Christians and drinking

[DWH2003]

@Fidei Defensor  

Again, you are defining a Bible term by modern usage.  Please read what Vine, Thayer and many other say about the definition for the Greek word "oinos".  Respectfully, you are simply incorrect in your definition and, therefore, your application.

 

@Still Alive

"...it's not about alcohol. It's about being drunk on alcohol:"

 

Why then is the very start of the process of intoxication forbidden in Eph 5:18?  And placed in opposition with being filled with the Holy Spirit?

Why then is even taking a sip classified as fleshly along with being half-drunk and flat out drunk in 1 Peter 4:3?

Why then does 1 Peter 4:7 literally mean to be *free* from the influence of intoxicants (sober)? 

How can this not be about alcohol, when alcohol is specifically addressed?

 

 

@Still Alive

"http://biblehub.com/lexicon/1_peter/4-7.htm

On a strongly related note, I don't think it meant what people think it meant in verse 8 either. "Near", from peter's perspective is long gone. "

 

Are you suggesting that the application of this verse was only for the short term?  Perhaps just in Peter's lifetime?  If so, I would ask why the "need" to limit it in this way?  Or, are you suggesting Peter was mistaken?

The word "near" is Strong 1448.  Vine defines it as "to bring near" and "to draw near" and "draw nigh".  Vine points out that this same word is translated as "approach", which means "to draw near, approach... of time, with reference to things that are imminent... nigh". Peter was not saying everything will end next week or next year or even in his life time.  He was saying it is *approaching*, it is imminent. It will come.

There is nothing about this that changes the application of what Peter forbids.  If anything, it makes it all the more relevant.  Christ is our example in staying away from sin (1 Pet. 4:1). The time past was enough time wasted in such behaviors (4:2), which include lustful behaviors, drinking alcohol to various degrees and even idolatry (4:3), for Judgment is coming (4:4-5).  In context, living "in the spirit" (4:7) means following what the Spirit says - i.e. stay away from these sinful behaviors which will bring a bad judgment!

In this context he elaborates, "But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore of sound mind, and be sober unto prayer:".  The end (of all earthly things) is approaching.  It is inescapable. It is imminent.  How should we behave then?  Sound mind. Sober. Not intoxicated. Praying.

 

@Still Alive

"...Chrisitanity is a 'spirit of the law' belief. The man made religions (many of which are Christian in general beliefs) tend to be letter of the law. Islam is the worst, telling you which foot to use when stepping into a room, when to pray, etc."

 

While the phrase "the spirit of the law" is Biblical, the application here is not accurate.  The phrase "the spirit of the law" is no where used to justify practicing or excusing sin.  It is used in the Bible as a contrast to the Old Law (which was revealed by God & written on tablets of stone) & identifies the New Law (which was revealed by God & written on the heart / spirit) (cp. 2 Cor.3:3; Romans 8).  These are not referring to man made anything, but a contrast between the Old & New Covenants.

 

Also, freedom in Christ is not to be used as an excuse for sin or a cloak of wickedness (1 Peter 2:16).  We are to be "slaves" to Him.  That is some serious respect that must be shown.  What happens when a slave doesn't do what His master says?  In similar fashion, if we love God, we will keep His commandments (John 14:15, 21; 15:10; 1 John 5:3).  Or as 1 John 2 says (emphasis added to highlight), 

"3 And hereby we know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.  4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoso keepeth his word, in him verily hath the love of God been perfected. Hereby we know that we are in him: 6 he that saith he abideth in him ought himself also to walk even as he walked."

 

 

I appreciate the time you've take to discuss this.  May the Lord bless us and fill our hearts with His truth.

 

Edited July 30, 2018 by DWH2003

[Dennis1209]

On 6/27/2018 at 8:24 PM, creativemechanic said:

maybe it's my denominational values but i never got.  why do some of us get defensive over  thr ability to do this activity?yeah drinking itself  isn't prohibited just  excess but thinking abt it, there's  no possible benefits only all negative  ( unless dr prescribed )

1 Timothy 5:23 (KJV) Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

I suspect a lot of the water might have been contaminated causing disease and sickness and the wine had a medicinal effect. It does not say if it was fermented or not, but based on other scripture I suspect it was 'strong drink'. 

True, I've found no scriptural prohibition not to consume alcohol, except in excess. Our Baptist doctrine is not to touch it period, of which I gladly comply. 

