IF...

[tsth]

I guess the real question is, was I really saved in the first place.

I've been a follower of Jesus for nearly 15 years and I still struggle with some of the same things I struggled with back then. That doesn't make me feel comfortable in my salvation. I feel the best I can hope for is to carry on and Jesus will be for more forgiving than I could ever imagine.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I know there is a God and Christ is His Son and His Spirit guides me. I know this beyond a shadow of a doubt. There is nothing greater than the power of God and I believe the only way to see God is through His Son Jesus and the only way to go through Christ is the Holy Spirit. I believe all that.

So if I believe all that, I must be saved. Right?

I mean I believe whole heartedly in John 3:16. There is nothing in this world that can take this belief away from me.

But what I've been reading here is that all I have to do is believe. I can go back to my drugs, my booze, my women, my stealing, my lies, everything I put behind me because of my genuine belief in the All Mighty.

I don't need to read the bible because I'm saved. I don't need to walk in the Light bacause I'm saved. It doesn't matter what I do because I'm saved.

Some of you will say I was never saved to begin with but that statement doesn't apply because I believe. And believing is all that's needed, right? I believe God's commandments but I don't have to follow them because I'm saved, right?

I don't think so.

God gave us a message and that message is Christ. He gave us a book and a simple set of rules to live by. He said "if you deny Me, I will deny you".

The bible is full of passages that talk about what will happen if we turn our backs on God.

If simply believing is all that is needed to be saved, Christ died in vain.

Again, I expect hate mail, but that's ok. How else are you going to learn.

If you all don't want to hear the message, just tell me to go away and I will.

"It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God".  Heb. 10:31

You all have a good one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And again I say, read this: (Humor me, read it ALL the way through please.)

Does Anyone Believe?

I think it explains much of our current confusion. Read my testimony and see if it is you, as well.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[jc49]

I know there is a God and Christ is His Son and His Spirit guides me. I know this beyond a shadow of a doubt. There is nothing greater than the power of God and I believe the only way to see God is through His Son Jesus and the only way to go through Christ is the Holy Spirit. I believe all that.

So if I believe all that, I must be saved. Right?

I mean I believe whole heartedly in John 3:16. There is nothing in this world that can take this belief away from me.

But what I've been reading here is that all I have to do is believe. I can go back to my drugs, my booze, my women, my stealing, my lies, everything I put behind me because of my genuine belief in the All Mighty.

I don't need to read the bible because I'm saved. I don't need to walk in the Light bacause I'm saved. It doesn't matter what I do because I'm saved.

Some of you will say I was never saved to begin with but that statement doesn't apply because I believe. And believing is all that's needed, right? I believe God's commandments but I don't have to follow them because I'm saved, right?

I don't think so.

God gave us a message and that message is Christ. He gave us a book and a simple set of rules to live by. He said "if you deny Me, I will deny you".

The bible is full of passages that talk about what will happen if we turn our backs on God.

If simply believing is all that is needed to be saved, Christ died in vain.

Again, I expect hate mail, but that's ok. How else are you going to learn.

If you all don't want to hear the message, just tell me to go away and I will.

"It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God".  Heb. 10:31

You all have a good one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ok ok

No hate mail or silly stuff like that....but I really want to say something here brother...

Salvation IS THE WORK of GOD......we can add NOTHING....NOTHING...NOTHING

reading the bible,great,praying,great,witnessing,great,giving,great,loving God and our neighbour,great,but this doesn't constitutes salvation....

When Jesus died on the cross we were not even born,were we?

When BEFORE the foundation of the world GOD planned HIS PLAN to save lost sinners like me,we were not there..were we?

When Jesus rose from the dead...and then ascended to God...were we there?

NO.

Then one day Jesus comes in our life..GREAT! I have my testimony how it happened and in the years I have heard hundreds of other testimony...all diverse one from the other,but one common theme,JESUS IS THE SAVIOUR.

