PRETERISM THE NEW FRONTIER

[Larry H]

16 hours ago, Heleadethme said:

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17 hours ago, Heleadethme said:

The apostles and early believers had already entered the new covenant, and still were awaiting a new heavens and new earth, which obviously hadn't/hasn't happened yet.  I tried to show on your other thread why the Law is considered to be fading away/disappearing....simply because it is still being kept by some.... believing Jews  whose conscience is not yet free to discard it, since whatsoever is not of faith is sin (and actually unbelieving Jews who keep the Law as well, of course).  Yes we are citizens already of the new heavens and new earth.....but as scripture says we do not yet see everything put under His feet, His dominion is not yet fully manifested.....but we are still looking forward to that day, when also we will see the redemption of our physical bodies, which obviously also hasn't happened yet.

2Pe 3:2-13

That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Quote

The apostles and early believers had already entered the new covenant, and still were awaiting a new heavens and new earth.

That is because in the preterist view which is not understood by Christian, the New Heavens and Earth was established and realized by the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.

When the letters were written, including Hebrews, during the transitional period, 40 years, from the cross to AD 70, the future to them was AD 70. In turn history to us.

As what the Old and New Heaven and Earth represented is penned in my other postings. 

Since Hebrews was penned concerning the Old and New Covenant, it was soon to disappear. Not some thousands of years later. Why would the writer of Hebrews say that to those Christians our brothers who were waiting for that event. Because it was a near expectation. Read Hebrews 10:37

Hebrews 8:13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

When I see the words soon, at hand, near, at the door etc in the New Testament that is what they mean. BTW everyone I posted  with those expressions has been ignored why is that.

[Larry H]

14 hours ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

The true believers , whether jew or gentile have tasted of the world ,  WHICH is yet to come .  Because we have the Holy Spirit and have tasted and dwell in holiness

and righteous of the Spirit .  We have this in earthen vessles , our body , which is the temple of the Living God.

But just like peter , paul and all , we still await the actual second coming of our LORD .  On that day we caught up with Him.   And the wrath of God is targeted

against those who rejected Him , against the beast , fp,  kings and peoples of this world .   God gonna burn up all evil works and the evil .

But we have tasted of this in part , for God burns the evil works of our evil heart , cleansing us .   And teaches us to walk righteously , soberly , holy and godly in this wicked world

AS we await the coming of the Lord from heaven .  Who on His day will laydown wrath against those who denied Him and had pleasure in unrighteousness.

And we better be with paitent waiting , watching .    For if any man says in his heart , MY LORD delays His coming , OR HE ALREADY CAME

and etc ,   THAT day will come as a theif in the night .  

When  asked you what do you see concerning the near future .      Do you believe that God is working through people right now to bring about WORLD peace and unity .

DO you see a big awakening and gathering which is to come .  

Explain how YOU see this taking place .  Do you see ecumenical unity as a good thing and do you believe it is God at work in these folks .

 

Quote

 

When  asked you what do you see concerning the near future .      Do you believe that God is working through people right now to bring about WORLD peace and unity .

DO you see a big awakening and gathering which is to come .  

 

Quote

Explain how YOU see this taking place .  Do you see ecumenical unity as a good thing and do you believe it is God at work in these folks .

Well said I can see you have a love for God

Yes and no ... Yes God is still at work through the holy Spirit in people.  No ... not according to Jesus about the world.

Matthew 10:34 "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

Jesus  came to bring peace with God.

Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

And that is the only peace that really counts, wouldn't  you say

I can't see the future outside of what the bible may indicate to me, so I cannot make that prediction. 

Quote

Do you see ecumenical unity

There are some 33 thousand Christian denomination around the world, because of doctrinal belief. How do you see it?

Kind Regard and thanks for the opportunity to answer your questions. 

Larry

[FresnoJoe]

2 hours ago, Larry H said:

When were those Old Testament scriptures fulfilled....
or were they already fulfilled....

Luke 21:22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.

