your opening post to go by but it is simple I think.

It is ALL His work... Salvation, Sanctification...all of it. 

BUT it is up to us whether or not we listen to HIS Voice.  He calls us but we must respond.

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Great post, Wayne!