Genesis 6:3

[Retrobyter]

On 8/16/2018 at 11:45 PM, enoob57 said:

I see reiteration due to sin entering into God's creative acts... Gen 1 God's creation of perfection with Gen 2:1-3 God's proclaiming such perfection by activity of God Himself in sanctifying said creation with exclamatory 'Good'... Gen 2:4 - 3 then reiteration of said creation now with lucifer fallen and 1/3 of the angels...  Evil has not existed till satan originated lie that is why there now was a tree of knowledge of good and evil. Now exist prohibition with lie present now with truth... this is the written structure of the historical account. We simply follow the narrative as God wrote it- neither adding or taking away from that structured narrative... The same with the flow in Gen 5 through 6...

Shalom, enoob57.

No, Genesis 2 is a telescoping of Genesis 1's account of the sixth day, zooming in on the events of Day 6 in the Creation week. They are both talking about the ONE creation of mankind, bound within the genetics of Adam - both the man and his wife.

[enoob57]

18 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, enoob57.

No, Genesis 2 is a telescoping of Genesis 1's account of the sixth day, zooming in on the events of Day 6 in the Creation week. They are both talking about the ONE creation of mankind, bound within the genetics of Adam - both the man and his wife.

Your only problem is the tree of knowledge of good and evil is present! There was no evil before Lucifer fell. God in no way sanctifies evil thus it cannot be a telescoping as you present.

Edited August 20, 2018 by enoob57

[Retrobyter]

14 hours ago, enoob57 said:

Your only problem is the tree of knowledge of good and evil is present! There was no evil before Lucifer fell. God in no way sanctifies evil thus it cannot be a telescoping as you present.

Shalom, enoob57.

Actually, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil WAS present in chapter 1; it was just not specified from among the other trees:

Genesis 1:9-13 (KJV)

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land "Earth"; and the gathering together of the waters called he "Seas": and God saw that it was good. 11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

Furthermore, there was nothing wrong with the tree itself. God had concluded that it ALL was good. It was simply a particular kind of fruit tree. What made it different from all the rest was that it was individual enough to be easily recognized, and it was the ONLY tree upon which God set a limitation. He told them, "DON'T EAT FROM IT!" So, what did they do? Regardless how they got there, they CHOSE to EAT FROM IT! They CHOSE to DISOBEY GOD!

Adam's and Eve's sin was NOT in partaking of the tree! It was in DISOBEYING GOD!

Now, when you say, "There was no evil before Lucifer fell," you are simply reiterating someone's idea based on an interpretation of a single passage of Scripture through the sieve of theology - a man's study of God based on the interpretation of Scripture - rather than the Scripture itself. Theology is the name for the whole branch of philosophy that deals with a system of interpretation. The specific branch is called satanology (a sub-branch of angelology) - the study of Satan and his origin, a sub-branch of the study of angels (both good and bad).

Taken from ONE Scripture verse (and compared to a couple of others), one may arrive at this interpretation for this verse:

Isaiah 14:12 (KJV)

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 

assuming that "Lucifer" refers to haSatan (Hebrew for "the Enemy"). The Scriptures themselves do NOT say "there was no evil before Lucifer fell!"

But those who camp on this verse neglect to read the REST of the prophecy! Just a few verses before it, we read...

Isaiah 14:1-4 (KJV)

1 For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob. 2 And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.

3 And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,

4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

Don't resort to theology - the ideas of men; stick to the Scriptures - the actual Word of God! The villian in Genesis 3 is NOT "Lucifer"; the villian was the SERPENT!

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, again, enoob57.

And, just to clarify matters, it was the SERPENT who, being the villian, is haSatan, "the Enemy."

Furthermore, this is supported in two places within Revelation:

Revelation 12:7-12 (KJV)

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent (original snake), called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels (Greek: aggeloi = "messengers") were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

and

Revelation 20:1-3 (KJV)

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent (original snake), which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

[enoob57]

8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, enoob57.

Actually, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil WAS present in chapter 1; it was just not specified from among the other trees:

Genesis 1:9-13 (KJV)

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land "Earth"; and the gathering together of the waters called he "Seas": and God saw that it was good. 11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

Furthermore, there was nothing wrong with the tree itself. God had concluded that it ALL was good. It was simply a particular kind of fruit tree. What made it different from all the rest was that it was individual enough to be easily recognized, and it was the ONLY tree upon which God set a limitation. He told them, "DON'T EAT FROM IT!" So, what did they do? Regardless how they got there, they CHOSE to EAT FROM IT! They CHOSE to DISOBEY GOD!

