If... Continued

[EricH]

Here is my take on Romans 11:17-24

The context of this passage needs to be understood in the larger context of Romans 8 - 12

In Romans 8 Paul outlined what it means to be in Christ. He concludes the chapter by addressing some questions that might come up:

1. When we experience negative circumstances how should we understand our relationship to God? Pauls answer is:

"And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose"

Romans 8:28 NASB

In other words God's sovereignty can be trusted in the life of the believer even in the midst of terrible circumstances

2. What if anything can remove us from being in Christ? Paul's answer is:

"Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? For I am convinced that at neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Romans 8:35a, 38-39 NASB

In other words, nothing in creation can separate those in Christ from God.

In Romans 9 Paul now begins to deal with the next logical question. If God's sovereignty keeps us in Christ, what happened to Israel. Why didn't His sovereignty extend to them as well?

Paul begins in 9:1-7 to define who the true Israel really is. Namely it is not those who are simply descended from Abraham, but those who are children of the promise. He defines the children of promise in verses 8-11 not as physical decendants, but as those who respond in faith to God's call. Paul's conclusion is that it does not depend on anything that man does, but on God's mercy (9:16)

Paul now anticipates an objection by people, namely how can God then hold us accountable? If it is up to His call why are we held accountable (9:17-19)? Paul's answer is that God does not have to answer to us for how He decides to exercise His mercy.

In fact, Paul states that the reason the gentiles have now been included in the people of God, is God's mercy. He summarizes by saying that the Jewish nation missed out because they did not pursue Him in faith, but by trying to obey the law. The gentiles on the other hand obtained righteousness with God, not because they obeyed the law, but because they came in faith (9:30-32). They came in the exact same manner as Abraham, by faith (Genesis 15:6)

Clearly Paul is addressing a national issue here. Why were the Jews as a people exluded, and the gentiles as a people included?

In Romans 10 Paul now begins the process of explaining how people are brought into Christ. Pauls desire is that his bretheren according to the flesh (Israel) experience the blessedness of being in Christ that he just described (10:1). He continues that if you were looking at outward appearances the nation of Israel had a great zeal for God, but that it was misguided in that it depended on obeying the law to save them (10:1-8). The only way to be in Christ, according to Paul, is through belief and confession (10:9-12).

That is why, according to Paul, witnessing is so important. People cannot respond in faith, unless they hear (10:13-21). And they need to hear because it is only through faith they will enter.

In Romans 11 Paul now begins to deal with what will happen to the nation of Isreal. Has God rejected the nation? Pauls says no (11:1-6) In fact, Paul says there is a remnant of Jews that have entered by faith and are in fact in Christ in spite of the fact that most have not (11:7-10)

Why has this happened? Paul indicates that God allowed the Jewish nation to fall away so that He could being the Gentiles into Christ (11:11) This is in keeping with His promise to Abraham that through him all nations would be blessed. Paul also indicates that God is not done with the Hebrew nation, but will continue to deal with them until they enter into Christ through faith (11:12-16)

Paul now turns his attention to the gentile people group warning them not to get arrogant like the Jewish nation and think that God has grafted them in because of something about them (like the Jewish nation did trusting in their national heritage rather than in faith like their father Abraham)

If the gentiles as a people group, begin to think that there being in Christ is a result of anything but faith, God can move to a new people, just as He did moving from Israel to the gentiles. Notice he tells them to stand in their faith (11:20)

Next Paul explains the Israel's partial hardening is not permanent, but that God will finish dealing with them. Just as the gentiles were once disobedient and have now been shown mercy, Israel is now disobedient and will be shown mercy (11:25-36)

So the context of our passage is clearly Paul's explanation of how the nation of Isreal was partially removed from being the vehicle through whom God chose to work. They did not follow their father Abraham in faith, but rather chose trying to keep that law, and trusting in their national heritage. In the same way the gentiles are warned as a people, that they will be cut off as a people group if they choose a way other than faith.

