No, God Didn't Use Evolution as the Mechanism of Creation

[Guest shiloh357]

1 minute ago, one.opinion said:

Those of us that have the opinion that God used evolution as His tool have zero argument with Genesis 1:1. The author intends for this to make a "WOW" statement, but the premise for the entire essay is faulty. Kinda sets the tone for the remainder, which is also full of error.

If you believe in Evolution, then you have given up Gen. 1:1.  Because it wasn't God who created us; it was millions of years of death that ended up bringing mankind into existence.   Evolution is an impersonal, wholly naturalistic process devoid of any intelligent impetus or involvement of any kind. 

Ether be faithful to Jesus, or be faithful to an atheistic theory.   You can't have both (except in your carnal imagination).

[one.opinion]

2 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

If you believe in Evolution, then you have given up Gen. 1:1.

This is factual error. I accept the science of evolution and I stand 100% by Genesis 1:1.

4 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

Because it wasn't God who created us; it was millions of years of death that ended up bringing mankind into existence.

I generally dislike analogies, but I'll make an exception here. Think of a modern auto factory that uses automation to assemble thousands of parts into a working automobile. Would you say that humans don't make cars because the robotic arms do it? No, humans built the machines that assemble the cars. Even though I think inherited change over time "assembled" the life forms we see today, it is still entirely reasonable to accept God as the ultimate Maker.

[Guest shiloh357]

Just now, one.opinion said:

This is factual error. I accept the science of evolution and I stand 100% by Genesis 1:1.

No, not really.  Genesis 1:1 is explained by the verses that follow.   So if you did believe 1:1 you would believe the rest of the chapter, but you don't.  And Evolution is the antithesis of science.

 

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I generally dislike analogies, but I'll make an exception here. Think of a modern auto factory that uses automation to assemble thousands of parts into a working automobile. Would you say that humans don't make cars because the robotic arms do it? No, humans built the machines that assemble the cars. Even though I think inherited change over time "assembled" the life forms we see today, it is still entirely reasonable to accept God as the ultimate Maker.

But that isn't what the Bible says happened.  So that analogy doesn't fit.   You can't make that analogy fit the text.   The Bible says that God personally created Adam from the dust of the earth and that he put Adam to sleep and took some flesh from his side and from that mound of flesh, created Eve.   So that doesn't really jive with the analogy.   Adam was a special creation, made apart from the rest of the created order and He was made in God's image and likeness, and the same with Eve, so you really don't seem to grasp what the Bible says.

[one.opinion]

3 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

Adam was a special creation, made apart from the rest of the created order and He was made in God's image and likeness, and the same with Eve, so you really don't seem to grasp what the Bible says.

Yes, he absolutely was a special creation. Mankind is the only organism God chose to imbue with a spirit and the capability to commune with Him.

[Guest shiloh357]

Just now, one.opinion said:

Yes, he absolutely was a special creation. Mankind is the only organism God chose to imbue with a spirit and the capability to commune with Him.

Not merely talking about "man" in general.  We are talking about Adam and Eve his wife  These are real, historical persons.  Adam is NOT the product of Evolution.   God created Adam personally from the dirt.   That is his origin.  You need to grapple with THAT.  Eve was created from the flesh God extracted from Adam's side.  Your factory automation theory doesn't agree with what the Bible says about HOW God brought Adam and Eve into existence.

[one.opinion]

37 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

Not merely talking about "man" in general.  We are talking about Adam and Eve his wife  These are real, historical persons.  Adam is NOT the product of Evolution.   God created Adam personally from the dirt.   That is his origin.  You need to grapple with THAT.  Eve was created from the flesh God extracted from Adam's side.  Your factory automation theory doesn't agree with what the Bible says about HOW God brought Adam and Eve into existence.

I’m not feeling the need to enter the protracted discussion here. I was just pointing out the rather obvious flawed premise of the OP. It seems clear that you are going to stick by it regardless of its validity, so bidding you a good day and signing off.

[Guest shiloh357]

35 minutes ago, one.opinion said:

I’m not feeling the need to enter the protracted discussion here.

Well of course, when you can't defend your argument  and your analogy was pretty much deconstructed...

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I was just pointing out the rather obvious flawed premise of the OP. It seems clear that you are going to stick by it regardless of its validity, so bidding you a good day and signing off.

The OP is right.   You don't believe Genesis 1:1 or John 1:1.   You are not a creationist, you are an evolutionist and as such do not believe the Bible's account of creation.  You try to obfuscate the issue by pretending that simply accepting the propositional claims of Genesis 1:1 that you can call yourself a creationist, when you know darn well that you are NOT a creationist.   The person with a validity issue isn't the OP it's you and your attempt to muddy the water about what creationism is.    If that kind of dishonest approach is what we have to look forward to,  then I agree;  you probably should just go. 