For decades one beer was good, two beers were great, and a case, well much better. It eventually lead to alcoholism and decades of bondage and morning hangovers. Not to mention the effects on employment, relationships and changes of personality. The temptation to drink 2, 3, ... is there, not to mention what an observer thinks of a Christian consuming alcohol. Please don't think I'm criticizing or judging anyone who drinks the occasional drink. My morbid motto was, "I feel sorry for the people who don't drink, when they get up in the morning that's the best they're going to feel all day."

I was an alcoholic for decades and felt the Holy Spirit working on my heart for a long time, but I resisted. One day almost two years ago I emotionally broke down and confessed everything and truly repented  to the Lord and asked His help and for a few things. One of my requests was to take the taste for alcohol out of my mouth. It's a long story but, almost immediately I had no craving or desire to ever touch alcohol again. I got no withdraw symptoms or anything, just inward peace and thankfulness. I didn't need Alcohol Anonymous (AA) or any secular support or treatment, just dependence and trust in the Lord. What a miracle, God is loving and good!

If I told you about my other two prayer requests that were answered, it would blow your mind. It did mine anyway.

[Fidei Defensor]

6 hours ago, DWH2003 said:

@Fidei Defensor  

Again, you are defining a Bible term by modern usage.  Please read what Vine, Thayer and many other say about the definition for the Greek word "oinos".  Respectfully, you are simply incorrect in your definition and, therefore, your application.

 

@Still Alive

"...it's not about alcohol. It's about being drunk on alcohol:"

 

Why then is the very start of the process of intoxication forbidden in Eph 5:18?  And placed in opposition with being filled with the Holy Spirit?

Why then is even taking a sip classified as fleshly along with being half-drunk and flat out drunk in 1 Peter 4:3?

Why then does 1 Peter 4:7 literally mean to be *free* from the influence of intoxicants (sober)? 

How can this not be about alcohol, when alcohol is specifically addressed?

 

 

@Still Alive

"http://biblehub.com/lexicon/1_peter/4-7.htm

On a strongly related note, I don't think it meant what people think it meant in verse 8 either. "Near", from peter's perspective is long gone. "

 

Are you suggesting that the application of this verse was only for the short term?  Perhaps just in Peter's lifetime?  If so, I would ask why the "need" to limit it in this way?  Or, are you suggesting Peter was mistaken?

The word "near" is Strong 1448.  Vine defines it as "to bring near" and "to draw near" and "draw nigh".  Vine points out that this same word is translated as "approach", which means "to draw near, approach... of time, with reference to things that are imminent... nigh". Peter was not saying everything will end next week or next year or even in his life time.  He was saying it is *approaching*, it is imminent. It will come.

There is nothing about this that changes the application of what Peter forbids.  If anything, it makes it all the more relevant.  Christ is our example in staying away from sin (1 Pet. 4:1). The time past was enough time wasted in such behaviors (4:2), which include lustful behaviors, drinking alcohol to various degrees and even idolatry (4:3), for Judgment is coming (4:4-5).  In context, living "in the spirit" (4:7) means following what the Spirit says - i.e. stay away from these sinful behaviors which will bring a bad judgment!

In this context he elaborates, "But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore of sound mind, and be sober unto prayer:".  The end (of all earthly things) is approaching.  It is inescapable. It is imminent.  How should we behave then?  Sound mind. Sober. Not intoxicated. Praying.

 

@Still Alive

"...Chrisitanity is a 'spirit of the law' belief. The man made religions (many of which are Christian in general beliefs) tend to be letter of the law. Islam is the worst, telling you which foot to use when stepping into a room, when to pray, etc."

 

While the phrase "the spirit of the law" is Biblical, the application here is not accurate.  The phrase "the spirit of the law" is no where used to justify practicing or excusing sin.  It is used in the Bible as a contrast to the Old Law (which was revealed by God & written on tablets of stone) & identifies the New Law (which was revealed by God & written on the heart / spirit) (cp. 2 Cor.3:3; Romans 8).  These are not referring to man made anything, but a contrast between the Old & New Covenants.

 

Also, freedom in Christ is not to be used as an excuse for sin or a cloak of wickedness (1 Peter 2:16).  We are to be "slaves" to Him.  That is some serious respect that must be shown.  What happens when a slave doesn't do what His master says?  In similar fashion, if we love God, we will keep His commandments (John 14:15, 21; 15:10; 1 John 5:3).  Or as 1 John 2 says (emphasis added to highlight), 

"3 And hereby we know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.  4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoso keepeth his word, in him verily hath the love of God been perfected. Hereby we know that we are in him: 6 he that saith he abideth in him ought himself also to walk even as he walked."