In Romans 12 and following Paul now begins to describe the role of obedience (worship Romans 12:1-2) and the implications of that obedience in the lives of the individual believer in Christ as a result of there being grafted into the vine that is the people of God. He describes the reason and motivation for obedience (Romans 12), the role of obedience in relation to the governments (Romans 13), Issues of conscience (Romans 14)and principle of self denial and service (Romans 15).

In summary, Romans 11:17-24 is discussion on how the Jweish nation lost their chosen status and the importance of the Gentile peoples not repeating that mistake. It is not a discussion on how the individual believer can be removed from Christ. Paul has made that impossible based on what he said in Romans 8 and 9 regarding God's soveriegnty in His choice of individuals.

Whew

Edited May 8, 2005 by pastoreric

[dgolvach]

"For anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13 NLT)

Thats "WILL be saved"

[johnnyc]

Salvation is free, but the upkeep is expensive.

It will cost us our old nature. (Eph. 4:22).

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me.

1John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

The born again life must be manifested in our daily thoughts, words, and deeds. It has to be more than lip service. We don't want Jesus to say, "I never knew you: depart from Me,..." (Matt 7:23).

[jc49]

TO WRAP IT UP part 1

I will use this link hoping to help

God bless

http://www.comereason.org/theo_issues/theo010.asp

Can You Lose Your Salvation?

Hello Lenny. My name is Jenny Gustavson. I am seventeen years old. My family just got on-line, so I decided to do a little exploration and searched Christianity. Here's a question that was raised last week at my Bible study, and I thought I'd get your views on it.

"Can a saved person ever become unsaved?"

I would really appreciate your response. Thanks and God bless. I Thess. 5:16----

Hi Jenny,

Thank you for writing. It's really great to see someone who's investigating why they believe what they believe and not just taking everything at face value. I'm glad you were able to get online, just remember to be like the Bereans and compare everything by "examining the Scriptures daily, to see whether these things are so."

Now to your question. Though there has been much debate on the subject over the years, I believe that the Bible is very explicit on this point. In fact, the book of 1 John was written to this point: "These things I have written to you who believe in the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.(1 John 5:13)." Notice that the Apostle says you now have eternal life. We don't get eternal life after we die... we have it right now, when we believe.

Now, let's follow this idea to its logical conclusion. If we know we have eternal life when we believe in Jesus, how long does eternal life last? Can you have eternal life for a year? A week? A day? If words mean anything at all, then eternal life must be eternal. It must last forever! Eternal life by definition cannot be lost.

Let's look at it another way. What sin is so big that Jesus' death could not atone for it? There is none that I know of (we'll exclude for the moment the passage of Mark 3:28-30, as it really doesn't apply here). Every sin that man can commit against God and man, even the most heinous was dealt with at the cross of Calvary. If this is so, then what sin can be so bad that it would cause God to "unforgive" that which He has already paid for? Romans 8:38-39 explicitly states this, saying "For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." I am a created thing. The verse above states that created things cannot separate us from the love of God, therefore I cannot separate myself from the love of God, either!

Also, in John 10:29, Jesus tells us "And I give eternal life to them; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand." No one includes me! Notice the picture here. You are being held in Jesus' hand, and in the Father's hand. Cup one of your hands over the other, as you would hold a frightened bird. That is the way God holds onto you.

We believe as Christians that we are in a better position than before we were saved. Remember, there is nothing we can do to merit salvation, it's all a work of God. Also remember, God predestined us to our salvation (Eph. 1:4). Would God make a mistake? No, I think the evidence clearly supports the view that your salvation is secure. That thought should be comforting in times of doubt.

Now, I don't want to mislead you. There are several passages which, when read alone, may lead you to believe that you could lose your salvation (Heb 6:5-6, etc.), but careful study can lead to conclusions from these verses that does not necessitate the idea of losing your salvation. I won't go into depth here, but if you have further questions write me and I'll answer them as well.

I hope this has given you food for thought. please let me know if I've helped, I'd like to know what you think!

Shalom!