Were we looking for HIM? NO...I wasn't! In fact I was so dead and blind that I DIDN"T EVEN KNOW that JESUS ,THE LIVING GOD existed!!!!

But HE KNEW ME!!!and HE CAME TO SAVE ME and YOU and any other one that has ever BELIEVED and will ever BELIEVE and RECEIVE BY GRACE through FAITH THE LORD JESUS CHRIST!!!!

Now,tell me ,my brother,WHERE IS OUR MERIT in getting SAVED?

Getting saved is a very HUMILIATING experience....and I explain myself...it is humiliating to bow the heart and the knee...yes,because THE PRIDE of the FLESH dominates us and we all think in our own right to be SOMEBODY....and then when CHRIST comes we realize that we are a NOBODY....that ALL our religion,philosophy,and blah blah blah is just that BLAH BLAH BLAH VANITY!!!!

So where is the MERIT?

Where is the merit of someone who is drowing in the sea and gets rescued by the life saver that risks his own life to save him/her?

NOW,it took THE LIFE of GOD'S SON TO SAVE US,HE SHED HIS PRECIOUS MOST HOLY PURE BLOOD and we,puny men,useless grasshoppers,filthy sinners,we think that we can keep ourselves saved by following rules and regulations?????

If this is what we think, WE SHOULD RESTART the ALL PROCESS....like going on our bent and bowed hearts and knees and look at the CRUCIFIED ONE ,back to the cross,and then CRY for MERCY....but thank be to GOD that HE HAS GRANTED MERCY and PARON to ANYONE that BELIEVES in HIS SON JESUS,....but our "religious" spirit cannot accept that ALL HE ASKS IS TO BELIEVE!!!!

We want DO,DO,DO,...works..dead works of the stinking flesh.....making the grace of God vain....

ROMANS 7 and 8 are the chapters that bring FREEDOM...FREEDOM in CHRIST

We,as born again believers are the only human being that have TWO NATURES,the old and the NEW and according which of the two we feed OUR WALK will be either a defeated one or an overcoming one,but OUR SALVATION HAS BEEN PURCHASED BY HIS BLOOD and the moment ( blessed moment indeed) that by HIS GRACE we have believed THE HOLY SPIRIT HAS SEALED US ETERNALLY .

The HOLY SPIRIT has sealed us,we didn't seal ourselves!Just like JESUS saved us paying the PRICE not ourselves,just like THE FATHER LOVED US SO MUCH but we DIDN't love HIM!!!!

When,with HIS HELP,we understand GRACE,we will not need anymore all the man made rules and regulations so popular in the churches that PUT LEGALISTIC BURDENS,UNBEARABLE (literally!!) BURDENS on a people of THE NEW COVENANT that the religionist of our modetrn days want DOMINATE putting them IN BONDAGE to DENOMINATIONS and LEADERS that call themselves REVERENDS etc...when ONLY ONE is REVEREND in PRAISES and THAT IS ALMIGHTY GOD and thats' it!!!!

The entrance of HIS WORD brings LIGHT and REVELATION ,but HIS WORD NEEDS to BE RIGHTLY DIVIDED and STUDIED under the guidance of THE HOLY SPIRIT....

JESUS CHRIST IS THE SAME,YESTERDAY,TODAY and FOR EVER,HE SAVED,SAVES and WILL SAVE HIS CHILDREN that ARE SAFE in HIS HANDS and in HIS FATHER HANDS and NOTHING can be added to that!!!

Our part is TO BELIEVE and even that is HIS GIFT.....and we cannot boast,but in GOD

GRACE and PEACE and LOVE in CHRIST,

bro Roberto

[OneAccord]

I know there is a God and Christ is His Son and His Spirit guides me. I know this beyond a shadow of a doubt. There is nothing greater than the power of God and I believe the only way to see God is through His Son Jesus and the only way to go through Christ is the Holy Spirit. I believe all that.

