JohnD Posted September 30, 2018 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 905 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,646 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,832 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted September 30, 2018 On 9/28/2018 at 10:39 PM, Follower Of Jesus said: Is the Father God? Yes. Is the Holy Spirit God? Yes. Is Jesus God? Yes. Is God all-knowing? Yes. Then why does only the Father know when the final hour will be? Each holds different offices. The Father is the authority. The Son is the Creator / Savior. The Holy Spirit is the revelator / current authority on earth. I cannot prove this theory beyond the shadow of doubt, but I believe it is possible that God (by nature) lives on a much higher plain of existence than we can even comprehend. All three persons of the Godhead. But in order to interact with lower beings like us, the Son and the Holy Spirit had to temporal-ize certain aspects of their omniscience while the Father alone remains in that higher plain... in this way the Son and the Holy Spirit are like Divine Priests (from man to God) and Prophets (from God to man). In Jesus' case, he had to take upon himself aspects of humanity and as a man he did not know what the Father knew. But the Holy Spirit also must "search the deep things of God") 1 Corinthians 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Follower Of Jesus Posted September 30, 2018 Group: Non-Trinitarian Followers: 2 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 72 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 28 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/22/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 30, 2018 Just now, warrior12 said: Ponder on these two verses for a while and maybe you can see something that you did not see before. It is only two verses ,but explains it all. John 10 King James Version (KJV) 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one. When you give quotes like these, as everyone else did. You need to explain how this references my question. Verse 29 is referring to no one being able to steal your personal salvation. Maybe you're referring to "my Father is greater than all". Which doesn't answer anything. Verse 30, is speaking on a ontological level. Which only makes my question stand out stronger. I have to spend my time guessing what people mean with these irrelevant quotes, because no one explains their position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Follower Of Jesus Posted September 30, 2018 Group: Non-Trinitarian Followers: 2 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 72 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 28 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/22/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 30, 2018 4 minutes ago, JohnD said: as a man he did not know what the Father knew I understand that, everyone makes this point. Like I said, did Jesus know before incarnating as a man? Does Jesus currently in heaven, know the final hour? If the answer is yes to both, then essentially Jesus would know the final hour. If he did, then the Spirit who guided Jesus, wouldn't have told him to say "only the Father knows", as a general statement. Let's ask then, does the Holy Spirit know the final hour? If you're a trinitarian, this puts you in a tight spot. No one has a direct answer. I'm starting to realize no one ever will, because this knowledge is probably hidden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warrior12 Posted September 30, 2018 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 54 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,428 Content Per Day: 0.88 Reputation: 1,516 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/05/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted September 30, 2018 13 minutes ago, Follower Of Jesus said: When you give quotes like these, as everyone else did. You need to explain how this references my question. Verse 29 is referring to no one being able to steal your personal salvation. Maybe you're referring to "my Father is greater than all". Which doesn't answer anything. Verse 30, is speaking on a ontological level. Which only makes my question stand out stronger. I have to spend my time guessing what people mean with these irrelevant quotes, because no one explains their position. Could you explain that big word you used "Ontological "?. When you bring philosophy to reason the bible, then the track goes haywire. The word ontology comes from two Greek words: "Onto", which means existence, or being real, and "Logia", which means science, or study. The word is used both in a philosophical and non-philosophical context. ONTOLOGY IN A PHILOSOPHICAL CONTEXT. In philosophy, ontology is the study of what exists, in general. You believe the bible as the word of God, then verse 30 is a stated fact by the Lord himself. Here below shows he was made lower than the angles . So then, If Jesus is God, how can he be made lower than the angles. Hebrews 2 King James Version (KJV) 7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: Philippians 2 Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC) 5 Let this same attitude and purpose and [humble] mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus: [Let Him be your example in humility:] 6 Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [[b]possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not [c]think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped[d]or retained, 7 But stripped Himself [of all privileges and [e]rightful dignity], so as to assume the guise of a servant (slave), in that He became like men andwas born a human being. 8 And after He had appeared in human form, He abased and humbled Himself [still further] and carried His obedience to the extreme of death, even the death of the cross! 