[jc49]

TO WRAP IT UP ..part 2

link:http://www.comereason.org/bibl_cntr/con062.asp

Do These Passages Show You Can Lose Your Salvation?

First, let me compliment you on your Web site - very clean and neat.

Here's a couple of thoughts for the "what-its-worth" department on the question about Hebrews 6 being difficult to reconcile with a "once saved, always saved" viewpoint:

What about if you just read it as it is and accept it as such? The writer of Hebrews was not attempting to write some kind of "crypto-Greek" for his readers (then and now) to struggle with and try to figure out how this Greek word or that Greek phrase could be translated to support what we THINK the passage means. The writer of Hebrews was simply writing a sermon to the Jews and trying to get his point across. Doesn't it seem rather unlikely that we should all have to go through all sorts of literary and mental gymnastics to try and come up with the meaning of these "difficult" verses? Instead, let's just accept them at face value, as the holy word of God.

I would suggest to you that the Bible does not teach eternal salvation, although it sure would be nice if it did. The Bible warns Christians that they can "fall from grace" (Gal. 5:1-5), be "cut off" from salvation (Rom. 11:18-22), have their names removed from the Lamb's Book of Life (Rev. 22:19), by committing certain sins and not repenting of them (cf. Eph. 5: 3-5; 1Cor. 6:9; Gal. 5:19, Rev. 21:6-8). In a chilling reminder of the possibility of losing salvation by separating oneself from Christ, Paul says, "I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should become disqualified." (1 Cor. 9:27).

Here are a couple of additional passages that pretty much spell out the fact that one can lose one's salvation:

Matt: 6:15

Matt: 19:21-35

Matt: 10:22-32

Luke 12:41-46

1 Cor. 15:1-2

Colossians 1:22-23

Hebrews 3:6, 14

Rev. 2:10, 25-36, 3:1-5

2 Peter 2:20-22

These passages give a pretty strong witness to the fact that we can fall away and, if we do not repent and come back to Jesus, we could suffer the consequences for all eternity.

Anyway, you asked for thoughts, so these are mine. Let me know how they sit with you.

Sincerely,

William

Hi William,

Thank you for writing and expressing your views. I'm glad that you take the time to ponder some of these matters. In most cases, your approach to the Scriptures is correct. If the most literal sense makes the best sense, then we should pursue it no farther. However, to be a careful thinker on issues such as these we must realize that some texts aren't so clear cut.

One of the things that leads someone in the field of Biblical Hermeneutics (the study of accurate Scriptural interpretation) to look more deeply at a passage is when it seems to be giving a contradictory teaching on some particular of theology. Now I am far from an expert in Hermeneutics, but I do know that there are several passages in the New Testament that argue for the position of eternal security. I have listed some of them in my previous article entitled "Can You Lose Your Salvation?"

I don't feel the writer was writing some sort of "Crypto-Greek" when he addressed the Hebrews concerning this issue. We must remember that this was first a letter to a particular people from a familiar teacher dealing with real difficulties with which that specific church or group of churches was struggling. Because of the personal nature of address, the modern reader, being a third party, cannot know all the details, inferences, or common knowledge and experiences shared by the writer and his intended audience. Also, there may have been some previous history of teaching between the two that we are unaware of. So the phrasing of Hebrews six may seem straightforward enough, but given its stance and some of the wording, many commentators feel it addresses issues that are slightly different than eternal security.

As to some of the other passages you cite, we can briefly examine them also. Gal. 5:1-5 is discussing believers who are trying to please God by adding the Law to their salvation. But we know that this approach is doomed to failure. In Paul's mind there are two opposing categories of approaching God - Law being one and Grace the other(and the higher or better of the two). The key to these verses is found in Chapter four where Paul writes,

"Now I say, as long as a heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave, although he is owner of everything, but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by the father. So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world. But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, in order that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive adoption as sons."