 

 

I appreciate the time you've take to discuss this.  May the Lord bless us and fill our hearts with His truth.

 

Why would Jesus turn water into grape juice at the Wedding at Cana? (John 2:1-12). You forget that in those time all the way to late Tenaissaince most people had to drink wine with alcohol (fermented) because the water had so much bacteria. 

Besides when Jesus turned the water to wine this is what the friend of Bridegroom said, “and said, "Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now.” (John 2:10). Besides why then did the Pharisees acuuse Jesus of being a winebubber if Hd did not drink if?, “For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.” (Matthew 11:18-19).

You know I don’t follow commentaries by Thayer, Darby, Tim Lehaye, R.C. Sproul, Lee Stroubel, Norman Giesler, or any other scholar (I dong need a Magestratium of Protestantism), I define Scripture by Scriptire not by the scholars and scribes of our Times who Jesus would rebuke like He did the scholars and top scribes of His Time: “Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, 3 so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice. 4 They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear,[a] and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger. 5 They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long, 6 and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues 7 and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbi by others. 8 But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers.9 And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. 10 Neither be called teachers or instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. 11 The greatest among you shall be your servant.12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted. 

13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in.

15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell[ as yourselves.” (Matthew 23:1-15). 

I have One Father in heaven (Matthew 23:9), One teacher Jesus Christ (Matthew 23:10) and One Spirit that reminds me of all they have said (John 14:26; John 15:26). I do not stand on commentaries and books of men teaching man made traditions, “You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men,” (Mark 7:9, cross re Colossians 2:23) but I stand on Scripture which is God breathed and Spirit inspired (2 Timothy 3:16, 2 Peter 1:20-21). 

——————-/-

if you must have s scholar then look up oines in Greek Lexicon by Sosthenes statss oines is “a wine that intoxicates.” 

Edited July 30, 2018 by Fidei Defensor

[DWH2003]

@Fidei Defensor

Hello. Hope your day is going well.

You asked why would Jesus turn water into grape juice at the Wedding at Cana? (John 2:1-12). Because He made the best tasting, freshest grape juice - which proved his power over nature and His good judgment in providing a large amount (120-180 gallons) of non-intoxicating drink.

 

You suggest that I forget that the water back then had a lot of bacteria.  I mentioned previously that Paul spoke to Timothy about this very subject (1 Tim. 5:23).  The pattern for "wine" use in Bible times was to dilute it in several parts water to one part wine.  A short list of the ratios mentioned historically and their sources follows:

3 to 1—Hesiod
4 to 1—Alexis
2 to 1—Diodes
3 to 1—Ion
5 to 2—Nichochares
2 to 1—Anacreon 

Sometimes the ratio goes down to 1 to 1 (and even lower), but it should be noted that such a mixture is referred to as “strong wine.” Drinking wine unmixed, on the other hand, was looked upon as a “Scythian” or barbarian custom. Athenaeus in this work quotes Mnesitheus of Athens to this effect. 

So, take fresh, sweet grape juice, dilute it in several parts water. That was the best "wine" (Gk oinos) in Bible times.  

 

As for what the Bridegroom said about the "best", I addressed this before.  I referenced quotes from Bible times where secular people identified the best wine as sweetest and with no intoxicating power.  Asserting modern values into the word is not proper exegesis (reading from the text).  That is eisegesis (reading into the text something that is not there).

 

 

As for what the Pharisees accused Jesus of, do you really think Jesus was a winebibber? If so, then to be consistent, you must take the rest of the accusations as true also.  Was Jesus gluttonous and a "friend" (in the sense of fellowshipping / participating/ approving) publicans & sinners?  Basically, they called Jesus a sinner! I doubt you accept this as a correct... so why accept the first accusation as correct?

 

 

Thayer is a very studiously prepared Greek Dictionary, with references to multiple passages where the same words are used.  In addition to actual Bible usage (Bible defining the Bible), he gives definitions and examines the actual usage of words in other sources from the same time period.  Even though he explains things, I still test his definitions by the places a word is used in the Bible.

Proverbs 20:18 Every purpose is established by counsel; And by wise guidance make thou war.