Adam's and Eve's sin was NOT in partaking of the tree! It was in DISOBEYING GOD!

Now, when you say, "There was no evil before Lucifer fell," you are simply reiterating someone's idea based on an interpretation of a single passage of Scripture through the sieve of theology - a man's study of God based on the interpretation of Scripture - rather than the Scripture itself. Theology is the name for the whole branch of philosophy that deals with a system of interpretation. The specific branch is called satanology (a sub-branch of angelology) - the study of Satan and his origin, a sub-branch of the study of angels (both good and bad).

Taken from ONE Scripture verse (and compared to a couple of others), one may arrive at this interpretation for this verse:

Isaiah 14:12 (KJV)

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 

assuming that "Lucifer" refers to haSatan (Hebrew for "the Enemy"). The Scriptures themselves do NOT say "there was no evil before Lucifer fell!"

But those who camp on this verse neglect to read the REST of the prophecy! Just a few verses before it, we read...

Isaiah 14:1-4 (KJV)

1 For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob. 2 And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.

3 And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,

4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

Don't resort to theology - the ideas of men; stick to the Scriptures - the actual Word of God! The villian in Genesis 3 is NOT "Lucifer"; the villian was the SERPENT!

This is not in Scripture and your imagination is all that supports your claim... this is disobedience to The Scripturtes here

Genesis 1:12 (KJV)

¹²And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed wasin itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 
no where in Scripture will you have evil being called good by God!

2 Corinthians 10:5 (KJV)

⁵Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

[Retrobyter]

33 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

This is not in Scripture and your imagination is all that supports your claim... this is disobedience to The Scriptures here

Genesis 1:12 (KJV)

¹²And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed wasin itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 
no where in Scripture will you have evil being called good by God!

2 Corinthians 10:5 (KJV)

⁵Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Shalom, enoob.

Better than YOUR imagination that there were TWO Creations! Chapter 2 gets into the details of Day 6. First, one has...

Genesis 1:24-31 (KJV)

24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. 29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. 31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

So, when we get to chapter 2, this is the expansion of that sixth day:

Genesis 2:4-25 (KJV)

4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, 5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. (On Day 3.) 6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (This is how the creation of man began on Day 6, "God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him." Gen. 1:27a)

8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden (on Day 3); and there he put the man whom he had formed. (on Day 6.)
9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. (Refers back to Day 3.)

10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads. 11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold; 12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone. 13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia. 14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.

15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. 19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field (earlier on Day 6), and every fowl of the air (on Day 5); and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them (later on Day 6): and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. 20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help (a companion) meet (suitable) for him.

21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man (on Day 6).

23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman (Hebrew: Ishah), because she was taken out of Man (Hebrew: Iysh).

24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. 25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

(These last few verses, 23 to 25, shows how "male and female created He them." Gen. 1:27b.)

That's how chapter 2 is an expansion - a telescoping - of chapter 1.

[enoob57]

8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, enoob.

Better than YOUR imagination that there were TWO Creations! Chapter 2 gets into the details of Day 6. First, one has...

I see you have trouble in interpreting written material... I never said anything about 2 creations! So you will understand by your inability to frame what I wrote this third post is difficult for me to even write cause whats the use right... all you will do is go away with something I did not write as though I did... but I will once more communicate the Biblical intent of Gen 1 and 2:
Gen 1 is the creation event the only one...

Gen 1:31-2:3

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

2 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
KJV

noting first 1:31b "every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good." Satan hadn't fallen yet! How do I know this because of the following:

2 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. This is an all inclusive statement of all God made including angels...

2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.   Again a reaffirming of all God had made!
 

 After this point and only after this point could satan have fallen or else you have God blessing evil AND that is not possible for God cursed it Gen 3.
So chapter two is reiteration of the creation because now you have evil present in the creation of God... God focus is upon how woman came about for that is where satan attacks and overcomes man with sin...

Edited August 22, 2018 by enoob57

[Retrobyter]

On 8/22/2018 at 8:26 AM, enoob57 said:

I see you have trouble in interpreting written material... I never said anything about 2 creations! So you will understand by your inability to frame what I wrote this third post is difficult for me to even write cause whats the use right... all you will do is go away with something I did not write as though I did... but I will once more communicate the Biblical intent of Gen 1 and 2:
Gen 1 is the creation event the only one...

Gen 1:31-2:3

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

2 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
KJV

noting first 1:31b "every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good." Satan hadn't fallen yet! How do I know this because of the following:

2 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. This is an all inclusive statement of all God made including angels...

2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.   Again a reaffirming of all God had made!
 

