Steve_S Posted November 5, 2018 Group: Servant Followers: 25 Topic Count: 275 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 5,208 Content Per Day: 1.00 Reputation: 1,893 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/02/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted November 5, 2018 1 hour ago, shiloh357 said: You are definitely led by "a" spirit, but it is not the Holy Spirit. Removed from thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted November 6, 2018 Share Posted November 6, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, shiloh357 said: The problem is that you think that the term "Hermeneutics" and the process of literary analysis came into being at the same time. Every language from time immemorial had a grammar system, a idioms, syntax, cultural references, figures of speech, plays on word and they all poetry, law, prophecy, proverbs, historical narratives, everything that any modern language has. So even before we called it "hermeneutics" the process of interpretation and literary analysis has always existed. The problem for you is that hermeneutics robs you of control. You're very domineering and controlling and you demand it be your way or the highway. Anything that robs you of power or control, you seek to denigrate. People use hermeneutics to claim that their faulty interpretations are correct when anyone can see they are not. Those who use hermeneutics will play around with the rules of interpretation when it suits their purposes. Again, the law of hermeneutics won't allow for prophecies to be found in books of poetry or history, yet those who promote hermeneutics will break this law because they have no choice if they wish to have any credibility among those who believe scripture. This complex system that Enoob introduced in this thread has not existed all along. Yes, people have always read the Bible and tried to get the correct meaning, but that is not hermeneutics. You have hijacked simple reading comprehension and call that hermeneutics, which it is not. That article Enoob posted shows where it came from and who it was named after. It is an actual system, and there are two ways to use it. You can use literal hermeneutics or figurative hermeneutics and come up with different interpretations. You can use the same form and come up with different views, so it doesn't even accomplish what you claim it does. All you do when someone disagrees with you is claim they are using sloppy hermeneutics, when you could be the one not using it correctly. Who is to say? I suppose you could pray to Hermes and ask him, but will the spirit behind the old trickster, liar and thief answer you, and how you can you trust him if he does? You can make people think you are an expert in something when you are not by claiming you are using hermeneutics. If they use it and don't agree, you claim it is sloppy. If they don't use it, you claim they can't interpret it correctly without it. Edited November 6, 2018 by Butero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted November 6, 2018 Share Posted November 6, 2018 1 hour ago, enoob57 said: God instructed to use written communication unto Moses thus we have the Pentateuch... written communication is a literary aspect bound by rules to decipher intent of writing and it is objective in format by those rules... much of the charismatic influenced people of today disregard this particular aspect of God's written communication and transfer it into I have read it and my heart says, which is to be taken by all else is the communication from The Holy Spirit, and this becomes an untestable subjective extravaganza of self authorized dribble... I don't look at it like that. I am saying a person can simply read the Bible straight through with the Holy Spirit to guide them and understand it. The epistles were letters to churches. The people simply read them and knew what they meant. They didn't have to turn to a complicated system like hermeneutics to understand them, and we don't either. The Bible is not that hard. Even when there is something that seems difficult at first, the true answer won't come through hermeneutics. It will come through reading, re-reading and asking God for help. He will give it, though it may take time. It took me many times of reading Romans to get the truth on a division in the letter, but it eventually came. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted November 6, 2018 Share Posted November 6, 2018 1 hour ago, enoob57 said: No I don't give much attention to superstition or folklore Below quoted material: Hermeneutics From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to navigationJump to search "Philosophical hermeneutics" redirects here. For other uses, see Hermeneutics (disambiguation). For the history of hermeneutics, see History of hermeneutics. Hermeneutics (/ˌhɜːrməˈnjuːtɪks/)[1] is the theory and methodology of interpretation,[2][3] especially the interpretation of biblical texts, wisdom literature, and philosophical texts.[4][5] Modern hermeneutics includes both verbal and non-verbal communication[6][7] as well as semiotics, presuppositions, and pre-understandings. Hermeneutics has been broadly applied in the humanities, especially in law, history and theology. Hermeneutics was initially applied to the interpretation, or exegesis, of scripture, and has been later broadened to questions of general interpretation.[8] The terms hermeneutics and exegesis are sometimes used interchangeably. Hermeneutics is a wider discipline which includes written, verbal, and non-verbal[6][7] communication. Exegesis focuses primarily upon the word and grammar of texts. Hermeneutic, as a count noun in the singular, refers to some particular method of interpretation (see, in contrast, double hermeneutic). Etymology[edit] Hermeneutics is derived from the Greek word ἑρμηνεύω (hermeneuō, "translate, interpret"),[9] from ἑρμηνεύς (hermeneus, "translator, interpreter"), of uncertain etymology (R. S. P. Beekes (2009) suggests a Pre-Greek origin).[10] The technical term ἑρμηνεία (hermeneia, "interpretation, explanation") was introduced into philosophy mainly through the title of Aristotle's work Περὶ Ἑρμηνείας ("Peri Hermeneias"), commonly referred to by its Latin title De Interpretatione and translated in English as On Interpretation. It is one of the earliest (c. 360 B.C.) extant philosophical works in the Western tradition to deal with the relationship between language and logic in a comprehensive, explicit and formal way. The early usage of "hermeneutics" places it within the boundaries of the sacred.[11] A divine message must be received with implicit uncertainty regarding its truth. This ambiguity is an irrationality; it is a sort of madness that is inflicted upon the receiver of the message. Only one who possesses a rational method of interpretation (i.e., a hermeneutic) could determine the truth or falsity of the message.