CarolineS Posted May 17, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 414 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/15/2003 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 17, 2005 Greetings Dad Ernie, Thank you for your input regarding the beast and his mark. I just want to comment, however, if you do not believe the RCC is the beast power and the seat of the antichrist you are not in agreement with such great reformers as John Wycliffe, John Huss, and Martin Luther. Have you read Foxes Book of Martyrs? Also have you read anything written on Martin Luther? This identification of the beast as the medieval church was the almost unanimous view of Protestants up until the twentieth century. As far as the Sabbath, does the specific day really matter? It does -- not because of the day itself (as opposed to any other day), but because of what it represents. The seventh-day Sabbath points humanity back to the foundation of all reality -- that God is the Creator of heaven and earth. Nothing Christians believe makes any sense apart from this fundamental fact. Therefore, to tamper with the outward symbol of God's creator-ship is to undermine the essence of God's authority. The Sabbath isn't about a day, it's about worshiping the Creator as He, in His sovereignty and authority, commands us to. Will the Sabboth/Sunday controversy ever be an issue again? In the summer of 1998 Pope John Paul II issued a a lengthy apostolic letter, Dies Domini, in which he urged people not only to start keeping Sunday holy, but to pass laws that will enforce it. What does the new pope say about this issue? Pope Joseph Ratzinger revamped the new Catholic Catechism to say, "In respecting religious liberty and the common good of all, Christians should seek recognition of Sundays and the Church's holy days as legal holidays," 10 years ago when he was the Cardinal in charge of the office of the inquisition. (Catholic Catechism, par.2188) The Sabbath/Sunday issue will occur again in the last days before Christ returns. The big issue in the Book of Daniel was worship. This country was formed by people who wanted the freedom to worship their own way. And I think this will be the major issue of the end times. Will people follow the commandments of God or will they worship the beast? There will only be two classes of people on earth. Those who follow God's commandments, including the 4th commandment; and those who don't. I don't want to argue about the identity of the beast or the Sabbath, I just wanted to comment on your post. I think we will have to wait and watch. If churches unite with the RCC church, as it seems they are doing more and more, and if people start talking about Sunday as a day of rest, or family day then we better be paying attention. In Christ, CarolineS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarolineS Posted May 17, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 414 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/15/2003 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 17, 2005 Greetings Dad Ernie, Thank you for your input regarding the beast and his mark. I just want to comment, however, if you do not believe the RCC is the beast power and the seat of the antichrist you are not in agreement with such great reformers as John Wycliffe, John Huss, and Martin Luther. Have you read Foxes Book of Martyrs? Also have you read anything written on Martin Luther? This identification of the beast as the medieval church was the almost unanimous view of Protestants up until the twentieth century. As far as the Sabbath, does the specific day really matter? It does -- not because of the day itself (as opposed to any other day), but because of what it represents. The seventh-day Sabbath points humanity back to the foundation of all reality -- that God is the Creator of heaven and earth. Nothing Christians believe makes any sense apart from this fundamental fact. Therefore, to tamper with the outward symbol of God's creator-ship is to undermine the essence of God's authority. The Sabbath isn't about a day, it's about worshiping the Creator as He, in His sovereignty and authority, commands us to. Will the Sabboth/Sunday controversy ever be an issue again? In the summer of 1998 Pope John Paul II issued a a lengthy apostolic letter, Dies Domini, in which he urged people not only to start keeping Sunday holy, but to pass laws that will enforce it. What does the new pope say about this issue? Pope Joseph Ratzinger revamped the new Catholic Catechism to say, "In respecting religious liberty and the common good of all, Christians should seek recognition of Sundays and the Church's holy days as legal holidays," 10 years ago when he was the Cardinal in charge of the office of the inquisition. (Catholic Catechism, par.2188) The Sabbath/Sunday issue will occur again in the last days before Christ returns. The big issue in the Book of Daniel was worship. This country was formed by people who wanted the freedom to worship their own way. And I think this will be the major issue of the end times. Will people follow the commandments of God or will they worship the beast? There will only be two classes of people on earth. Those who follow God's commandments, including the 4th commandment; and those who don't. I don't want to argue about the identity of the beast or the Sabbath, I just wanted to comment on your post. I think we will have to wait and watch. If churches unite with the RCC church, as it seems they are doing more and more, and if people start talking about Sunday as a day of rest, or family day then we better be paying attention. In Christ, CarolineS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiosh Posted May 17, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 73 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,663 Content Per Day: 0.53 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/20/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted May 17, 2005 The Catholic Church is the Beast of Revelation, the Harlot of Babylon from whose bosom the antichrist will one day emerge in the person of the Pope. Yet, everyday, in Catholic Churches throughout the world, the Name of Jesus is uplifted, and He is worshipped and adored as King of Kings and Lord of Lords; as 2nd Person of the Trinity, as True God and true man. Go figure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad Ernie Posted May 17, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,802 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 46 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/29/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/01/1945 Share Posted May 17, 2005 Greetings Caroline S, A while back, the Lord showed me a vision of the Catholic church. It was a picture of an octopus sitting on top of the world with its tentacles stretched out over the entire world indicating its "fingers in every endeavor" of mankind. So I do not disregard the Catholic church entirely, however, from the onset, the Catholic church has been an apostate church with its foundation built upon a different gospel than the one Paul preached. I do not see them as one of the 7 churches to which Revelation is addressed, neither do I see the False Prophet arising from within it, but he will arise from the Laodician church "spirit", that will unite the organized church and become apostate itself. God will spew them out of His mouth. The Catholic church has many beliefs that coincide with the reformed/evangelical community, but there are too many doctrinal errors with it to consider it as part of the 7 churches. As for the Sabbath, a plain reading of the Hebrew verses I provided, reveals that "another day" called "today" is the "rest" for God's people. What is the "another day" to you? The Jews remain Sabbath keepers, yet do not enter into the "rest" of Christ. Paul makes it clear that New Moons and Sabbaths are ONLY a shadow of what was to come and