Who is the Whore of babylon

[Revelation Man]

1 hour ago, Royff said:

If you got something for us to discuss, bring it here, I'm not going looking for someone's blog from the pass. 

It's on this site.............a thread. If you ask for something and then play pretend...that's funny.

[Diaste]

3 hours ago, Royff said:

I see you disagree with the way I presented my case, in that you seems to be saying that I’m judging my brother. Which is a common cop out when some people can’t explain their disobedience to clearly stated facts in scripture that they plan to ignore and continue down the road of sin. They often uses Paul statement of freedom in Christ as justification to continue living in sin.  I’ve seen this use in this way to justify all types of sin.

 

Yes. And that would be wrong. I think it better to use the occassion to make our kin think. I agree with you on xmas thing, for other reasons.

3 hours ago, Royff said:

Basically, Paul was speaking of, and there are still people today that think that what they eat determines their relationship with God or their holiness before God. I’ve even heard someone state here in this forum state that what is sin to one may not be sin to another, who determine what is sin, man or God?

There is scripture to support this.

That doesn’t mean that I can have sex with a man and it's not sin because I have freedom in Christ and it would be sin for you because you see it as sin.

Specifically forbidden even though that is not exactly what Paul says.

 

3 hours ago, Royff said:

Its sin whether you and I see it as sin or not, the reason its sin is because God says its sin, yea’ Paul’s statement on freedom in Christ has been twisted and misused throughout the history of the church to defend the sinful lifestyle. But Paul went on to ask a question, should I use my freedom in Christ as a mean of living in sin, God forbids. You have freedom in Christ to eat whatever you desire because whatever you eat will pass through the digestive and discharged. But we don’t have freedom in Christ to decide for ourselves what is sin and what is not sin because then we become our own God.

 

Not totally true. There is an objective standard. People can and do burden themselves in their thoughts on what constitutes freedom and what does not. Its not that people can create the objective standard or add to it, but subjectively they do and sometimes it's through behavior of others. As Paul says,  meat sacrificed to idols means different things to different people. 

3 hours ago, Royff said:

If God clearly states that something is pagan tradition, our freedom in Christ does not give us the right to continue to practice this evil tradition. We either change and struggle to remove that thing that God say is heathen from our lives our we ignore the Lord’s warning because we are too hooked in pagan tradition to let go, so we run to Paul’s statement to clear our conscience and continue to live what God says is heathen.

 

First, the command is to have no gods before Him. Its not that other gods are forbidden, its that we are to recognize our Father as the God of gods. His ways come first. There are many gods both large and small, powerful and weak, and all bow before Him. I'll bet we all have a few mini gods in our life.

3 hours ago, Royff said:

Am I saying that everybody who has a pagan Christmas tree in their home are going to hell, no, that is not my call to make. But one thing I do know is that my bringing this idol into my home offends God, and how do I know this; because He states it in His word. Should I use my freedom in Christ to offend God? And it's clear that God is offended by His people copying the ways of the heathen. God clearly presented in this what it is that He’s offended by, its a tree being cut down and nailed in place as an idol that’s been presented to another god being placed in the homes of His children. Need I remind you that our God is a jealous God who will not share His Glory with any other god.

 

For you personally thats true and I agree with you on this. Not everyone does. Should we rob others of freedom because we are not free in the same manner? It seems like casting a stumbling block when there was no cause. If no one is going to perish because of it then whats the harm?

3 hours ago, Royff said:

No, it goes deeper than; I can have that idol in my house because of my freedom in Christ, no, God forbids!  The tree is an idol, and my freedom in Christ does not allow for idol worship.

 

But where does it end? Pictures? Those could be considered forbidden images per the commandments. What about sports trophys? Graven images. The real issue is the worship of those items. If someone is worshipping these inanimate objects then I would say thats a problem. If not, why should we care?

3 hours ago, Royff said:

I remember one time having a conversation with a friend, and a very heated one at that because  at the time I did not see anything wrong with a Christmas tree in my home. So you see, I was not always in the camp that I’m now in, I truly believed that my friend was going overboard with this tree thing. But this drove me to do a deeper study for myself, after my study I had to ask myself, do I love that tree more than I love God who is clearly offended by that tree, that idol in my home.

 

And that's excellent. For you. What about the person who feels they honor the birth of Jesus in total sincerity during this time of year? 

Is it right to take that from them simply because you and I do not feel free to to do so? I'd say no.