Human counselors can be wrong, but the Bible says there is wisdom in hearing counsel.  They can provoke us to think of things we missed... like the quotes of people contemporary with NT times who identify the "best" wine as sweet & non-intoxicating.  Or references to other passages that use the same Bible word.  In the case of "oinos", it can help disabuse us of modern perspectives that were not in use at that time.

 

If you define Scripture by Scripture, do you accept that "wine" in the Bible is also used for fresh grape juice (Isaiah 65:8), prior to fermentation (Matt. 9:17)?

 

Jesus rebuked the scribes & Pharisees for hypocrisy (Matt. 23:4, 13, 15) & pride (23:5-12).  They said, but did not do.  He condemned their disobedience & their corrupt hearts.  But what did Jesus say about their words?  Look again at Matthew 23:2-3.  Jesus said to observe what they tell you / preach.  Why would Jesus tell people to obey what the scribes & pharisees said?  Was Jesus encouraging people to obey error?

 

 

Certainly, men can teach contrary to Christ (Mark 7:9). How should we handle it?  Consider 1 Thess. 5:21-22, "prove all things; hold fast that which is good; abstain from every form of evil."  What does this involve?  Testing, examining, proving. Discerning between good and evil.  But if we don't study, how can we examine? Like the noble Boreans (Acts 17:11) as we listen to someone teach, we must examine the Scriptures to see whether what they said is in harmony with truth or not.  God praised them for this.  I have never said to blindly follow commentaries.  But I am saying, do not accept or dismiss another man's study without testing it first by the Scriptures.

Ok. I am sorry, but I have to point this out.  After pointedly saying that you reject commentaries as being traditions of men you then quote a commentary...  You wrote: "if you must have s scholar then look up oines in Greek Lexicon by Sosthenes statss oines is 'a wine that intoxicates.'"  You cannot have it both ways.  Either you totally reject commentaries as detracting from God's word, or you don't.

Also, do you have a link? I would like to examine the full definition / explanation you referenced and see it in context. When I searched, all I could find was "Sosthenes" defined by various Greek Lexicons, rather than a Lexicon by someone named Sosthenes.  And I am not familiar with the quote you referenced or the Lexicon by that person.  And, is that a typo "statss oines"? I tried searching it in lexicons I have and there was no match.  So I am unable to locate that phrase in the Bible.

Edited July 31, 2018 by DWH2003

[Fidei Defensor]

4 hours ago, DWH2003 said:

@Fidei Defensor

Hello. Hope your day is going well.

You asked why would Jesus turn water into grape juice at the Wedding at Cana? (John 2:1-12). Because He made the best tasting, freshest grape juice - which proved his power over nature and His good judgment in providing a large amount (120-180 gallons) of non-intoxicating drink.

 

You suggest that I forget that the water back then had a lot of bacteria.  I mentioned previously that Paul spoke to Timothy about this very subject (1 Tim. 5:23).  The pattern for "wine" use in Bible times was to dilute it in several parts water to one part wine.  A short list of the ratios mentioned historically and their sources follows:

3 to 1—Hesiod
4 to 1—Alexis
2 to 1—Diodes
3 to 1—Ion
5 to 2—Nichochares
2 to 1—Anacreon 

Sometimes the ratio goes down to 1 to 1 (and even lower), but it should be noted that such a mixture is referred to as “strong wine.” Drinking wine unmixed, on the other hand, was looked upon as a “Scythian” or barbarian custom. Athenaeus in this work quotes Mnesitheus of Athens to this effect. 

So, take fresh, sweet grape juice, dilute it in several parts water. That was the best "wine" (Gk oinos) in Bible times.  

 

As for what the Bridegroom said about the "best", I addressed this before.  I referenced quotes from Bible times where secular people identified the best wine as sweetest and with no intoxicating power.  Asserting modern values into the word is not proper exegesis (reading from the text).  That is eisegesis (reading into the text something that is not there).

 

 

As for what the Pharisees accused Jesus of, do you really think Jesus was a winebibber? If so, then to be consistent, you must take the rest of the accusations as true also.  Was Jesus gluttonous and a "friend" (in the sense of fellowshipping / participating/ approving) publicans & sinners?  Basically, they called Jesus a sinner! I doubt you accept this as a correct... so why accept the first accusation as correct?

 

 

Thayer is a very studiously prepared Greek Dictionary, with references to multiple passages where the same words are used.  In addition to actual Bible usage (Bible defining the Bible), he gives definitions and examines the actual usage of words in other sources from the same time period.  Even though he explains things, I still test his definitions by the places a word is used in the Bible.