 After this point and only after this point could satan have fallen or else you have God blessing evil AND that is not possible for God cursed it Gen 3.
So chapter two is reiteration of the creation because now you have evil present in the creation of God... God focus is upon how woman came about for that is where satan attacks and overcomes man with sin...

Shabbat shalom, enoob57.

Okay, I owe you an apology. I truly am sorry. I thought you were referring to a gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 in which some on this forum have claimed that haSatan fell between a supposed first Creation and the "second" Creation reported in the rest of Genesis 1. 

Having explained your position, I agree with you (up to a point)! Genesis 1 and 2 had no sin. It wasn't until Genesis 3 that sin was introduced. However, sin wasn't introduced with the creation of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil or with the forming of the woman. God just gave the tree a name that was both ironic and prophetic.

See, before Adam and Eve ate of the tree, they had no knowledge of evil because they were good just like God was good. There was no contrast. HOWEVER, AFTER they ate of the tree, they NOW had such knowledge: God was good, and they were evil, because they disobeyed God in eating from the tree. Again, there was NOTHING inherently evil about the tree or the woman. It was like Paul said,

Romans 7:7-13 (KJV)

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

We could make the substitutions: Is the law ("Thou shalt not eat of it") sin? God forbid. Nay, Adam had not known disobedience, except the law had said, "Thou shalt not eat of it." But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in Adam all manner of concupiscence. For without (outside) the commandment, sin was dead. For Adam was alive without (outside) the commandment once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and Adam (the man and the woman formed from the man) died. And the commandment ("Thou shalt not eat of it"), which was ordained to life (eventually eating from the tree of life), Adam found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment ("Thou shalt not eat of it"), deceived them, and by it slew them. Wherefore the law ("Thou shalt not eat of it") is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

The sin was not the tree, nor was it in the woman that was formed. She was a "help" (a companion) that was "meet" (fitting) for the man. Notice the plural in the ending of Genesis 1:27. This is how we know that Genesis 2 is an expansion of Genesis 1, Day 6:

Genesis 1:26-28 (KJV)

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

And, it was AFTER this that the Scriptures say,

Genesis 1:31 (KJV)

31 And God saw every thing (including the woman, the tree, and the serpent) that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

 The sin was in the disobedience to God's commandment, which doesn't happen until Genesis 3:6, which happened some time after the first week, that is, after the six days of Creation and after the first Shabbat.

Regarding the serpent, we are told...

Genesis 3:1 (KJV)

1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.

The Hebrew word is `aaruwm: listed as OT:6175 in Strong's Concordance's Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary:

6175 `aaruwm (aw-room'). Passive participle of `aaram; cunning (usually in a bad sense) -- crafty, prudent, subtil.

6191 `aaram (aw-ram'). A primitive root; properly, to be (or make) bare; but used only in the derived sense (through the idea perhaps of smoothness) to be cunning (usually in a bad sense) -- X very, beware, take crafty (counsel), be prudent, deal subtilly.

The word is exactly like...

6192 `aaram (aw-ram'). A primitive root; to pile up: -- gather together.

A similar word, another derivative from `aaram, is...

6193 `orem (o'-rem). from 6191; a stratagem: -- craftiness.

All these words are spelled `ayin-reish-mem (`-R-M), with different vowel sounds added between them. The typical vowels added for the verb form, the root form, is "-qaamets-patach-" (-aa-a-). The passive participle changes the patach to a shureq (-uw-) which adds the vav (w). And, changing the vowels to the "-cholem-segol-" (-o-e-) makes it an abstract noun.

Therefore, in addition to "crafty, prudent, subtil" for `aaruwm, which are words we seldom use anymore, we could add "strategic" and "shrewd."

To understand the verb better, think of a whittler pealing the bark off of a stick: He is "making" the stick "bare" and "smooth" and "piling up" the bark below his work. Depending on his intentions for the wood, he is "cunning" and "crafty," forming the whittled wood into a piece of art or a tool he might use. He is "subtil" following the Latin spelling (subtilis), or as we write it today "subtle."

My dictionary describes "subtle" to mean...

subtle | ˈsədl | 

adjective (subtler, subtlest) 

(especially of a change or distinction) so delicate or precise as to be difficult to analyze or describe: his language expresses rich and subtle meanings. 

• (of a mixture or effect) delicately complex and understated: subtle lighting. 

• making use of clever and indirect methods to achieve something: he tried a more subtle approach. 

• capable of making fine distinctions: a subtle mind. 

• arranged in an ingenious and elaborate way. 

• archaic crafty; cunning.