[Guest]

21 hours ago, one.opinion said:

I'd be very happy to have that discussion with you some time, SObG, but maybe by DM. I know you're capable of having a calm conversation without raising to theatrical levels. But there are a lot of people here that aren't.

Sure.  I just want to avoid heated debates.  I'm under enough stress at work.

[Guest shiloh357]

Theistic Evolution (hereafter, TE) is a false teaching that is an attempt to co-opt an atheistic theory of origins and blend it Christian theology.   It is really like trying mix Atheism with Christianity.  

From a theological perspective, TE is fraught with problems, but two of the largest problems is the origin of death and the origin of man.   

DEATH

When it comes to death, Evolution, no matter if you are talking about the secular theory or TE, both require millions upon millions of years of death as creatures evolved over that long period of time.    But the Bible has a totally different take on the origin of death.  The Bible teaches that death (physical and spiritual) entered the world in the Garden of Eden when man fell.   God warned Adam that he if he ate of the tree the knowledge of good evil, he would die. 

And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. (Gen 2:16-17)

This is not simply spiritual death that is being referenced.   And we know that by the fact that physical death is part of the fulfillment of that curse:  And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. (Gen 3:17-19)

So physical death was part of the curse. 

Paul has this event in mind in Rom. 5:12-21.   Paul does not have only spiritual death in mind.  Paul never qualifies any type of death.  TE tries to limit what Paul is talking about by asserting that Paul is only referring to spiritual death, but that is not supportable from the text.   

God never engineered death into creation. Death entered into the world through sin and God is not the author of sin.   Thus, God is also not the author death.   God would not have made a world where death ruled over the created order.  Death was not what God wanted.

That is because death is counter to the nature and character of God.  And it was death that God sent Jesus to redeem us from.  If physical death were part of God’s plan and purpose, why would Jesus die to deliver us from that curse?   Why would God the Father send Jesus to destroy that which was His will from the beginning?   If God willed for death to exist, then Jesus’ death on the cross to deliver us from death pits God against Himself.  It has Jesus working in contradiction to the will of God.  

Nothing in the Bible EVER paints physical death as part of the will and purpose of God and when the Bible deals with death, it doesn’t necessarily divide spiritual death from physical death.  So, the theistic evolutionist attempts to qualify death (subjectively) to refer to “spiritual death” when they need it to, is a dead stick as that qualification cannot be justified by Scripture.  It is what they have to do in order to make the Bible fit their perverted, ungodly theory.

In Genesis 1:31. God has created everything and the Bible says that all of creation was “very good.”   In Hebrew, that phrase is rendered tov-meod and it is emphatic.  It synonymous with saying that God saw that it was perfect.  That means sin and death could not have been present in creation, as neither sin, nor death are “very good.” 

We can see that death will not exist in the New Heavens and New Earth:  

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. (Rev 21:1-4)

Once sin is eradicated, we see what life will look like as it is a return to man’s pre-sin condition and part of that will be the absence of death.  The absence of physical death is part of that description.   Note the places in the Bible where the absence of  physical death is mentioned in connection with redemption that comes through Jesus:

But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (1Co 15:20-23)

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? (1Co 15:51-55)

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1Th 4:13-17)

CREATION OF ADAM AND EVE

 

For TE, another huge problem is origin and creation of Adam.   TE teaches that Adam and Eve were not the first humans to walk the earth, but rather the first humans to have a relationship with God.   This is another part of the major false doctrine that goes counter to the Scriptures.   To teach us perversion, one must depart from a faithful, intelligent interpretation of Scripture. In fact, one must depart from Scriptures altogether.  It robs God of the glory of being our Creator and it contradicts the Bible.

The Bible teaches that Adam and Eve created directly from the dust of the earth.   But TE teaches that Adam and Eve were the product of Evolution, that there were millions of years of Evolution leading up to the humans that existed at the time of Adam and Eve and that God chose Adam and Eve to reveal Himself and have a personal relationship with them.  

However, the Bible does not support that perversion.    The Bible teaches Adam and Eve were the first people to ever walk upon the face of the earth and God made them personally.  In fact, God gave more attention to Adam and Eve because wanted to make them in His image and likeness.   God took dirt and made Adam and then God put Adam into a deep sleep and took some of Adam’s flesh and made Eve.  Adam and Eve did not come into existence at the same time and neither of them were the product of Evolution.  

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul…  And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. (Gen 2:7, 21-23)

The were made personally by God as separate from the rest of the created order, making any claims by theistic evolutionists that God used Evolution completely impossible to reconcile with the Bible.   If God did not use evolution as a mechanism to bring about Adam and Eve, the first people, God did not use it for anything else.  

