Daniel 12:2 Who's sleeping in the dust?

[JesusisGod2]

Hi Old Timer,

Great post!! As far as when the teaching started, I have no idea. I am going by what I understand from what I have read.

Paul never speaks directly against it. Also, he never speaks directly to it. I think he just simply ignored it as it was completely foreign to him, first as a Jew and secondly as a Christian. The Jews believed in the resurrection of the dead on the last day.

So do I, of the body and soul. As far as sleep goes, I have always believed and have said so in this thread that I believe that the soul does sleep. It is the spirit that I questioned and still do to an extent. I am still not 100% sure of total sleep of soul, body and spirit because of the way some of the scriptures are presented.

Again I ask, if Christ said that the thief would join Him in paradise that very day, what was He saying? I myself dont believe that he joined Him bodily, but his spirit did as far as my understanding.

He didnt say you would be with Me in paradise at the ressurection, perhaps his body and soul wont be there until that point, but part of him namely his spirit joined Jesus in paradise that very day, this is what I understand Jesus to have said.

What good would paradise be to one who slept through the whole thing until the ressurection? These are things that I am having trouble understanding, and I could be completely wrong, but really have not had a satisfactory answer to persuade me otherwise....I dont believe that the bible contrdicts itself

Here are a couple other verses I would like to hear your views on.

John 8:56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."

How could Abraham have seen this day?

John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,

26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Jesus appears to be saying that even though the body dies, we will live, everyone who believes in Him will never die.

And of course there are those chapters in Revelation where John is speaking with the elders and this is before the ressurection. These are those that will not close the books for me on the subject of the spirit going to paradise at death.

Again, great post! You have definately given me food for thought and will take into consideration what you have said.

I have been pondering the ressurection chapter myself and it appears to me be speaking of the ressurection of the body and really doesnt touch on the spirit much, but I am definately going to study this chapter in particular tonight.

God Bless you Old Timer

Kevin

[JesusisGod2]

Hello Old Timer,

As I was studying this subject last night and asking God for answers, one more question came up.

The question I have is concerning Pauls letter to the Phillipians, What do you suppose Paul meant by the following?

21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.

22 But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.

23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;

24 yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.

Paul knew to remain here on earth meant very rewarding labor, but he also mentions that to depart from this life means that he would be with the Lord.

What are your thoughts on these verses of scripture?

In Jesus

Kevin

[Old Timer]

Kevin

You certainly know how to ask the tough questions. I am not ignoring them, just putting them aside to work on as time permits.

The thief on the cross and

[Old Timer]

Philippians:

Phi 1:5 For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;

Phi 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Paul expects an immanent return of Christ. This is

[nebula]

Neb,

As to out-of body experiences. I don't know what to think. Some of these experiences seem to be quite authentic. However, I am driven back to the Word of God and view with caution any such incident. I certainly would not let any story, such as these, influence my thoughts over what I believe the Bible teaches. Not being a medical doctor (or a doctor of any sort) I don't know what activity goes on within the brain after a state of death, as medically defined, occurs. I am not begging your question. I just don't know and I would view with some septicism anyone who claims to know. This is a bit off topic. Perhaps you should start another thread on such experiences.

The problem here is that we have different people using the same Scriptures and coming out with different conclusions.

So, when you are talking about "what the Bible teaches" - well, which conclusion is what the Bible teaches?

So, the only correct conclusion has to be the one that actually is found to be true, to actually work in actual life, wouldn't it?

So, if it is true that people do leave their bodies upon death, and have concious memories of things they did, some even describing accurately what they've seen (unlike what would occur in a dream) - than how can "soul sleep" be true?

[JesusisGod2]

Hello Old Timer,

I really appreciate your taking the time to respond. I think this has been a very interesting and fruitful study thus far.

I would like to address the following:

Body

[Old Timer]

Kevin, Great response. I have not looked into all the verses you quoted, just the first one, Psalm 143:6. Let me quote what the Complete Wordstudy Dictionary says about the word "soul" in this verse:

nep̱eš: A feminine noun meaning breath, the inner being with its thoughts and emotions. It is used 753 times in the Old Testament and has a broad range of meanings. Most of its uses fall into these categories: breath, literally or figuratively (Jer_15:9); the inner being with its thoughts and emotions (Jdg_10:16; Pro_14:10; Eze_25:6); and by extension, the whole person (Gen_12:5; Lev_4:2; Eze_18:4). Moreover, the term can cover the animating force of a person or his or her dead body (Lev_21:11; Num_6:6; Jer_2:34). It is even applied to animals in a number of the above senses: the breath (Job_41:21 [13]); the inner being (Jer_2:24); the whole creature (Gen_1:20); and the animating force (Lev_17:11). When this word is applied to a person, it doesn't refer to a specific part of a human being. The Scriptures view a person as a composite whole, fully relating to God and not divided in any way (Deu_6:5; cf. 1Th_5:23).

Each of these verses could be viewed in the same way. Today we (people in general) use the word "spirit" or "heart" to describe such emotions.

As I think I said previously - somewhere - it is often difficult to distinguish between these two words especially in the NT.