Proverbs 20:18 Every purpose is established by counsel; And by wise guidance make thou war.

Human counselors can be wrong, but the Bible says there is wisdom in hearing counsel.  They can provoke us to think of things we missed... like the quotes of people contemporary with NT times who identify the "best" wine as sweet & non-intoxicating.  Or references to other passages that use the same Bible word.  In the case of "oinos", it can help disabuse us of modern perspectives that were not in use at that time.

 

If you define Scripture by Scripture, do you accept that "wine" in the Bible is also used for fresh grape juice (Isaiah 65:8), prior to fermentation (Matt. 9:17)?

 

Jesus rebuked the scribes & Pharisees for hypocrisy (Matt. 23:4, 13, 15) & pride (23:5-12).  They said, but did not do.  He condemned their disobedience & their corrupt hearts.  But what did Jesus say about their words?  Look again at Matthew 23:2-3.  Jesus said to observe what they tell you / preach.  Why would Jesus tell people to obey what the scribes & pharisees said?  Was Jesus encouraging people to obey error?

 

 

Certainly, men can teach contrary to Christ (Mark 7:9). How should we handle it?  Consider 1 Thess. 5:21-22, "prove all things; hold fast that which is good; abstain from every form of evil."  What does this involve?  Testing, examining, proving. Discerning between good and evil.  But if we don't study, how can we examine? Like the noble Boreans (Acts 17:11) as we listen to someone teach, we must examine the Scriptures to see whether what they said is in harmony with truth or not.  God praised them for this.  I have never said to blindly follow commentaries.  But I am saying, do not accept or dismiss another man's study without testing it first by the Scriptures.

Ok. I am sorry, but I have to point this out.  After pointedly saying that you reject commentaries as being traditions of men you then quote a commentary...  You wrote: "if you must have s scholar then look up oines in Greek Lexicon by Sosthenes statss oines is 'a wine that intoxicates.'"  You cannot have it both ways.  Either you totally reject commentaries as detracting from God's word, or you don't.

Also, do you have a link? I would like to examine the full definition / explanation you referenced and see it in context. When I searched, all I could find was "Sosthenes" defined by various Greek Lexicons, rather than a Lexicon by someone named Sosthenes.  And I am not familiar with the quote you referenced or the Lexicon by that person.  And, is that a typo "statss oines"? I tried searching it in lexicons I have and there was no match.  So I am unable to locate that phrase in the Bible.

If you want to believe it’s grape juice, that is your right, but if ignores the fact tht Jesus was called a wino or winebibber, “The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.”(Matthew 11:9). The Pharisees would never have called Jesus this over grape juice, it was fermented grapes known as wind”e. Besides why would Jesus refuse to drink grape juice until He Returns? He meant wine, “I tell you that I will not drink any more wine until God's kingdom comes." (Luke 22:18). Jesus would not have abstained from grape juice, but wine. 

Wine is made by God, to make the hearts of men glade, “And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart.” (Psalm 104:15). The feasts of the Old Testament had the Hebrews cutting loose. A real Passover has people drink four goblets of wines, goblets is like two full glasses, so eight total. God did this so they could have appointed times to enjoy wine in excess, but  not every day; the same was for weddings which lasted two weeks.

Now I believe in not getting drunk, “Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit,” (Ephesians 5:18) 

Here’s my stance, I abstain from wine but I do not make that conviction for other people when the Bible clearly says you may drink wine but don’t get drunk and be dependent on it for stress.  

Are you rep for Welch’s grape juice? ?

In the end we should strive to this:

”As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. 2 One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. 3 Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. 4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master[a] that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's.9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; 11 for it is written,

“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
    and every tongue shall confess[b] to God.”

12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

Do Not Cause Another to Stumble

13 Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. 14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. 15 For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died. 16 So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil.17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.

20 Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. 21 It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble.[c] 22 The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. 23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.” (Romans 14:1-23).

 

[DWH2003]

@Fidei Defensor

Fidei wrote:  "If you want to believe it’s grape juice, that is your right, but if ignores the fact tht Jesus was called a wino or winebibber, “The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.”(Matthew 11:9).

 

While we are able to believe anything, the only correct understanding is the one the Spirit of God intended.

So, based on what you affirm here - Jesus was actually a sinner.  Committing sin.  Participating in sin. Do you even realize what you are affirming?