[12] Folk etymology[edit] Hermes, messenger of the gods. Folk etymology places its origin with Hermes, the mythological Greek deity who was the 'messenger of the gods'.[13] Besides being a mediator between the gods and between the gods and men, he led souls to the underworld upon death. Hermes was also considered to be the inventor of language and speech, an interpreter, a liar, a thief and a trickster.[13] These multiple roles made Hermes an ideal representative figure for hermeneutics. As Socrates noted, words have the power to reveal or conceal and can deliver messages in an ambiguous way.[13] The Greek view of language as consisting of signs that could lead to truth or to falsehood was the essence of Hermes, who was said to relish the uneasiness of those who received the messages he delivered. Let Scholarship be reduced to folklore and will just forget the 'study to show yourself approved' and what everyone thinks or feels will be the rules …. While I don't agree with your methods of interpretation, I want to thank you for being so open and honest as to post this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted November 6, 2018 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,171 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,445 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Author Share Posted November 6, 2018 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Butero said: While I don't agree with your methods of interpretation, I want to thank you for being so open and honest as to post this. did you see folk etymology? Do you understand what that means? And do you see etymology above that do you know what their doing with all that? Edited November 6, 2018 by enoob57 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted November 6, 2018 Share Posted November 6, 2018 (edited) 23 minutes ago, enoob57 said: did you see folk etymology? Do you understand what that means? And do you see etymology above that do you know what their doing with all that? I most certainly do know what it is saying. It is a pagan system of interpretation, named after the idol god Hermes. There is no question it was inspired by this god, or it wouldn't be named after him. This was not designed to interpret the Bible. People have taken it and tried to use it on the Bible, but that was not it's original design. You can't reduce Holy Scripture to literature. And you have not explained how you can accept prophecy in books of poetry or history, when you use hermeneutics? You also can't show any scripture where we are told to use any system to interpret the Bible. We are told the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth. Thank you again Enoob. Edited November 6, 2018 by Butero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted November 6, 2018 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,171 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,445 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Author Share Posted November 6, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Butero said: ...People use hermeneutics to claim that their faulty interpretations are correct when anyone can see they are not. Those who use hermeneutics will play around with the rules of interpretation when it suits their purposes. Again, the law of hermeneutics won't allow for prophecies to be found in books of poetry or history, yet those who promote hermeneutics will break this law because they have no choice if they wish to have any credibility among those who believe scripture. This is totally incorrect and nowhere is it written that if poetry it cannot be prophetical or most of the Davidic Psalms would not be interpreted as they are by those who adhere to a objective study of Scripture... You really need to think about this whole course you are on: you are saying I read and read and then it is The Holy Spirits job to instruct me what about the gifts assigned to The Body of Christ by God? 1 Cor 12:28-29 28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? KJV you have to agree if is to come only from The Holy Spirit this verse is incorrect... 3 hours ago, Butero said: This complex system that Enoob introduced in this thread has not existed all along. Yes, people have always read the Bible and tried to get the correct meaning, but that is not hermeneutics. You have hijacked simple reading comprehension and call that hermeneutics, which it is not. That article Enoob posted shows where it came from and who it was named after. It is an actual system, and there are two ways to use it. You can use literal hermeneutics or figurative hermeneutics and come up with different interpretations. You can use the same form and come up with different views, so it doesn't even accomplish what you claim it does. Perhaps everyone will realize that first presented content of any learning system is quite overwhelming … in scholarship it is called the learning curve but all will agree that according to The Scripture it is 'work' indicator 'workman' 2 Tim 2:15 15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. KJV What this work is like Isa 28:9-10 9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: KJV and because the work is intense and not pleasurable to the flesh many give in to thoughts and feelings of others or themselves claiming it is of God … however God cannot be mocked and the workman who has with all his mind searched and studied... God rewards according to His Promise Jer 29:11-13 11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end. 12 Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you. 13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. KJV at first glance you would think this is what I do so I am right... * however I know this is speaking of motivation of force (how bad you want to know God is by the amount of heart/effort and God rewards only all)… How I know what I am claiming is Biblically correct is this verse placed in conjunction with this above Eccl 12:8-14 8 Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity. 9 And moreover, because the preacher was wise, he still taught the people knowledge; yea, he gave good heed, and sought out, and set in order many proverbs. 10 The preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and that which was written was upright, even words of truth. 