Paul demonstrates here that he is talking about the way we relate to God. He does not mean we will fall from salvation, but from a way of relating to God by grace (i.e. there's nothing I can do to make up for my sins) to that of the Law or works (i.e. I must keep some rules in order to still be considered for heaven.) When he says that a believer has "fallen from grace" (vs 4), he is saying that the believer has fallen from the more perfect way of seeking God's will in his life to the more base (and unreachable) way. It does not mean someone had salvation and now lost it. So this passage addresses the believers' walk more than their eternal security.

Romans 11 speaks of Israel was a branch that was "cut-off" because of unbelief (vs. 20). Paul then admonishes the Gentiles to "stand by your faith." Paul is speaking to the church at Rome who felt that Gentiles were somehow better than Jews because God had chosen them for salvation. This was a bigoted position, and Paul is trying to correct their error. He says that if the Gentiles as a whole were to become an unbelieving people, then God would just as readily cut them off from the promises of salvation. This position was to be understood as a cultural comparison, not on an individual basis (verse 13 says, "But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles.") In fact, later in the chapter Paul argues for the security of the believer in God's calling. "For the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable." (vs.29) In Galatians 3, Paul then states that neither Jews nor Greeks have any advantage once they are in Christ.

Next, we'll look at Revelation 22:19, where we read, "And if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book." This statement was not addressed to Christians only, but to "everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book." (vs. 18) This passage, therefore, doesn't apply to Christians only.

There are those who would argue that God taking away someone's part from the Tree of Life means that they had a claim to it previously and now lost it. This is not necessarily so, as God is "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9) The tree of Life can be thought of as big enough to allow every human a part, but only those who are saved will have their part allotted to them. Also, to "take away" for the book would mean to ignore or dismiss the descriptions as being true. Skeptics would be found in this category. So we can safely dismiss this verse as not focusing on losing one's salvation at all.

The passage you cite in Matthew, ("If you do not forgive men, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions." Mt 6:15) as well as several others you mention (Rev. 3:5, 1 Cor 15:2, Col. 1:23, Heb. 3:5, etc) all make a statement such as "if you hold fast until the end." These passages just beg the question, though. If you cannot lose your salvation, you will hold fast until the end. Holding fast, then, becomes an identifier or distinguishing trait of those that are truly saved. We have good reason to believe this interpretation in these verses because of 1 John 1:19. There the apostle writes, "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

In contrast, the passages in Ephesians 5, 1 Corinthians 6, Galatians 5 and Revelation 21 are distinguishing traits of those who are not saved. Theses lists aren't even confined to those who claim to be Christians, but also include all pagans and idolaters. Galatians 5:21 is particularly clear in this when Paul writes "those who practice such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." To practice in this instance means a habitual, unrepentant lifestyle; not to fall into a specific sin, even several times. Again, we turn to the apostle John where 1 John 3:9-10 states, "Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother."

The other Matthew passage, "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." (Mt 19:24) demonstrates that riches become a hindrance to seeking salvation at all, not losing salvation.

Revelation 2:5 speaks of Christ removing the lampstand from Ephesus. In order to be consistent with Matthew 5:15-16, we must understand the lampstand to be the witness of the Ephesian church, not their salvation. Indeed, the Ephesian church did not continue as a body, and its members were dispersed, although I don't believe this means they were no longer Christians.

Lastly, Revelation 3:5 is an argument against fact. It says that if you are a Christian, you are guaranteed that your name will not be erased from the Book if Life. Every passage dealing with unbelievers states that their names were not found in the Book of Life. It does not say that their names are blotted out from the Book.

Now, to be fair, this verse is hotly debated by various scholars as to whether it implies that a name can be blotted out. This, however, is not necessarily an argument for losing salvation. Some commentators believe that the Book of Life may contain every name of every person who ever lived, using passages like 2 Peter 3:9 ("The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.") and John 3:16 as support (i.e. "for God so loved the world" ). Their reasoning is that the Book of Life shows how salvation is available to all, but those who do not choose to follow Christ are then blotted out.