3 hours ago, Royff said:

This is like the golden calf of the Hebrews, they wanted to serve the God of Moses and at the same time serve the god of the heathens. The same thing Constantine did, combine the God of the Christians with the heathen gods. You don’t think God was offended by that? Do you believe that the Christian’s freedom in Christ allow for this? They really need to stop the abuse of that verse of scripture.

 

They were worshipping the calf. That's always going to be wrong. You and i do not know who may or may not be bending the knee to a perceived idol. 

3 hours ago, Royff said:

Be careful of that freedom in Christ which can become freedom runamuck, and in the end become, in the words of devil worshiper Aleister Crowley “do as thou wilt is the whole of the law” and I will add; do as thy will because of your freedom in Christ, that is what this abuse of the words of Paul has come down to today.

 

Sure there's abuse. Not an occasion to rob the kin of peace and freedom when they may be weaker or stronger in the faith or have various perceptions that differ from ours.

3 hours ago, Royff said:

We must be very careful how we use Paul’s words for we in the process could be forwarding the devil worshiper’s gospel of “Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law!

 

I hope I’ve presented my case in clear and easy to understand language.

Sure did. Looking forward to your response. 

[Mystic_Pizza]

6 hours ago, Royff said:

I’ve even heard someone state here in this forum state that what is sin to one may not be sin to another, who determine what is sin, man or God? That doesn’t mean that I can have sex with a man and it's not sin because I have freedom in Christ and it would be sin for you because you see it as sin.

I think you might be talking about something I said earlier, but you took it way out of context, here- this is what I meant when I posted what I posted in here: sin is sin is sin. Period. But if someone thinks that it is a sin to go to church on Sunday as opposed to Saturday, for that person, it is a sin- because their 'tender conscience' tells them it is. This does not mean that it is a sin for everyone, because I'm sure God can be praised on Sunday, Saturday, and any other day of the week - but to the man or woman who believes it to be a sin, it is sin, for them. This has nothing to do with actual sinful behavior such as you mentioned. I never said anything about this justifying true, sinful behavior such as you stated. 

Freedom in forgiveness doesn't mean freedom to sin. It means that we are free of the condemnation that awaited us before we turned to Jesus, admitted our sins and sinful nature, and accepted the free gift of salvation that He offered. It means we have a Mediator, Jesus, to go before the Father- and because He became sin for us, and took God's wrath in our place, and because of our acceptance, this is truly all we need. God leads us in the directions He wants us to go, if we walk with Him and want to follow.

Romans 8: 1-5

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.

 

and 26-30:

 

In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God. And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

[Diaste]

 

13 hours ago, Royff said:

So this is something totally different, what God is speaking of here is something that God is offended by. 

Indeed. But it's not the message. I don't know if we should be doing this in this thread. Guess we'll wait for an Admin to tell us to take it elsewhere.

I'm with you on this. I think you made a fine personal decision and the passion and conviction are apparent. That's a good thing and the kin need people to make a stand else how do we help and show our concern for the brethren?  I have not done the holiday thing for decades, except Thanksgiving, I can support the giving of thanks and the context. But the rest? In my mind Xmas is in the wrong context and the premise is false. It's not Jesus birth and it's during the winter solstice, a time when the birth of the new year is celebrated, and I choose not to participate. 

But I do not know what sincere beliefs are in the hearts and minds of my kin during this time. If some or many are sincerely celebrating Jesus birth at this time then that's not a bad thing. If my brothers and sisters are at peace with this and are fully convinced then it's a moment of truth and love in Christ and for Him; makes no difference what others do and say and believe. Our peace with God and Jesus is in each of us, in our hearts and minds, and the sincerity of our love for Him. I will not take that away from my family because of my personal feelings on the matter. No one should compel behavior of any kind as it robs the freedom of choice through personal conviction.

Are some going too far? Of course. But they are still our near kinsman in Christ who is the Lord of all; the Lord of both the weak and the strong, both the high and the low, rich and poor. I say bring your message as often as you can, it's one I agree with. Let me show you what I see.