 

 

[one.opinion]

10 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

When it comes to death, Evolution, no matter if you are talking about the secular theory or TE, both require millions upon millions of years of death as creatures evolved over that long period of time.    But the Bible has a totally different take on the origin of death.  The Bible teaches that death (physical and spiritual) entered the world in the Garden of Eden when man fell.   God warned Adam that he if he ate of the tree the knowledge of good evil, he would die.

How do you reach the conclusion from the Bible that no animals died before the Fall of mankind? What Biblical references would you use to support his hypothesis? How would Adam have any realization of what "death" meant if he had never seen anything die before?

10 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. (Gen 2:16-17)

Adam did eat, and did not die that day. This strongly suggests that the death was spiritual and not physical.

10 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

This is not simply spiritual death that is being referenced.   And we know that by the fact that physical death is part of the fulfillment of that curse:  And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. (Gen 3:17-19)

Here is the curse - "cursed is the ground for thy sake". The curse is on the ground, that Adam would toil all the days of his life "till thou return unto the ground". It is not as clear on whether or not Adam's death is part of the curse. The passage could very easily be interpreted as "you are going to work hard until you die".

11 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

Paul has this event in mind in Rom. 5:12-21.   Paul does not have only spiritual death in mind.  Paul never qualifies any type of death.  TE tries to limit what Paul is talking about by asserting that Paul is only referring to spiritual death, but that is not supportable from the text.

It is absolutely supportable from the text. The Romans 5 passage compares death via sin to life via Jesus Christ. It is VERY clear from the passage that the life through Jesus Christ is a spiritual life. As we read the juxtaposition of life and death, the more obvious conclusion is that the death that is being compared to the spiritual life is of a spiritual nature, as well.

11 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

God would not have made a world where death ruled over the created order.  Death was not what God wanted.

You are beginning to tread into territory where you claim to know what God would or would not have done. Isaiah 55:8-9 says "“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord. “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.""

11 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

We can see that death will not exist in the New Heavens and New Earth:  

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. (Rev 21:1-4)

I eagerly anticipate that day, like you do! What a wonderful passage! I just don't think it's valid to automatically assume that the "old earth" was the same as what the "new earth" will be.

11 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (1Co 15:20-23)

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? (1Co 15:51-55)

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1Th 4:13-17)

Wonderful images of what is to come!

11 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

For TE, another huge problem is origin and creation of Adam.   TE teaches that Adam and Eve were not the first humans to walk the earth, but rather the first humans to have a relationship with God.   This is another part of the major false doctrine that goes counter to the Scriptures.   To teach us perversion, one must depart from a faithful, intelligent interpretation of Scripture. In fact, one must depart from Scriptures altogether.  It robs God of the glory of being our Creator and it contradicts the Bible.

Full disclosure here -- I am possibly in the minority among TE adherents. There are a large number, including some that I know well and respect, that see Adam and Eve more as imagery than reality. I support the historical view of Adam and Eve primarily because of the genealogy of Jesus in the Luke (Matthew's genealogy only goes back to Abraham). In any case, there are no claims in the Bible that Adam and Eve were the only people on earth. In fact, the human population on earth is high enough within a generation for the existence of populated "lands". From Genesis chapter 4:

"13 Cain said to the Lord, “My punishment is more than I can bear. 14 Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.”

15 But the Lord said to him, “Not so[e]; anyone who kills Cain will suffer vengeance seven times over.” Then the Lord put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him. 16 So Cain went out from the Lord’s presence and lived in the land of Nod,[f] east of Eden."

Why would Cain have needed a mark to protect him if only his brothers and sisters were present on the earth?

11 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul…  And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. (Gen 2:7, 21-23)

You will see it as a stretch, but try going hypothetical just for a moment and think how God would have described evolution, if He created in such a way. Explaining tissues and cells and organelles and proteins and DNA would have been well beyond the scope of the original audience that His Word was intended for. Why couldn't "dust of the earth" be an oblique and non-explanatory reference to all those things that really aren't critical to establishment of God as the ultimate Creator of all things. The Eve from Adam's "side" could very well be a reference to God's design of a husband and wife together becoming something greater than the individual parts.

 

11 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

The were made personally by God as separate from the rest of the created order, making any claims by theistic evolutionists that God used Evolution completely impossible to reconcile with the Bible.   If God did not use evolution as a mechanism to bring about Adam and Eve, the first people, God did not use it for anything else.

There are quite a few individuals that believe evolution could be applied to all other living organisms, but that mankind was made uniquely and specially. My personal opinion is that God used evolution to make the biological form of humans, but supernaturally imbued a spirit that separates us from the rest of living beings.

I know you aren't going to agree with my opinion. That's fine, because I am not going to agree with your opinion, either. But do try to formulate a response without unnecessary personal attacks, please.