Why I Am A Christian Zionist

[arachnogeek]

1 minute ago, shiloh357 said:

He is a holocaust denier.  That is not an ad hominem.  He associates with those people in public. That is his position.

You're very difficult to reason with. It is plain to everyone that you're engaging in an ad hominem! 

Here's exactly how you're engaging in ad hominem: 

Steven Sizer: "The Jews are not God's chosen people and the Church is the true Israel"

Shiloh: "Steven Sizer is a holocaust denier, therefore his statement is incorrect"

Do you see what you've done? You have attacked his character rather than the beliefs expressed in the quote I cited in my paper. (the quote that first led you to say he is a holocaust denier). 

As I said earlier, Steven Sizer could be the devil in the flesh and it still wouldn't give you the right to dismiss his quote. You must engage with truthfulness of his claims, not about his character. 

[Guest shiloh357]

3 minutes ago, arachnogeek said:

That's true. Ironically though, Martin Luther hated the jews...and yet you and I don't discredit him smoky because he was an anti-Semite 

I discredit him, as well as all of the early church fathers as they were all pretty much anti-Semitic.  Church history is littered with extreme anti-Semitism and hatred of Jews.   It is the foundation of the lie that that the Church is Israel and that Christians are "spiritual Jews" and all of that rot.  History is replete with church-led pogroms and mass murders of Jews all "in the name of Jesus."  

It's why the church, even in the US was largely silent during the Holocaust.  It's why German soldiers could murder Jews and others in the gas chambers and continue to be baptized members in good standing in the local churches.   

Hitler even had a team of theologians in Germany who gave him a theological basis for the Final Solution.   One of the those men was Gerhard Kittel the author of the famous "Theological Dictionary of the New Testament"   He and is Father Rudolph were card carrying members of the Nazi party.

[arachnogeek]

1 minute ago, Davida said:

Oh you don't care if Sizer is Satan?   Well!!  LOL That SAYS IT ALL!! 

You are willfully engaging in ad hominem. I'm afraid there isn't much else we can discuss until accept that you're being unreasonable. 

Deal with Sizer's arguments, not his character. It's an easy cop-out. 

[arachnogeek]

4 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

I discredit him, as well as all of the early church fathers as they were all pretty much anti-Semitic.

How can you be an ordained Southern Baptist Pastor and discredit Martin Luther? And you thought I was out left field....

[Guest shiloh357]

5 minutes ago, arachnogeek said:

You're very difficult to reason with. It is plain to everyone that you're engaging in an ad hominem! 

Here's exactly how you're engaging in ad hominem: 

Steven Sizer: "The Jews are not God's chosen people and the Church is the true Israel"

Shiloh: "Steven Sizer is a holocaust denier, therefore his statement is incorrect"

No, my statement isn't "Steven Sizer is a holocaust denier, therefore his statement is incorrect."   My statement more like, "Steven Sizer is a holocaust denier, therefore his statement that Israel is a racist, apartheid state has no credibility given that holocaust denial is a major racist position. 

Quote

Do you see what you've done? You have attacked his character rather than the beliefs expressed in the quote I cited in my paper. (the quote that first led you to say he is a holocaust denier). 

Anyone who denies the holocaust has disqualified themselves from having anything authoritative or meaningful to say.  He possesses no moral authority or theological authority given that his hatred of Jews taints his interpretation of Scripture.

Quote

As I said earlier, Steven Sizer could be the devil in the flesh and it still wouldn't give you the right to dismiss his quote.

Well, yet it would give me that since Satan is a liar, according to Jesus.  It's pretty easy to discredit liars.

[Guest shiloh357]

2 minutes ago, arachnogeek said:

How can you be an ordained Southern Baptist Pastor and discredit Martin Luther? And you thought I was out left field....

I discredit all anti-Semite theologians.

It's funny how we readily discredit preachers that promote white supremacy, but give Martin Luther a pass when it comes to anti-Semitism.   I would not listen to a preacher who wrote a book saying these things about Jews:

 

Therefore be on your guard against the Jews, knowing that wherever they have their synagogues, nothing is found but a den of devils in which sheer self­glory, conceit, lies, blasphemy, and defaming of God and men are practiced most maliciously and veheming his eyes on them.

* * *

Moreover, they are nothing but thieves and robbers who daily eat no morsel and wear no thread of clothing which they have not stolen and pilfered from us by means of their accursed usury. Thus they live from day to day, together with wife and child, by theft and robbery, as arch­thieves and robbers, in the most impenitent security.

* * *

However, they have not acquired a perfect mastery of the art of lying; they lie so clumsily and ineptly that anyone who is just a little observant can easily detect it. But for us Christians they stand as a terrifying example of God's wrath.

* * *

If I had to refute all the other articles of the Jewish faith, I should be obliged to write against them as much and for as long a time as they have used for inventing their lies­­ that is, longer than two thousand years.

* * *

...Christ and his word can hardly be recognized because of the great vermin of human ordinances. However, let this suffice for the time being on their lies against doctrine or faith.

* * *

Did I not tell you earlier that a Jew is such a noble, precious jewel that God and all the angels dance when he farts?

* * *

Alas, it cannot be anything but the terrible wrath of God which permits anyone to sink into such abysmal, devilish, hellish, insane baseness, envy, and arrogance. If I were to avenge myself on the devil himself I should be unable to wish him such evil and misfortune as God's wrath inflicts on the Jews, compelling them to lie and to blaspheme so monstrously, in violation of their own conscience. Anyway, they have their reward for constantly giving God the lie.

* * *

No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants.