3 For the customs of the peoples are worthless; they cut down a tree from the forest; it is shaped with a chisel by the hands of a craftsman. 4 They adorn it with silver and gold and fasten it with hammer and nails, so that it will not totter. 5 Like scarecrows in a cucumber patch, their idols cannot speak. They must be carried because they cannot walk. Do not fear them, for they can do no harm, and neither can they do any good.” - Jeremiah 10

They have no real power. Jeremiah here is taking about all idols:

8 But they are altogether senseless and foolish, instructed by worthless idols made of wood! 14 Everyone is senseless and devoid of knowledge. Every goldsmith is put to shame by his idols. For his molten images are a fraud; they have no breath in them. 15 They are worthless, a work to be mocked. In the time of their punishment, they will perish. - Jeremiah 10

The IMAGES fate is sealed, the people have grace to repent of these works and our love for them reveals this. Jeremiah condemns the IMAGES.

We all know the story of David stealing Bathsheba from Uriah. What a disgusting act. I don't know what could be more offensive to the Lord than stealing the wife of another man and then assassinating the husband. Here's how the Lord approached the matter:

1 The Lord sent Nathan to David. When he came to him, he said, “There were two men in a certain town, one rich and the other poor. 2 The rich man had a very large number of sheep and cattle, 3 but the poor man had nothing except one little ewe lamb he had bought. He raised it, and it grew up with him and his children. It shared his food, drank from his cup and even slept in his arms. It was like a daughter to him. 4 “Now a traveler came to the rich man, but the rich man refrained from taking one of his own sheep or cattle to prepare a meal for the traveler who had come to him. Instead, he took the ewe lamb that belonged to the poor man and prepared it for the one who had come to him.”

Nathan tells a story, a parable, a metaphor. No condemnation.

5 David burned with anger against the man and said to Nathan, “As surely as the Lord lives, the man who did this must die! 6 He must pay for that lamb four times over, because he did such a thing and had no pity.”  - 2 Samuel 12

The king is rightfully offended not yet realizing what is happening. But the approach caused the king to think, made aware of a dire situation.

7 Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man! This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says:  9 Why did you despise the word of the Lord by doing what is evil in his eyes? You struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword and took his wife to be your own. You killed him with the sword of the Ammonites. - 2 Samuel 12

Even here Nathan brings no condemnation to David personally, punishment is on the way by the hand of the Lord surely, but not by Nathan. David is guilty and everyone knew it. He did those things in reality and there were dozens of witnesses and yet no personal attack was made by Nathan or the Lord God.

13 Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” - 2 Samuel 12

And David comes to understanding through truth and patience and concern of his friend Nathan and the Lord, and therefore no defense. I really like this event. Much to learn about how we should conduct ourselves in interacting with our family. David arrives at the conclusion and is not forced. David is not greater or lesser than any of us, we are all in Christ and we all should be approached with patience and love, if at all possible. I'm not perfect in this. I try, but sometimes...

But to iterate a thing;

 Now about food sacrificed to idols: We know that “We all possess knowledge.” But knowledge puffs up while love builds up. 2 Those who think they know something do not yet know as they ought to know. 3 But whoever loves God is known by God.

4 So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that “An idol is nothing at all in the world” and that “There is no God but one.” 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

7 But not everyone possesses this knowledge.  So this weak brother or sister, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge.12 When you sin against them in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. - 1 Cor 8

Verse 7 is why we must be careful of our brethren when we speak or act in some circumstance. We can sin against another, and Jesus, through personal actions by our own freedom. Of course there's much more on this and I could go on and on. 

This doesn't mean we are to abolish the law, the objective standard of behavior, but we are to show care and concern for others in cases as the above, which can be broadly applied, even to the sacrificing of our freedom and knowledge. 

Again, I agree with the message. Maybe consider the presentation to effect change instead of resistance.

 

 

 

[Mystic_Pizza]

Your mentioning of the different denominations, Royff, I don't know a lot about any of them except maybe Catholicism- and I don't know a whole lot about that one either, except that I know a lot of people, personally, who are Catholic- and the whole setup (of Catholicism) has always disturbed me- I won't even go into the 'why', it just always has.

Anyway...

I was raised in a particular denomination, and attended through early adulthood (20s), then that particular church sort of split off, and part of it went into a new, non-denominational church of their own. I had a issues with a couple of things a person had to 'believe' in order to be a 'member' or the original church I attended, and that was the reason for veering off into the non-denominational one- it wasn't that I didn't 'believe' in a particular thing anymore, it was more that I...wondered about it, and wasn't sure in my own heart about it- not that anyone is wondering what the 'thing' was, but just in case, it had to do with the timing of the rapture. In the church I attended you had to believe it would happen at a certain time- and I just had questions about that, lol-

ANYway...(I veer off a lot, haha).....