So if I believe all that, I must be saved. Right?

I mean I believe whole heartedly in John 3:16. There is nothing in this world that can take this belief away from me.

But what I've been reading here is that all I have to do is believe. I can go back to my drugs, my booze, my women, my stealing, my lies, everything I put behind me because of my genuine belief in the All Mighty.

I don't need to read the bible because I'm saved. I don't need to walk in the Light bacause I'm saved. It doesn't matter what I do because I'm saved.

Some of you will say I was never saved to begin with but that statement doesn't apply because I believe. And believing is all that's needed, right? I believe God's commandments but I don't have to follow them because I'm saved, right?

I don't think so.

God gave us a message and that message is Christ. He gave us a book and a simple set of rules to live by. He said "if you deny Me, I will deny you".

The bible is full of passages that talk about what will happen if we turn our backs on God.

If simply believing is all that is needed to be saved, Christ died in vain.

Again, I expect hate mail, but that's ok. How else are you going to learn.

If you all don't want to hear the message, just tell me to go away and I will.

"It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God".

[ted]

Amen!

t.

[BigJer]

I hate to be a pain. However, I noticed that nobody directly addressed the quotes and why there seemed to be some conditions in those verses. I would be interested in a direct discussion on those.

[Christ's Free Servant]

I'm gonna get some hate mail for this, but yes, you can lose your salvation. It's only logical. Think about it.

I come off rude and arrogant sometimes. I don't mean too. It's just my way of getting His message across. Christ never sugar coated the Word, I can only follow His lead.

I hope this answered your question.

Have a good one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I thought you came across just fine. I don't mind "direct." I can be pretty "direct" myself sometimes. I also have never been good at "sugar coating." I suppose that is a good thing. I also try to follow the example of Christ, but he did a much better job than I do many times. I'm still learning and growing.

Yes, you answered my question just fine. I do not doubt the "if" verses. I believe what they say. My main question, I think, is how to reconcile them against the verses that the OSAS theology uses to prove OSAS. And, it is not even a matter of their theology versus mine. I am a teacher of the word. I try to teach the truth of God's word. In teaching the "if" verses, I can not ignore the "eternal security" verses. Prior to this time, I have always just presented both sides of the issue and asked people to search for themselves. I guess God is just really impressing on my heart that I need to be able to give an answer for this, because people need to know the truth. There is too much watered-down gospel going out there.

[Christ's Free Servant]

I hate to be a pain. However, I noticed that nobody directly addressed the quotes and why there seemed to be some conditions in those verses. I would be interested in a direct discussion on those.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Me, too! Personally, I believe that what you see is what you get. In other words, I do believe God's word sets conditions for our salvation. It is not by works that we are saved, which is the argument you will get back from the OSAS people when you present these verses to them, but yet they do not have an answer for these verses, except they state that they have to do with the Christian walk and that if you are not walking with the Lord it will impact your relationship with Christ; your fellowship with him, but then they argue that it CAN NOT ultimately impact your salvation. But, I don't see how these verses can be translated any other way than to say that the completion of our salvation is conditional on whether or not we continue in our faith. I believe the OSAS theology gives people "instant" salvation and then gives them a "quick trip ticket" into heaven, and there is no cost to them at all. That is not how I read the Bible. And, I think a lot of people are going to be saying "but, Lord, Lord, did we not do this in your name?" And, I believe God wants me to teach the truth of his word and to present to people in these last days that they must repent, they must take up their cross daily and follow Christ, and they must continue in their faith if they want to have that promise of eternal life. I guess the whole thing comes down to an understanding of what it means to truly "believe." I truly believe this is where we have our breakdown of understanding of what the scriptures on salvation mean. Too many people translate "believe" as some emotional experience, but to truly believe in someone or something involves full commitment. When Jesus called his disciples, it says they left everything and followed him. Today we teach that if someone prays a prayer they have their ticket into heaven, but where is the "leaving everything and following Christ?"