* * *

...but then eject them forever from this country. For, as we have heard, God's anger with them is so intense that gentle mercy will only tend to make them worse and worse, while sharp mercy will reform them but little. Therefore, in any case, away with them!

* * *

Over and above that we let them get rich on our sweat and blood, while we remain poor and they such the marrow from our bones.

* * *

I brief, dear princes and lords, those of you who have Jews under your rule­­ if my counsel does not please your, find better advice, so that you and we all can be rid of the unbearable, devilish burden of the Jews, lest we become guilty sharers before God in the lies, blasphemy, the defamation, and the curses which the mad Jews indulge in so freely and wantonly against the person of our Lord Jesus Christ, this dear mother, all Christians, all authority, and ourselves. Do not grant them protection, safe­conduct, or communion with us.... .With this faithful counsel and warning I wish to cleanse and exonerate my conscience.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/martin-luther-quot-the-jews-and-their-lies-quot

[arachnogeek]

2 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

I would not listen to a preacher who wrote a book saying these things about Jews:

I'm afraid you're you'll be disappointed to know that 500 years from now, people will discredit you too (if you happen to leave a plethora of written works) because we are all blinded to some degree to the sins of our age. It is anachronistic to blame Luther for what he believed at his time. He was a man of his times. Just as Godly Christians owned slaves in previous generations in your country, we are also guilty of unknown sins. 

 

[Guest shiloh357]

1 minute ago, arachnogeek said:

I'm afraid you're you'll be disappointed to know that 500 years from now, people will discredit you too (if you happen to leave a plethora of written works) because we are all blinded to some degree to the sins of our age. It is anachronistic to blame Luther for what he believed at his time. He was a man of his times. Just as Godly Christians owned slaves in previous generations in your country, we are also guilty of unknown sins. 

 

Luther's anti-Semitism was the result of being a man of his times. Luther was angry that the Jews didn't flock to his brand of Christianity like he thought they would and he harbored a racist, bitter, seething hatred for them that cannot be excused on any level, nor can it be blamed on culture. 

You cannot compare that to slavery.  Those two things are entirely dissimilar.

[arachnogeek]

Btw, the reasons we're not Roman Catholics is largely due to Luther's courage in opposing Rome's false doctrines and ecclesiology. Let's all have a little humility and realize we owe it to him. 

[Guest shiloh357]

Following are a few things the early church fathers had to say about the Jews:

 

Origen of Alexandria (185-254 A.D.) – An ecclesiastical writer and teacher who contributed to the early formation of Christian doctrines.

We may thus assert in utter confidence that the Jews will not return to their earlier situation, for they have committed the most abominable of crimes, in forming this conspiracy against the Savior of the human race…hence the city where Jesus suffered was necessarily destroyed, the Jewish nation was driven from its country, and another people was called by God to the blessed election.

St. Augustine:

“Judaism is a corruption.  Indeed Judas is the image of the Jewish people.  Their understanding of the Scriptures is carnal.  They bear the guilt for the death of the saviour, for through their fathers they have killed the Christ.”

St. Gregory:

“ Jews are slayers of the Lord, murderers of the prophets, enemies of God, haters of God, adversaries of grace, enemies of their fathers’ faith, advocates of the devil, brood of vipers, slanderers, scoffers, men of darkened minds, leaven of the Pharisees, congregation of demons, sinners, wicked men, stoners and haters of goodness.”

St. Jerome:

“....serpents, haters of all men, their image is Judas ... their psalms and prayers are the braying of donkeys..”
 

John Chrysostom – Known in his day as the “golden tongued preacher”:

“I know that many people hold a high regard for the Jews and consider their way of life worthy of respect at the present time... This is why I am hurrying to pull up this fatal notion by the roots ... A place where a whore stands on display is a whorehouse.  What is more, the synagogue is not only a whorehouse and a theater; it is also a den of thieves and a haunt of wild animals ... not the cave of a wild animal merely, but of an unclean wild animal ... When animals are unfit for work, they are marked for slaughter, and this is the very thing which the Jews have experienced.  By making themselves unfit for work, they have become ready for slaughter. 

Jews are the most worthless of men - they are lecherous, greedy, rapacious - they are perfidious murderers of Christians, they worship the devil, their religion is a sickness ... The Jews are the odious assassins of Christ and for killing God there is no expiation, no indulgence, no pardon. Christians may never cease vengeance. The Jews must live in servitude forever. It is incumbent on all Christians to hate the Jews."

I hate the Jews because they violate the Law. I hate the synagogue because it has the Law and the prophets. It is the duty of all Christians to hate the Jews.

(Homilies Against the Jews" in Patrologia Graeca)

Peter the Venerable:

Yes, you Jews. I say, do I address you; you, who till this very day, deny the Son of God. How long, poor wretches, will ye not believe the truth? Truly I doubt whether a Jew can be really human… I lead out from its den a monstrous animal, and show it as a laughing stock in the amphitheater of the world, in the sight of all the people. I bring thee forward, thou Jew, thou brute beast, in the sight of all men.

Martin Luther

Listen, Jew, are you aware that Jerusalem and your sovereignty, together with your temple and priesthood, have been destroyed for over 1,460 years?”. . . For such ruthless wrath of God is sufficient evidence that they assuredly have erred and gone astray. . . . Therefore this work of wrath is proof that the Jews, surely rejected by God, are no longer his people, and neither is he any longer their God.
 

Now, compare the above with the words of Adolf Hitler: 

“I believe that I am today acting according to the purposes of the Almighty Creator. In resisting the Jew, I am fighting the Lord’s battle.”