9 Therefore [because He stooped so low] God has highly exalted Him and has [f]freely bestowed on Him the name that is above every name, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted September 30, 2018 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 905 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,646 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,832 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted September 30, 2018 2 hours ago, Follower Of Jesus said: I understand that, everyone makes this point. Like I said, did Jesus know before incarnating as a man? Does Jesus currently in heaven, know the final hour? If the answer is yes to both, then essentially Jesus would know the final hour. If he did, then the Spirit who guided Jesus, wouldn't have told him to say "only the Father knows", as a general statement. Let's ask then, does the Holy Spirit know the final hour? If you're a trinitarian, this puts you in a tight spot. No one has a direct answer. I'm starting to realize no one ever will, because this knowledge is probably hidden. unless you consider what else I wrote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Follower Of Jesus Posted September 30, 2018 Group: Non-Trinitarian Followers: 2 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 72 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 28 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/22/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 30, 2018 44 minutes ago, JohnD said: unless you consider what else I wrote. I did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael37 Posted October 2, 2018 Group: Servant Followers: 21 Topic Count: 241 Topics Per Day: 0.11 Content Count: 6,952 Content Per Day: 3.27 Reputation: 4,870 Days Won: 2 Joined: 07/05/2018 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/23/1954 Share Posted October 2, 2018 On 10/1/2018 at 4:26 AM, Follower Of Jesus said: I understand that, everyone makes this point. Like I said, did Jesus know before incarnating as a man? Does Jesus currently in heaven, know the final hour? If the answer is yes to both, then essentially Jesus would know the final hour. If he did, then the Spirit who guided Jesus, wouldn't have told him to say "only the Father knows", as a general statement. Let's ask then, does the Holy Spirit know the final hour? If you're a trinitarian, this puts you in a tight spot. No one has a direct answer. I'm starting to realize no one ever will, because this knowledge is probably hidden. As long as you are judge, jury, and executioner you will always claim no-one has an answer. Fortunately the Lamb is worthy to open the 7 seals in the fulness of time and there is no argument can change that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike 2 Posted October 2, 2018 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 499 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 277 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/06/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted October 2, 2018 (edited) On 9/30/2018 at 11:12 AM, JohnD said: Each holds different offices. The Father is the authority. The Son is the Creator / Savior. The Holy Spirit is the revelator / current authority on earth. I cannot prove this theory beyond the shadow of doubt, but I believe it is possible that God (by nature) lives on a much higher plain of existence than we can even comprehend. All three persons of the Godhead. But in order to interact with lower beings like us, the Son and the Holy Spirit had to temporal-ize certain aspects of their omniscience while the Father alone remains in that higher plain... in this way the Son and the Holy Spirit are like Divine Priests (from man to God) and Prophets (from God to man). In Jesus' case, he had to take upon himself aspects of humanity and as a man he did not know what the Father knew. But the Holy Spirit also must "search the deep things of God") 1 Corinthians 2. I would like to tag on to this because what JohnD is saying is the closest to getting it. Where we get confused is thinking that "God" is some separate entity from the Father, Holy Spirit and Son. Together the Father, Holy Spirit and Son make up God. Sorta like a tire, an engine and a body make up a car....the tire is not all of the car and neither is the body or the engine. A car is the sum of its parts and one part all by itself is not a car. There is no such thing as a car if you only have a tire...or a door...or an engine. In the same way we cannot have the WHOLE image of God without all 3 of them coming together. The bible talks plenty about parts in a body and how a body can't function without it's parts. Did it ever occur to you that that basis comes from God using himself as the pattern? The Son does nothing without first seeing the Father do it (John 5-19)....how does he know what to do? ..1Cor 2 .."no one can know the thoughts of God except God's Spirit" . In short, the Son cannot know what the Fathers will is unless it is through the Holy Spirit. What we are seeing is how God functions ....and wouldn't you know it, that's how we function as well (except our spirit is flawed). Everything originates from the Father through the Holy Spirit to the Son ....the Father has to will it first before the Son can possibly know what His will is, and when it comes to his will on earth as it is in heaven, the Father now works through the Holy Spirit in us so that now we as sons of God do his will on earth if we listen to His new Spirit in us rather than our old one. Before anyone starts into repeating the man made mantra " the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God" think about the interaction of them. By themselves we cannot experience God. If we are experiencing the Son then we will in that also have the Holy Spirit and the Father in the mix. If we are experiencing the Holy Spirit directly one on one with our spirit then we are experiencing through the Holy Spirit directly with the Father. (as a son) Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the Holy Spirit is not God, what I am saying is the Holy Spirit is a part of God...without the thoughts of God (the Father) the Holy Spirit has nothing to share. The Son of God (as Jesus) quite plainly said that about himself. Joh 5:19 Jesus told them, "Truly, I tell all of you with certainty, the Son can do nothing on his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing, ...he sees what the Father (the thoughts of God) is doing through the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 2:11). Soooo....the Father decides what to do, the Holy Spirit perfectly knows what that is and perfectly shares it with the Son (the Word) who then works it out perfectly into the physical world. This is the process of something spiritual creating something out into the physical. Again, this is how we create as well !! I know I'm going to have a drink, but I don't know what or when. I will finally decide in my soul (deep thoughts) it is time to have a drink and the part of me that decides (my spirit) how to create in the world will direct my body to choose a case of beer or a glass of water. Only my deep thoughts know the exact time. Edited October 3, 2018 by Mike 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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