----

Fidei wrote: "The Pharisees would never have called Jesus this over grape juice, it was fermented grapes known as wind”e. Besides why would Jesus refuse to drink grape juice until He Returns? He meant wine, “I tell you that I will not drink any more wine until God's kingdom comes." (Luke 22:18). Jesus would not have abstained from grape juice, but wine. 

 

I would suggest that you read Numbers 6:1-4.  A Nazarite vow covered abstaining not just from intoxicants, but also "neither shall he drink any juice of grapes, nor eat fresh grapes or dried."  I see no harm in fresh grapes or dried (i.e. raisins).  Yet that was exactly what this vow involved abstaining from, while dedicated to God.

Pharisees would not accuse over grape juice? That is precisely what Matt. 11:9 is. An accusation of abuse over non-intoxicating drink. Why? Numbers 6.

As for Luke 22:18, I do not know what version you are quoting from - but no reliable translation expresses this as "wine" here.  In the original Greek "oinos" (which is a generic word for grape juice to alcohol to vinegar) is not in this text.  In fact, no NT passage ever uses "oinos" in connection with the Lord's supper.  It is literally "the product of the grape vine" or "fruit of the vine" in Greek & English.  I would recommend checking Lexicons to verify this.

Textus Receptus example:

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/luk22.pdf

----

Fidei wrote:  "...(Psalm 104:15). The feasts of the Old Testament had the Hebrews cutting loose. A real Passover has people drink four goblets of wines, goblets is like two full glasses, so eight total. God did this so they could have appointed times to enjoy wine in excess, but  not every day; the same was for weddings which lasted two weeks."

Uhhhh... wow.  Did you just say God ordained feasts for them to enjoy wine in excess?  Do you not see the problem with your approach to this?  When your conclusion leads to God promoting ungodly behavior... it cannot be right.  Sir, beware lest you make God into Bacchus.

----

 

Fidei wrote:  "Now I believe in not getting drunk... (Ephesians 5:18) 

Here’s my stance, I abstain from wine but I do not make that conviction for other people when the Bible clearly says you may drink wine but don’t get drunk and be dependent on it for stress.  "

Your argument for the moderate/casual use of alcohol is belied by your arguments for out right voluminous & frequent & even mandated!! drinking.  You depict God as promoting drunkenness instead of solemn feasts/memorials, and Jesus requiring it in the Lord's Supper, and as his first miracle providing it in large quantities to people already well involved! And more... you would validate the Pharisees charge of sin.

Do you not see even a little bit of a problem with what you are proposing?

----

Fidei wrote:  "Are you rep for Welch’s grape juice? ?"

No.  I do like Welch's, though.  They do seem to make the best.  A sweet, healthy & innocent drink. Truly a gift from God that brings joy & gladness to mankind.

With no intention to offend, I genuinely ask - Are a Budweiser rep?  Would Jesus approve of being a Budweiser rep?

----

Fideo wrote:  "In the end we should strive to this:..." then you quote Romans 14:1-23.

 

For a practice to fit in Romans 14, it must first be proven that it is in "the faith" (Romans 14:1); that one can practice it or not and be equally right with God (14:2-3); that God will received the practitioner (14:3); that it can be practiced unto the Lord (14:6); that it is in the category of what God calls clean (14:14, 20) & good (14:16).

Your arguments would have God requiring regular drinking in the Lord's Supper & even approving of consuming large quantities at weddings & feasts.

Think about it:  If God *requires* alcohol in the Lord's Supper, can one equally practice it or not and be right with God (Romans 14:2-3)?  No.

Can one practice intoxication (whether slight or much!) unto the Lord?  No (Eph. 5:18; 1 Pet. 4:7).

Is intoxication clean & good?  How can it be when God condemns being under the influence (1 Pet. 4:7) and even *beginning* the process of intoxication (Eph. 5:18)?

Romans 14 demands toleration in areas of authorized liberty.  If what you have proposed in the previous arguments is true, then not only casual drinking is to be tolerated, but is required (Lord's Supper) and out right drunkenness is encouraged by God & Jesus on multiple occasions. 

We cannot correctly place something in Romans 14 that is plainly condemned by God.

Edited August 6, 2018 by DWH2003

[enoob57]

It's was probably Jesus's preference for new wine because as mentioned He enjoyed drinking it and drunkenness was unacceptable to anyone of that time... it was a social no no to be drunk! Seeing how His Life was one of perfection and was so with perfect care even to the very weak

Matt 12:20

20 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.
KJV
 

[Fidei Defensor]

5 hours ago, DWH2003 said:

@Fidei Defensor

Fidei wrote:  "If you want to believe it’s grape juice, that is your right, but if ignores the fact tht Jesus was called a wino or winebibber, “The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.”(Matthew 11:9).