11 The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd. 12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh. 13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil. KJV No one shall pull the wool over God's eyes only the fool in heart says he can.... for it is Scripture alone with a proper contextual literary analysis called rightly dividing 2Tim 2:15 with God Own promise of reward 2 Tim 3:15-17 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. KJV 3 hours ago, Butero said: It will come through reading, re-reading and asking God for help. He will give it, though it may take time. It took me many times of reading Romans to get the truth on a division in the letter, but it eventually came. After laboring in The Scriptures with you above and you still hold to this … it on you sir not on me Edited November 6, 2018 by enoob57 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted November 6, 2018 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,171 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,445 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Author Share Posted November 6, 2018 57 minutes ago, enoob57 said: did you see folk etymology? Do you understand what that means? And do you see etymology above that do you know what their doing with all that? 36 minutes ago, Butero said: I most certainly do know what it is saying. It is a pagan system of interpretation, named after the idol god Hermes. There is no question it was inspired by this god, or it wouldn't be named after him. This was not designed to interpret the Bible. People have taken it and tried to use it on the Bible, but that was not it's original design. You can't reduce Holy Scripture to literature. And you have not explained how you can accept prophecy in books of poetry or history, when you use hermeneutics? You also can't show any scripture where we are told to use any system to interpret the Bible. We are told the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth. Thank you again Enoob. No the title heading by wiki- etymology: is origins of a word by scholastic content another words it can be traced in books written down found in study... folk etymology : is another name type of folklore or mixing of definition and changing what is written down... Folk etymology Folk etymology or reanalysis – sometimes called pseudo-etymology, popular etymology, or analogical reformation – is a change in a word or phrase resulting from the replacement of an unfamiliar form by a more familiar one. The form or the meaning of an archaic, foreign, or otherwise unfamiliar word is reanalyzed as resembling more familiar words or morphemes. Rebracketing is a form of folk etymology in which a word is broken down or "bracketed" into a new set of supposed elements. Back-formation, creating a new word by removing or changing parts of an existing word, is often based on folk etymology surely you can grasp the significance that this is not scholastic credibility... the etymology above it is the scholastic reliance (the searched out truth of topic)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frienduff thaylorde Posted November 6, 2018 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 17 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 13,256 Content Per Day: 5.34 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 62 Joined: 07/07/2017 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/25/1972 Share Posted November 6, 2018 2 hours ago, Butero said: I don't look at it like that. I am saying a person can simply read the Bible straight through with the Holy Spirit to guide them and understand it. The epistles were letters to churches. The people simply read them and knew what they meant. They didn't have to turn to a complicated system like hermeneutics to understand them, and we don't either. The Bible is not that hard. Even when there is something that seems difficult at first, the true answer won't come through hermeneutics. It will come through reading, re-reading and asking God for help. He will give it, though it may take time. It took me many times of reading Romans to get the truth on a division in the letter, but it eventually came. Exactly . and anytime the scriptures say something so plain and clear , YET if it contradicts THIER OWN man taught theology , THEY SAY you doing sloppy hermanutics . YEAH . THEY do that . an example ., remember where both peter and paul TALK about HAVING BEEN MADE ACTUAL PARTAKERS of THE HOLY GHOST and then they fell away, SAYS it VERY Plain , BUT herumetics and context , SURE SEEM TO TWIST IT , TO FIT OSAS HERMUNETICS ONE O ONE . I SHUN mans ways . ALL we need IS THE HOLY SPIRIT . THEY WROTE LETTERS TO CHURCHS , NOT SECRETE CODES ONLY HERMUENTICS CAN HELP YA UNDERSTAND . NOPE I shun herumentics to the pits of the abyss. TO the pits . I want nothing , nothing to do withit . HOLY GHOST . Let the people mock , I GOT MY HOPE . NOW raise those hands up and SOUND OUT CONTNOUS PRAISES to the LORD . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted November 6, 2018 Share Posted November 6, 2018 8 hours ago, Davida said: This is a problem , because in my time here, there have been too numerous to count numbers of people who believed and taught some really crazy blatant error on this forum whilst they claimed they were lead by the "Holy Spirit to do so" and they ended up eventually banned from the forum. So how is it proven that it is the Holy Spirit that leads if there isn't some agreed upon doctrines & a methodology of reading and interpreting the scriptures to follow like Hermeneutics? In a college course I was first introduced briefly to principles of Hermeneutics, but it was not being applied to Biblical texts. People that do use hermeneutics don't always come to the same conclusions, just like those who do not use hermeneutics don't always come to the same conclusions. I found Jesus only Apostolic believers that talked about how great hermeneutics are. It doesn't stop error. I have seen a lot of people that use it come up with crazy doctrines. But the main thing is, hermeneutics is a system of interpretation designed for secular literature, named after an idol god, that some Christians took and tried to apply to the Bible. Neither Jesus nor the Apostles tell us to use such a system in our study. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. A little while, and ye shall not see me; and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I got to the Father. John 16:12-16 Jesus never says Hermes will lead us into the truth, or that there are many things we need to know, but the Greeks will devise a new system called Hermeneutics, and we need to faithfully follow their system and come to all truth. He said that the Spirit of truth will come and "guide you into all truth." If anyone can show scripture that tells us that we cannot trust the Spirit to lead us into the truth, and we must add a pagan system of interpretation to what the Holy Spirit shows us, I will consider it. Study to show thyself approved does not tell us we do that using hermeneutics or any other system. It never gives us a method of study, just to study. It is amazing to me how people are arguing against the scriptures to claim the Holy Spirit is not adequate to teach us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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