I enjoy non-denominational churches that preach the bible, from the bible- and don't go off into all of the various 'interpretations' and insist that you believe this, that, or the other or you are basically lost- now just so there are no misunderstandings, I'm not saying that I don't believe in 'rules', but I think everyone gets what I mean here- I think at the end of the day, as I stated way back somewhere in here, God knows the heart of each of us- the deep-down thoughts, motivations, where we stand on salvation, etc.- and I believe that there are true Christians in all sorts of places where people wouldn't expect them to be- by that, I mean some denominations where some would say, "Omg! You CAN'T believe THAT and STILL be a CHRISTIAN!!!!"- I admit, I've been guilty of thinking that way myself sometimes, lol- I believe that since God works in our lives once we give ourselves over to Him, to salvation, all of the things I've mentioned earlier...that if there is error, say....in a denomination a person is in where there truly is wrong, dangerous teaching, God will 'nudge', as it were- if we are walking according to what Romans 8 is telling us- I know there are some who will say, "but there are all kinds of people caught up in false teaching, thinking they are doing the right thing, etc., etc,.!!!"- and again, I go back to the thought that God knows the innermost heart of each and every one of us...and He is well able to nudge and lead someone in the right direction.

 

Quote

 

2 Timothy 1:12

That is why I am suffering as I am. Yet this is no cause for shame, because I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him until that day.

 

 

[Mystic_Pizza]

Just as an afterthought, here....I don't know how many on here have ever read anything by Johanna Michaelson, she wrote a book called, "The Beautiful Side of Evil"...she was the sister-in-law at that time of Hal Lindsey (the Late Great Planet Earth guy, for those ancient ones like me who remember the book, lol)- she was involved in some really creepy business, with channeling and working for a 'healer', the ones who did surgery-type things while in a trance, and the person they were operating on was awake but supposedly felt no pain, etc.- it was in another country she was working although I can't recall which one, Mexico perhaps, I don't remember. Anyway, she felt she was truly doing "The Lord's work", as a Christian...but then slowly began to realize that it wasn't, and I always felt it was because God knew her heart, and knew she thought she was doing right and good- but because it was, as Royff said somewhere on here 'doctrines of devils', the Lord, knowing her heart...nudged her away from it, and she later exposed it and wrote about what had happened to her. It was an interesting book.

 

Ok, I'm done now, lol.

Edited December 29, 2018 by Mystic_Pizza
typo

[Blood Bought 1953]

On 12/28/2018 at 5:34 AM, Diaste said:

Some ideas are out there I agree. I have heard some of the same things; Nazi's on the moon, etc.

I don't think there are better things to do when it comes to growing in the Spirit, growing in truth, increasing understanding of the Lord and spiritual understanding. This is all a part of those things.

I have to agree with Royff on the fundamentals. Scripture does say those things. But where the real violation occurs is in having any god before the Most High. It's the heart in all cases and, what the mind conjures.

Personally I stay away from certain things if they are based on a lie. 

We have freedom. We are to be convinced in our own mind of the truth and we will bear the consequences. This is the bottom line, in my mind;

Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. 2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 

3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does,

(either way, whether free or bond, we are not to judge the convictions of our kin in certain matters like days and food; and I would extend that to harmless activities such as music and books as well)

for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for ourselves alone. 8 If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister a ? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11 It is written:

“ ‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,

‘every knee will bow before me;

every tongue will acknowledge God.’ ” b

12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God.

13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister. 14 I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean. 

15 If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy someone for whom Christ died.

(this is the fundamental call to proper behavior between us and our spiritual kin)

16 Therefore do not let what you know is good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.

So I agree with Royff on the basics, just not in the way he presents his case.

 

I am intrigued about this Nazis on the Moon thing ......what did you hear?Not tying to be a wise guy.....

[Diaste]

13 hours ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

 

I am intrigued about this Nazis on the Moon thing ......what did you hear?Not tying to be a wise guy.....

Where else? YouTube! lol And not just the movie Iron Sky, which is very hard to watch.

I should really quit watching certain things on that site, I just get so...caught up...Aliens, UFO's, Bigfoot (he's real! hehe), Area 51, and on and on...