 

While we are able to believe anything, the only correct understanding is the one the Spirit of God intended.

So, based on what you affirm here - Jesus was actually a sinner.  Committing sin.  Participating in sin. Do you even realize what you are affirming?

----

Fidei wrote: "The Pharisees would never have called Jesus this over grape juice, it was fermented grapes known as wind”e. Besides why would Jesus refuse to drink grape juice until He Returns? He meant wine, “I tell you that I will not drink any more wine until God's kingdom comes." (Luke 22:18). Jesus would not have abstained from grape juice, but wine. 

 

I would suggest that you read Numbers 6:1-4.  A Nazarite vow covered abstaining not just from intoxicants, but also "neither shall he drink any juice of grapes, nor eat fresh grapes or dried."  I see no harm in fresh grapes or dried (i.e. raisins).  Yet that was exactly what this vow involved abstaining from, while dedicated to God.

Pharisees would not accuse over grape juice? That is precisely what Matt. 11:9 is. An accusation of abuse over non-intoxicating drink. Why? Numbers 6.

As for Luke 22:18, I do not know what version you are quoting from - but no reliable translation expresses this as "wine" here.  In the original Greek "oinos" (which is a generic word for grape juice to alcohol to vinegar) is not in this text.  In fact, no NT passage ever uses "oinos" in connection with the Lord's supper.  It is literally "the product of the grape vine" or "fruit of the vine" in Greek & English.  I would recommend checking Lexicons to verify this.

Textus Receptus example:

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/luk22.pdf

----

Fidei wrote:  "...(Psalm 104:15). The feasts of the Old Testament had the Hebrews cutting loose. A real Passover has people drink four goblets of wines, goblets is like two full glasses, so eight total. God did this so they could have appointed times to enjoy wine in excess, but  not every day; the same was for weddings which lasted two weeks."

Uhhhh... wow.  Did you just say God ordained feasts for them to enjoy wine in excess?  Do you not see the problem with your approach to this?  When your conclusion leads to God promoting ungodly behavior... it cannot be right.  Sir, beware lest you make God into Bacchus.

----

 

Fidei wrote:  "Now I believe in not getting drunk... (Ephesians 5:18) 

Here’s my stance, I abstain from wine but I do not make that conviction for other people when the Bible clearly says you may drink wine but don’t get drunk and be dependent on it for stress.  "

Your argument for the moderate/casual use of alcohol is belied by your arguments for out right voluminous & frequent & even mandated!! drinking.  You depict God as promoting drunkenness instead of solemn feasts/memorials, and Jesus requiring it in the Lord's Supper, and as his first miracle providing it in large quantities to people already well involved! And more... you would validate the Pharisees charge of sin.

Do you not see even a little bit of a problem with what you are proposing?

----

Fidei wrote:  "Are you rep for Welch’s grape juice? ?"

No.  I do like Welch's, though.  They do seem to make the best.  A sweet, healthy & innocent drink. Truly a gift from God that brings joy & gladness to mankind.

With no intention to offend, I genuinely ask - Are a Budweiser rep?  Would Jesus approve of being a Budweiser rep?

----

Fideo wrote:  "In the end we should strive to this:..." then you quote Romans 14:1-23.

 

For a practice to fit in Romans 14, it must first be proven that it is in "the faith" (Romans 14:1); that one can practice it or not and be equally right with God (14:2-3); that God will received the practitioner (14:3); that it can be practiced unto the Lord (14:6); that it is in the category of what God calls clean (14:14, 20) & good (14:16).

Your arguments would have God requiring regular drinking in the Lord's Supper & even approving of consuming large quantities at weddings & feasts.

Think about it:  If God *requires* alcohol in the Lord's Supper, can one equally practice it or not and be right with God (Romans 14:2-3)?  No.

Can one practice intoxication (whether slight or much!) unto the Lord?  No (Eph. 5:18; 1 Pet. 4:7).

Is intoxication clean & good?  How can it be when God condemns being under the influence (1 Pet. 4:7) and even *beginning* the process of intoxication (Eph. 5:18)?

Romans 14 demands toleration in areas of authorized liberty.  If what you have proposed in the previous arguments is true, then not only casual drinking is to be tolerated, but is required (Lord's Supper) and out right drunkenness is encouraged by God & Jesus on multiple occasions. 