It defines "strategic" to mean...

strategic | strəˈtējik | 

adjective 

relating to the identification of long-term or overall aims and interests and the means of achieving them: the company should take strategic actions to cope with fundamental changes in the environment | strategic planning for the organization is the responsibility of top management. 

• carefully designed or planned to serve a particular purpose or advantage: alarms are positioned at strategic points around the prison. 

• relating to the gaining of overall or long-term military advantage: New Orleans was of strategic importance | a hazard to British strategic and commercial interests. 

• (of human or material resources) essential in fighting a war: the strategic forces on Russian territory. 

• (of bombing or weapons) done or for use against industrial areas and communication centers of enemy territory as a long-term military objective: strategic nuclear missiles. Often contrasted with tactical.

That the serpent was named "haSatan" meaning "the Enemy," it's not out of character to say he was strategic.

We are NOT told in Genesis that he was an "angel" (Hebrew: mal'akh, a word meaning "messenger" often used of GOD'S messengers), a word that was used later for Jacob's greeters in Genesis 32:1 at "Two Camps" or "Machanayim." The reason this word is in the dual is because it describes GOD'S messengers and his own messengers (mal'akhiym) that he sent ahead of him to Esav (Esau), his brother (Gen. 32:3-4) - two camps.

We're also not told that either he WAS a "spiritual creature," or that he was POSSESSED by a "spiritual creature." That is added PURELY from one's theological reasoning. It could have been simply that he was an intelligent animal that had his OWN motives for dethroning Adam, since ... 

Genesis 1:28 (KJV)

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

And, in Genesis 3:1 we read, "the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made," one of the three divisions of land creatures (cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth, Gen. 1:24-25) God made on Day 6.

Just something to consider.

[enoob57]

34 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Having explained your position, I agree with you (up to a point)! Genesis 1 and 2 had no sin. It wasn't until Genesis 3 that sin was introduced. However, sin wasn't introduced with the creation of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil or with the forming of the woman. God just gave the tree a name that was both ironic and prophetic

Creation is representative of God's Persons Rom 1:18-22 and there was no existence of evil even in thought till lucifer took his eyes of the purpose of himself in the creation of God and considered his self to pursue being god hence evil began in lie internally within his own will and being... This is why Genesis 2 is reiteration of creation with satan now fallen and evil is now within the creation of God through lie and the tree is representative of this reality... God did not prophecy of or want evil for it has nothing of God but is formed in lie to even exist... evil is not a created substance for lucifer was as God created him

Ezek 28:13-16

13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
KJV
 

34 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

See, before Adam and Eve ate of the tree, they had no knowledge of evil because they were good just like God was good. There was no contrast. HOWEVER, AFTER they ate of the tree, they NOW had such knowledge: God was good, and they were evil, because they disobeyed God in eating from the tree. Again, there was NOTHING inherently evil about the tree or the woman. It was like Paul said,

There was for eternity no such thing as evil until lucifer formed the lie within himself... there was nothing inherently evil in any  of God's creation including satan for you have the sanctification of it in Gen 2:1-3

Gen 2:1-3

2 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
KJV
 

 

 

Edited August 25, 2018 by enoob57

[Retrobyter]

9 hours ago, enoob57 said:

Creation is representative of God's Persons Rom 1:18-22 and there was no existence of evil even in thought till lucifer took his eyes of the purpose of himself in the creation of God and considered his self to pursue being god hence evil began in lie internally within his own will and being... This is why Genesis 2 is reiteration of creation with satan now fallen and evil is now within the creation of God through lie and the tree is representative of this reality... God did not prophecy of or want evil for it has nothing of God but is formed in lie to even exist... evil is not a created substance for lucifer was as God created him

Ezek 28:13-16

13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
KJV
 

There was for eternity no such thing as evil until lucifer formed the lie within himself... there was nothing inherently evil in any  of God's creation including satan for you have the sanctification of it in Gen 2:1-3

Gen 2:1-3

1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
KJV

Shalom, enoob57.

Well, if that story works for you, then fine for you. But, you're doing it again with Ezekiel 28 now, instead of Isaiah 14. LOOK AT THE WHOLE CHAPTER!

Ezekiel 28:1-9 (KJV)

1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
2 "Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus (TYRE), 'Thus saith the Lord GOD; <<Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, "I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas"; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God: 3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee: 4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures: 5 By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:>>
6 'Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; <<Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; 7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. 8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas. 9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, "I am God"? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee....>>'"

Again, I warn you, DON'T SWALLOW THE "BLUE PILL" OF THEOLOGY! Stick to the Word of God, even when it seems that you are taking the "red pill!"