[JesusisGod2]

Neb,

As to out-of body experiences. I don't know what to think. Some of these experiences seem to be quite authentic. However, I am driven back to the Word of God and view with caution any such incident. I certainly would not let any story, such as these, influence my thoughts over what I believe the Bible teaches. Not being a medical doctor (or a doctor of any sort) I don't know what activity goes on within the brain after a state of death, as medically defined, occurs. I am not begging your question. I just don't know and I would view with some septicism anyone who claims to know. This is a bit off topic. Perhaps you should start another thread on such experiences.

The problem here is that we have different people using the same Scriptures and coming out with different conclusions.

So, when you are talking about "what the Bible teaches" - well, which conclusion is what the Bible teaches?

So, the only correct conclusion has to be the one that actually is found to be true, to actually work in actual life, wouldn't it?

So, if it is true that people do leave their bodies upon death, and have conscious memories of things they did, some even describing accurately what they've seen (unlike what would occur in a dream) - than how can "soul sleep" be true?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hello Neb,

I know what your saying, and I will try to explain why I have come to the conclusions that I have. Although I am not set in stone that these are in fact correct, it is just what I see today and could be totally wrong..

As far as the example you have given of the soul leaving the body, I don't think it was the soul at all, but the spirit. And I believe that this is where the confusion of the subject of this thread.

I had an out of the body experience and I was not dead. I would go further into it and I'll keep that as my own treasured experience for now.

I guess what I mean by the soul sleeps is that this is the part of us that is in need of redemption, our spirit has been born again. Also the ay we understand sleep and the reference to sleep in scriptures could be different, I don't know.

David makes mention many times of the soul and redemption, I have posted some in my last post.

We all agree that there will be a resurrection of the death as a matter of fact there will two resurrection, one to life and the resurrection to judgement....pray that we are in the first

Acts 24:15

having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

It also appears to me that soul is what is resurrected and given a new body at the resurrection and rejoined with our spirit which is what is with Christ.

In any respect, the body that dies is not the body that is resurrected.

37 and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else.

38 But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own.

So if it is not our body that sleeps, for it returns to the dust, I am assuming it is the soul, again this is just an assumption what does? I agree that no where that I have read does it specifically say that the soul sleeps but something does sleep and therefore this is just my thoughts and not doctrine

In revelation 20 it seems to point to the soul:

4a Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded

John says here that sees the souls of those who have died in Christ

4b because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand;

4c and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

They came to life, what came to life here? It appears to be saying the soul came to life.

5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

Above we see that the souls came to life and now it gives the timing "This is the first resurrection"

Again this is not gospel nor doctrine, I am just showing where I have come to the conclusion that I have about the soul. I could be totally whacked, I don't know.

Now where my confusion lies is about the spirit and I plan to do a study on this and perhaps it might even change what I think I know about the soul

All in all, the more I look into this, I am just fascinated and in awe of how we are so carefully and wonderfully made.

God is just so Awesome Praise You Jesus.

Kevin

[JesusisGod2]

Kevin, Great response. I have not looked into all the verses you quoted, just the first one, Psalm 143:6. Let me quote what the Complete Wordstudy Dictionary says about the word "soul" in this verse:

nep̱eš: A feminine noun meaning breath, the inner being with its thoughts and emotions. It is used 753 times in the Old Testament and has a broad range of meanings. Most of its uses fall into these categories: breath, literally or figuratively (Jer_15:9); the inner being with its thoughts and emotions (Jdg_10:16; Pro_14:10; Eze_25:6); and by extension, the whole person (Gen_12:5; Lev_4:2; Eze_18:4). Moreover, the term can cover the animating force of a person or his or her dead body (Lev_21:11; Num_6:6; Jer_2:34). It is even applied to animals in a number of the above senses: the breath (Job_41:21 [13]); the inner being (Jer_2:24); the whole creature (Gen_1:20); and the animating force (Lev_17:11). When this word is applied to a person, it doesn't refer to a specific part of a human being. The Scriptures view a person as a composite whole, fully relating to God and not divided in any way (Deu_6:5; cf. 1Th_5:23).

Each of these verses could be viewed in the same way. Today we (people in general) use the word "spirit" or "heart" to describe such emotions.

As I think I said previously - somewhere - it is often difficult to distinguish between these two words especially in the NT.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Old Timer,

Wow neat, this has been very fruitful OT I appreciate your patience.

As I think I said previously - somewhere - it is often difficult to distinguish between these two words especially in the NT.

Amen, this is where I am having trouble as well, perhaps our whole being does sleep, but then I am confused by the references that imply otherwise.

In Jesus

Kevin

[Old Timer]

The problem here is that we have different people using the same Scriptures and coming out with different conclusions.

So, when you are talking about "what the Bible teaches" - well, which conclusion is what the Bible teaches?

So, the only correct conclusion has to be the one that actually is found to be true, to actually work in actual life, wouldn't it?

So, if it is true that people do leave their bodies upon death, and have concious memories of things they did, some even describing accurately what they've seen (unlike what would occur in a dream) - than how can "soul sleep" be true?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ok, I will try to make my position clearer. I am willing to form an opinion on out-of-body experiences if you can show me some verse or teaching in the Bible that speaks to it. I don't know of any, perhaps you do.

Your last paragraph starts, "So, if..." and there's the rub. Do we know for certain that these experiences occured during the time of "death" or just before or just after?

I confess, I know little about it. To try and prove or disprove some teaching in the Bible from stories of out-of-body experiences, seems to me, a dangerous step.