We cannot correctly place something in Romans 14 that is plainly condemned by God.

I did not assert Jesus is a sinner. I simply provided proof that he drank wine, and that His enemies, the Pharisees, accused Him of being a winebibber. Jesus did not drink to excess or drunkenness, He never sinned (1 Peter 2:22), though He bore our sins (1 Peter 2:24). Wine was common drink in that age and has medicinal properties and sanitizes. Jesus was able to drink wine and not get drunk. 

Jesus was a Nazarene not a Nazarite. A Nazarene is from Nazareth, a Nazarite following an ascetic vow and can be temporary orcpermently a Nazarite. Jesus was not of any of the sects, He was against Pharisees (Matthew 23, whole chapter), He was against the Zealots (John 6:15-15), He was against  Sadducess (Matthew 22:23-34), He was against the Essenes who had secret vows and rites (John 18:20), and He was against the Nazarite Ascetics by saying a Sergent is better than the best ascetic John the Baptist (Matthew 11:11) and simply by the fact that He made His blood and death enough (Romans 5:4-11, John 6:40). The only sect Jesus was part of was New, The Way and The Church which He made (Matthew 16:8, John 14:6). Jesus we not for any sect of Judaism, He confronted them all because all of them had fallen short of God and were of the letter of the law not the spirit (2 Corinthians 3:4-6). The Jews had turned the Law of Moses and keeping it into god, instead of marriage vows and how to have respectful relationship with God, they did this at first in Exodus 20. They chose not to connect with God, and then many (nlt all) did the same again when God cams close to them in the flesh as Jesus Christ. 

As for cutting loose at feats. If Hod ordains it is it sin? Is God not good? (). Are you like Job questioning Him? God let the Israelites drink and bench eddy at the feasts celebrating what God has done for them. Celebration and the wedding feast is different from a man going to pub and getting drunk all day: just as having sex with your wife in the covering of matrimony is different than going out and fornicating. After all Jesus is our husband and Bridegroom (Revelation 19:7-9, Mark 2:18-20, Hosea 2:16). 

I am arguing that you can abstain or enjoy wine (not to excess). I do not make rules for God’s People. I speak as Paul did:

Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. 2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.7 For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for ourselves alone. 8 If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister[a]? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11 It is written:

“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
    every tongue will acknowledge God.’”[b]

12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God.

13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister. 14 I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean. 15 If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy someone for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let what you know is good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking,but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.

19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food.All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother or sister to fall.

22 So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.” (Romans 14:1-23)

 

[warrior12]

On 7/30/2018 at 9:19 AM, Dennis1209 said:

For decades one beer was good, two beers were great, and a case, well much better. It eventually lead to alcoholism and decades of bondage and morning hangovers.

Yep, see your point.  I was on the verge of what I would think of becoming an alcoholic if my own assessment is correct.  Can you control that beast. Think many thought so and later on the misery she dishes out.  seventeen years free from that obnoxious situation is a blessing indeed.  As said, very few can taste her intoxication and resist her further intentions.  Why take chances on a beast that is bent on destruction as historical facts are plain for everyone to see. Flee it I say and let your spirit be free from her temptations. My friends who I play soccer with have a few beers after they play and is always offering me a bottle. It is not them per say, but that old dragon, who wants the old man back.  

This one, you have to take the bull by its horn as the saying goes, off course with prayer and supplication.

"to take the bull by the horns"

to manage a situation or problem using strength and determination;

to take charge of a situation, usually forcefully and with vigor, often with the accompanying responsibility

[Dennis1209]

1 hour ago, warrior12 said:

Yep, see your point.  I was on the verge of what I would think of becoming an alcoholic if my own assessment is correct.  Can you control that beast. Think many thought so and later on the misery she dishes out.  seventeen years free from that obnoxious situation is a blessing indeed.  As said, very few can taste her intoxication and resist her further intentions.  Why take chances on a beast that is bent on destruction as historical facts are plain for everyone to see. Flee it I say and let your spirit be free from her temptations. My friends who I play soccer with have a few beers after they play and is always offering me a bottle. It is not them per say, but that old dragon, who wants the old man back.  

This one, you have to take the bull by its horn as the saying goes, off course with prayer and supplication.

"to take the bull by the horns"

to manage a situation or problem using strength and determination;

to take charge of a situation, usually forcefully and with vigor, often with the accompanying responsibility

As the saying goes, "you always lose with Mr. Booze."