[Christ's Free Servant]

http://www.drurywriting.com/keith/security.htm

This page does a great job of describing my thoughts on the OSAS issue. Thoughts?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for the link!! I am printing the writing off right now, will read over it and then I'll get back with you. I have been looking for a way to explain this on the "middle ground," so I hope this helps! God's word does not contradict itself, so there has to be a way to explain the "eternal security" verses in light of the "if" verses and have them all make sense together. To me, it is not about you have your verses and I have mine and you have your doctrine and I have mine. It is about truth. It is about being a seeker of truth. I want to know what God's word says so that I can obey it and so that I can teach others the truth. So, there has to be an answer. I'll let you know what I think of the writing when I have had time to digest it. Thanks!!

[Christ's Free Servant]

I know there is a God and Christ is His Son and His Spirit guides me. I know this beyond a shadow of a doubt. There is nothing greater than the power of God and I believe the only way to see God is through His Son Jesus and the only way to go through Christ is the Holy Spirit. I believe all that.

So if I believe all that, I must be saved. Right?

I mean I believe whole heartedly in John 3:16. There is nothing in this world that can take this belief away from me.

But what I've been reading here is that all I have to do is believe. I can go back to my drugs, my booze, my women, my stealing, my lies, everything I put behind me because of my genuine belief in the All Mighty.

I don't need to read the bible because I'm saved. I don't need to walk in the Light bacause I'm saved. It doesn't matter what I do because I'm saved.

Some of you will say I was never saved to begin with but that statement doesn't apply because I believe. And believing is all that's needed, right? I believe God's commandments but I don't have to follow them because I'm saved, right?

I don't think so.

God gave us a message and that message is Christ. He gave us a book and a simple set of rules to live by. He said "if you deny Me, I will deny you".

The bible is full of passages that talk about what will happen if we turn our backs on God.

If simply believing is all that is needed to be saved, Christ died in vain.

Again, I expect hate mail, but that's ok. How else are you going to learn.

If you all don't want to hear the message, just tell me to go away and I will.

"It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God".  Heb. 10:31

You all have a good one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree! In defense of the OSAS theology here for just a minute, I can understand where they are coming from. If we are saved by grace and not by our works, then that puts the burden of our salvation on Christ and not on us, which is true. But, as Suzanne pointed out, grace is what gives us the ability to obey Christ day by day. We are not the ones doing it, so it is still grace (if I understood her correctly). Grace even gives us the ability to believe to begin with.

The other positive aspect of OSAS is that you KNOW you have eternal life and you don't have to live with a hammer hanging over your head. I guess the big drawback to the "if" verses is at what point can you lose your salvation? How do I know for sure if I am going to heaven? The Bible says we can be sure. So, if you teach others the "if" verses, how do you give them assurance of salvation? How do you explain to them at what point they are no longer saved? Where do we draw the line? As someone else pointed out so eloquently, he still sins - well, we all sin. So, at what point would you become "unsaved"? I guess that is my big question. I have no issues with it personally. I just don't know how to explain it to others to where they understand the crucified life and the "if" verses and still have an assurance of eternal life.

[Christ's Free Servant]

bro Roberto

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Roberto,

Do me a favor. Go back through this post and read all the verses that have the words "if" or "providing" or any conditional words in them and then explain what they mean. If we don't have to do anything, then why are these verses and many more like them in the Bible? Why do we have the book of James? And, the book of First John? I John is filled with "if" verses.

We are not looking for OSAS verses here. We know those verses. What we are seeking is discussion on the "if" verses. We can not ignore them just because they don't fit our theology. We must honestly look at all scripture and be willing to seek God for an answer as to how we are to interpret those verses. I think most of them are quite plain. Salvation is a process that will not be completed until the time Christ returns. "IF" we continue in our faith, salvation is ours. But, if we don't, then... you fill in the blank based upon your understanding of the "if" verses.