[Diaste]

21 hours ago, Royff said:

I’ll say this and leave it alone, you say I should offer change instead of resistance, but I’m not offering anything but what thus saith the Lord. I’m not responsible for how people respond to the clearly written word of God. If what’s being said offend them and they resist the truth is it the fault of the massager? I have tried to be respectful even when being insulted, is it my fault because the truth makes some people angry or am I supposed to waterdown the gospel because it hurts someone's feelings.

 

But I don’t see where I did anything wrong, if I had went back and forth casting insults I could understand your statement. When there is cause of correction I will willingly accept my mistakes as I did recently when I took a person’s comment out of context the person brought it to my attention and I took responsibility for by actions and will always to the best of my ability as I’m responsible for before Christ, but I will not waterdown the the word of God because it offend some people.

 

The day the gospel stops offending people that’s the day it stops being the gospel of Christ. What we are discussing here is part of identifying the Whore of Babylon, is not one person or one location, it's a spirit that indwells people, those people are all over the world and it's not just Catholics, remember she has harlots daughters. Who are her daughters? They the ones who God delivered from her clutches and sent them to America to be educated in the true gospel, but what happened was they brought with them their Babylonian beliefs and installed them or mixed them in the gospel in the churches they were building.

 

The whore of Babylon is running wild and unchecked in the Christians churches, right now the whore of Babylon have Christian practicing kundalini yoga in the temple of the Lord. You see, this is what makes some Christians angry at me, yes, by all means, expose the church of Rome as the whore of Babylon, but don’t include her daughters, the re-reformed protestant church that has returned to her lover, Babylon.

 

When we discuss the whore of Babylon are we supposed to ignore its infiltration of the churches of America. This is what make the resistors to the gospel angry because their plot against the church is exposed. We can’t talk about the whore of Babylon and leave out the Baptist, the Evangelical and all denominations of the re-reformed protestant churches because most now take their marching orders from the pope of Rome.

 

If you really want to know who the whore of Babylon is just look at the cornerstones of most of the new baptist churches and there you will find the whore of Babylon. Right there in the corner is the mason’s signature,  emblems and symbolism. It's there in the open for all to see, these church hire masons to pastor these Babylonian churches. Where is the whore of Babylon? It's in the evangelical churches, its right here in this forum, it's everywhere and just as Jesus said, its has just about engulf the entire planet.

 

So of course, the good evangelical Christians would love for me to soften my tune and offer change instead of resistance. But what this leads to is compromise or half truths or lies, or shall we call them ‘alternative facts” just like the lying president calls lies, that the good Christians of Babylon, the evangelical included, has placed in the highest office in the world and allow themselves to be used by the whore of Babylon. Where is the whore of Babylon. It even taken control of your one nation under God. Who is the whore of Babylon? It's the entire inhabited earth including the church members of the protestant churches who point the finger at the Roman Catholic church.

The most powerful force behind the rise of Babylon today is the re-reform protestant churches, and of course they would love for me to tone this down, but that would be compromise which I refuse to do.

 

I would rather have man angry at me than to have the Lord tell me, depart from me unfaithful servant!

I totally agree. I have witnessed some frightening things in the church body all due to spiritual corruption. The 'church' today is not much different than non believers. The divorce rate in the 'church' alone tells us that. That evil spirit of merchandise and graft has led to spiritual adultery and it is something we should stand against, and from which we should stay away. 

Of course we should take this stand, it's important and necessary. But I think it's too late. I believe the time has come, and is soon to come, when more stringent applications are required, mere words just ain't cutting the mustard. The people have made the choice to scratch that itch and the church leaders feed them rotting fish instead of good fruit.

The Lord is sending correction and it's our task to let the people know beforehand.

"The day the gospel stops offending people that’s the day it stops being the gospel of Christ."

I agree. But we have to keep in mind we have a large host of Family in Christ. We are all sinners saved by grace, no exceptions. Just because we see people taken in by things which are not good or right does not mean the love of the Lord for them is taken away. On the contrary, the Lord's love drives Him to find His lost sheep. Our actions should reflect this.

What are we? Are we more or less than another? Do we stand alone? Is power within us? Christ is our salvation and that is for everyone. We have nothing apart from Christ. Knowledge, wisdom, understanding, the Spirit of Truth, food, home, etc, are all given to us. A humbling thought, don't ya think?

Speak the truth and win our brethren back to the fold!

 

 

 

 

 

[Mystic_Pizza]

5 hours ago, Royff said:

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think the your main point is that no matter what route we take into the kingdom of darkness it doesn’t matter because God will bring us back to the right road of righteousness because we were predestined to go to heaven because He “foreknew” us. Now this is not an easy one to understand it takes much thought and study. Now on the surface this sound like wonderful news to the true Christian and the fake Christian alike.