the reality is Christ. He is our Sabbath's Rest, and it doesn't make a difference upon which day or days you wish to gather with fellow believers or to set aside for personal worship, for every day is the Lord's. So like circumcision, the Sabbath is fulfilled in Christ. I'm sorry you read into the scriptures as much as you do. You use secular sources and your own thoughts to support your position on these things. I am rather simple minded, I guess, because I believe in scripture alone. Blessings, Dad Ernie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarolineS Posted May 17, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 414 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/15/2003 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 17, 2005 I'm sorry you read into the scriptures as much as you do. You use secular sources and your own thoughts to support your position on these things. I am rather simple minded, I guess, because I believe in scripture alone. Blessings, Dad Ernie <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I do not use secular sources, Dad Ernie. I believe in scripture alone; Scripture interprets scripture. I guess we just see things differently on some issues. I also believe in the Ten Commandments; I don't think they have been changed. I guess we will just have to wait and see on this issue. In Chirst, CarolineS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remnantrob Posted May 20, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,029 Content Per Day: 0.15 Reputation: 261 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/25/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/23/1982 Share Posted May 20, 2005 I'm gonna go with symbolic...Why?.....just a hunch...Christians are who the devil wants to become lost not regular folk that he has already gotten. If christians all over the world saw a literal mark or new that mark was gonna be given to everyone worldwide, then they would obviously not take it because they've "been studying". I believe (like the minority probably) that Satan is more deceptive than that. If he was able to convince perfect beings made in the image of God to sin and to take a third of the angels of heaven with him, why would he be so obvious to a sinful human being. I'm jumping on the ban wagon of those who believe the position of the pope(not the individual) will be a leading force in bringing about the mark of the beast. That is my opinion based on what i have studied with others and what i have prayed about. Now i'm now saying God granted me decernment over anyone cause i need saving just as much as anyone else...but i really believe that God has a plan that Satan is working hard at perverting but we all know that he will ultimately fail. I pray that Jesus continues to be with you all and myself, helping us to become overcomers of this world and receiving the privilege of sitting by Christ in the New Heaven and Earth. Love Peace and Hair Grease Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted May 20, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.96 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted May 20, 2005 I'm gonna go with symbolic...Why?.....just a hunch...Christians are who the devil wants to become lost not regular folk that he has already gotten. If christians all over the world saw a literal mark or new that mark was gonna be given to everyone worldwide, then they would obviously not take it because they've "been studying". I believe (like the minority probably) that Satan is more deceptive than that. I've been thinking something similar. Too many people, even non-Christians, know of the 666 mark. That would be way too obvious, even for non-Christians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevehut Posted May 20, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 26 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,216 Content Per Day: 0.44 Reputation: 43 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/24/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/16/1962 Share Posted May 20, 2005 So, what if the mark spoken of is not really a literal mark at all? What if Satan wants us to think it will be a mark or computer chip on the hand or forehead? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You have a good point here, the "mark" may in fact be something other than a physically visible sign. But this is my view on the matter, in general: Revelation describes the Beast as something (or someone) who already exists, at the time of the writing. For this reason, I don't think it can be a modern invention like a computer chip. Or an institution like the European Union, as some have theorized. If the "mark" was something modern like that, then the prophecies would be useless to the believers of the first century. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevehut Posted May 20, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 26 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,216 Content Per Day: 0.44 Reputation: 43 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/24/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/16/1962 Share Posted May 20, 2005 1- The Catholic Church is the Beast of Revelation, the Harlot of Babylon from whose bosom the antichrist will one day emerge in the person of the Pope. 2- Yet, everyday, in Catholic Churches throughout the world, the Name of Jesus is uplifted, <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Alright everybody, hold on your your hats....I'm about to defend the Catholic church here. But probably not in the way that y'all would like me to. 1- I don't think this is it. Why? Because the Catholic church (as it is presently constituted) did not exist at the time of the writing of the book. There was no papacy (in the way it exists today), no college of Cardinals, no worldly riches, no Vatican, no pervasive political power. In other words, the church did not then display the characteristics that people now point to as "proof" of their identity as the Beast. Don't forget, the prophecies of the Beast are written in the present tense, to describe a person (or institution) that already existed at the time of the writing. 2- Likewise with Religious Science. And Muslims. And Bahai's. And Scientology. And even the demons believe. So just proclaiming the name of Jesus does not prove much, in my view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad Ernie Posted May 20, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,802 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 46 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/29/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/01/1945 Share Posted May 20, 2005 Alright everybody, hold on your your hats....I'm about to defend the Catholic church here. But probably not in the way that y'all would like me to. 1- I don't think this is it. Why? Because the Catholic church (as it is presently constituted) did not exist at the time of the writing of the book. There was no papacy (in the way it exists today), no college of Cardinals, no worldly riches, no Vatican, no pervasive political power. In other words, the church did not then display the characteristics that people now point to as "proof" of their identity as the Beast. Don't forget, the prophecies of the Beast are written in the present tense, to describe a person (or institution) that already existed at the time of the writing. 2- Likewise with Religious Science. And Muslims. And Bahai's. And Scientology. And even the demons believe. So just proclaiming the name of Jesus does not prove much, in my view. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hey, Steve Hut, good post. Good thoughts. The False Prophet will arise out of the Laodician Church - God is about to spew them out of His mouth. Blessings, Dad Ernie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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