Before we finish, I do want to issue a clarification and a word of caution. Because I believe that one cannot lose his salvation does not mean I think we should approach our Christian walk cavalierly. Jesus taught us in John 14: 15 "If you love me, keep my commandments." Paul also illustrates this clearly in 1 Corinthians 3 as he talks of how our actions as Christians will be judged. He sums it up in verse 15, stating "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." Then, when we read his admonition to run with endurance and to finish well, we can better understand that he is encouraging us toward a strong Christian lifestyle because it is 1) pleasing to God; and 2) a more effective way to reach others for Christ. It is our "reasonable service."(Rom. 12:1)

I hope that you will again look at these issues. I think that if you purchased a carpet with a lifetime warranty and it wore out in one year, you would rightly complain that the carpet company violated its word. You would say that the carpet is defective and it needs to be replaced with one that will never wear out. Our salvation has a promise of eternal life. I cannot reconcile the word eternal with the idea of being revoked at some future occurrence. I would be interested in arguments showing how everlasting life doesn't last! Thank you again for taking the time for this discussion and I appreciate your comments.

SHALOM

We are SAVED and SAFE ETERNALLY in "HIS HANDS"

Maranatha!!!!

[Christ's Free Servant]

By the way thanks for asking these questions!! They are really encouraging me to make sure I understand what I believe!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are welcome! Let me clarify one thing I said. I don't question "eternal security" of the believer. I do question OSAS. I see too many verses that contradict OSAS. I don't believe someone can lose his salvation by the mere act of sinning. But, I also don't believe someone can pray a prayer of "faith," but there never be a change in his lifestyle, and then still have the promise of eternal life.

From my understanding of scripture, which is not perfect, I see something in between these two extremes. I believe with the OSAS that a person may not have been saved to begin with, which is why I believe we should present the whole gospel to people and not give them the impression they have an easy ticket into heaven. Because, when they find out the cost of following Christ, many do not stay with it.

I wonder about the four types of soil mentioned in the scripture and if one or two of those mentioned could refer to someone who "believed," but their faith never took root and thus whatever.

I do believe you can know you have eternal life. But, so many verses, more than the ones I mentioned here, seem to indicate that a person's faith could cease and thus the promise of eternal life could cease, too. I was hoping for some dialogue on these specific verses, rather than people just giving their opinions or giving the OSAS verses. So, thanks so much, again, for dialoguing this with me.

I do hope it has been beneficial to others, as well. I know I have learned the most when I have been challenged in my faith. But, when we are challenged, we should not just look for verses to prove we are right, because we could be wrong. I think we should always look at the whole picture, compare scripture with scripture, pray, pray, pray, and let the Holy Spirit lead us to truth.

[Christ's Free Servant]

Salvation is free, but the upkeep is expensive.

It will cost us our old nature. (Eph. 4:22).

Romans 6:6  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Galatians 2:20  I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me.

1John 5:18  We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

The born again life must be manifested in our daily thoughts, words, and deeds. It has to be more than lip service. We don't want Jesus to say, "I never knew you: depart from Me,..."  (Matt 7:23).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thank you for sharing this. What you are saying here is absolutely true. I appreciate your input.

[Christ's Free Servant]

TO WRAP IT UP ..part 2

link:http://www.comereason.org/bibl_cntr/con062.asp

We are SAVED and SAFE ETERNALLY in "HIS HANDS"

Maranatha!!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I appreciate you sharing all you did in To Wrap It Up parts 1 & 2. I am knee deep right now in getting our house ready to sell. Our furniture is piled in the middle of our rooms while the rooms are being painted and then we have to put it all back and then... well, if you have ever sold a house before, you would know.

The point is, I will try to read and digest all that you wrote, but it might be a few days before I can get back to you with a response. I just did not want you to think I was ignoring you or that I did not appreciate your efforts. I do. So, I'll write soon.

[BigJer]

A great big thank you to those who respond without sarcasm, talking around the question, using the usual pet phrases that do not answer the question, etc. You have gained my respect.

[Christ's Free Servant]

A great big thank you  to those who respond without sarcasm, talking around the question, using the usual pet phrases that do not answer the question, etc. You have gained my respect. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I second that!!