This is a bit of a sticky one, here-what I'm really trying to get at, is the fact that God knows the heart of each and every individual, their thoughts, their motives, and yes- the eternal choices that He knows, beforehand, that they will make in regards to Jesus. The bible does say predestined and foreknew...I have no idea and don't quite understand what this means insofar as salvation and those who obtain it goes...it won't be the first time I've read things in the bible that I flat-out 'don't get', but I see things like this as something I need to just take on faith, and believe that even though I don't understand the 'why' behind any of it, God does- and I have to leave it there and trust that He knows far, far more than my little human mind can comprehend.

The problem with this interpretation is that it make God appear as an evil creator or a creator of evil if God creates a person to do evil and another to do good. This is what the Synagogue of Satan accuses God of. So if God intentionally created a person to be evil then that would make God the creator of evil or at least that evil person to be evil. It does not add up with the rest of scripture. If the person was created to be evil how is it their fault that they end in hell if they were pre programmed to and created for hell. Scripture clearly states that anyone who finds themselves in hell put themselves there by their works, the things they did or did not do while they lived. To create a person to be evil and the person become truly evil while he lives and then cast that person into eternal torment just doesn’t sound like the God of the bible, the God of love.

Thing is, I'm not trying to 'interpret' anything, here- all I'm doing is giving an opinion, how it looks to me, the way I see it- for me to try and interpret it would be for me, in my own opinion, to delve deep in to whatever verses pertain to the opinion I'm giving, the origin of the language, Greek, Aramaic, whatever the case may be- dissecting all of it, as it were- all I'm doing is looking at a situation, for the most part, and giving an opinion about it, you know? Truth is, I don't feel the least bit qualified to debate semantics with anyone, because I'm no biblical scholar- and honestly, I feel like I could very well 'interpret' wrongly, and truth be told, that scares me, lol. Anything I say is only my opinion with bible verses here and there thrown in, I try to see things in the way that I think Jesus would have seen them as shown through His actions in the NT. I don't want to judge anyone, or accuse anyone- unless there is blatant sin being committed, such as what happened when the Pharisees brought the adulteress to Jesus and He talked to her about her previous husbands and the fact that she wasn't married to the one she was with at that moment- but He didn't rip into her, He didn't tear her to shreds, He told her, basically, to 'go and sin no more', so He stated that yes, she was sinning. So I'm not trying in any way to cover wrong with 'rose-colored glasses', or anything of the sort- like I said before, sin is sin, period. I think that saying I always thought sounded so lame holds somewhat true: you can hate the sin, but love the sinner. The verse in the bible (again, I won't hunt it down, it's NT, probably in one of the first four books) where Jesus is saying how someone is pointing out the speck in another's eye, yet ignoring the board in their own- that's sort of how I feel- I refuse to sit in judgment on someone other than to say, "you know, the bible says that's wrong, that's a sin", because who am I to judge another, when I'm a sinner saved by grace myself? And the verse about judging not, lest we be judged holds some water with me, lol

When you speak of God intentionally 'created a person to be evil', I don't think that's true at all- I think each person and all beings created, angels included, are unique and have complete free will. What about Lucifer? He's a perfect example of 'creation', and the 1/3 angels who left heaven to follow him, what of them? I believe God created them with free will to think for themselves, to choose- and choose they did. I don't know if they were 'predestined', again, I have no clue about that- but I believe God who knows everything, knew what they would choose- just like He knows what we all will ultimately choose.

I won't go into all of the rest of what you posted, because I'm going to put everyone to sleep with my thoughts on it all, lol- I'll just close with this: I believe that each and everyone of us is a part of the body of Christ, all with different jobs to do- servants, prophets, etc., like it says in the bible- we all have our different areas that we are best at, and that God uses-but we are all a part of the same body, and we all should be working together. Now I have a feeling what I just said might be easily misunderstood so I will explain a little better, lol: I do NOT believe that there is 'one heaven, but all sorts of ways to get there, and it doesn't matter the road we take, we're all going in the same direction'....Salvation through Jesus Christ, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life...NO man comes to the Father except through Me"- this is all I believe. But I believe God works in each of us, individually, in different ways - the way He works in you, may not be the way He works in me, or anyone else on these forums. But. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ, we need to all remember that.