The First Testament Of Jesus Christ

“The Lord will give victory to the rest of Judah first, before Jerusalem, so that the people of Jerusalem and the royal line of David will not have greater honor than the rest of Judah. On that day the Lord will defend the people of Jerusalem; the weakest among them will be as mighty as King David! And the royal descendants will be like God, like the angel of the Lord who goes before them! For on that day I will begin to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

“Then I will pour out a spirit of grace and prayer on the family of David and on the people of Jerusalem. They will look on me whom they have pierced and mourn for him as for an only son. They will grieve bitterly for him as for a firstborn son who has died. The sorrow and mourning in Jerusalem on that day will be like the great mourning for Hadad-rimmon in the valley of Megiddo. Zechariah 12:7-11 (New Living Translation)

Is Yet To Be Fulfilled Until Yeshua (Jesus)

For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Matthew 24:27 (Berean Study Bible)

Comes Back Down And Israel Rejoices To See Her King

So when the apostles were with Jesus, they kept asking him, “Lord, has the time come for you to free Israel and restore our kingdom?”

He replied, “The Father alone has the authority to set those dates and times, and they are not for you to know. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you. And you will be my witnesses, telling people about me everywhere—in Jerusalem, throughout Judea, in Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

After saying this, he was taken up into a cloud while they were watching, and they could no longer see him. As they strained to see him rising into heaven, two white-robed men suddenly stood among them. “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why are you standing here staring into heaven? Jesus has been taken from you into heaven, but someday he will return from heaven in the same way you saw him go!” Acts 1:6-11 (English Standard Version)

~

If You Believe That The Jew Should Be Punished Forever

I will cleanse them from all the sins that they have committed against me. I will forgive them for all the sins that they have committed against me and for rebelling against me. Jeremiah 33:8 (GOD'S WORD® Translation)

You Too Could Be A Preterist

and so all Israel will be saved. Even as it is written, "There will come out of Zion the Deliverer, and he will turn away ungodliness from Jacob. Romans 11:26 (New Heart English Bible)

~

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

Love, Your Brother Joe

[Heleadethme]

6 hours ago, Larry H said:

 

That is because in the preterist view which is not understood by Christian, the New Heavens and Earth was established and realized by the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.

When the letters were written, including Hebrews, during the transitional period, 40 years, from the cross to AD 70, the future to them was AD 70. In turn history to us.

As what the Old and New Heaven and Earth represented is penned in my other postings. 

Since Hebrews was penned concerning the Old and New Covenant, it was soon to disappear. Not some thousands of years later. Why would the writer of Hebrews say that to those Christians our brothers who were waiting for that event. Because it was a near expectation. Read Hebrews 10:37

Hebrews 8:13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

When I see the words soon, at hand, near, at the door etc in the New Testament that is what they mean. BTW everyone I posted  with those expressions has been ignored why is that.

Okay, yes, I think I can see what you are saying with those things, I've been thinking about it but need more time to test and digest it.....where it says in 2 Peter about the "elements" being burned up and in Galations about not going back to the weak and beggardly "elements"...the new heavens and new earth being a completely new paradigm of the new covenant.......BUT, and it's an important but......we have to remember that when people are speaking/writing in spirit there is often more than one level to what the Lord is saying.  We need to be hearing the word of God in "stereo" with the ears and mind of Christ.  Gods voice can be like many waters at a time, it's not usually just the trickle of one little creek, if at all. 

There is an important biblical principle of "the spiritual does not come first but the natural, then after that the spiritual".  (1 Cor. 15:46)  Which is a key to apprehending a lot of scripture.  I think we can even see in those verses in 1 Cor. 15 about the old earthy man and the new spiritual man a hint about the old and new covenants.  God's word is so perfect and harmonious, and we don't know the half of it, only glimpse it here and there.  The things to do with Israel belong to the natural realm, the old covenant, the feasts, etc....but which speak of the better - spiritual - things to come.  Israel was the natural ensample/similitude/living parable of the spiritual things to do with the church.  Those passages that the apostles wrote were fulfilled in the natural realm, concerning Israel, but still not all fulfilled in the spiritual realm concerning the church.  We do not yet see all things put under His feet, even now after the destruction of the Temple.....we still only have the earnest of the Spirit.....the times of the Gentiles have not yet been wrapped up and nor have we yet seen the fullness of the Gentiles and the blinders removed from Israel.  So yes, I think I can agree that we could say the wrath of God was fulfilled in the destruction of the physical Temple in Jerusalem...that was the natural fulfillment in the natural realm.....so ALSO we still await the spiritual fulfillment....judgment beginning with His spiritual house, the church who follows the same ensample as Israel of old.  And "soon" to God can also mean a very long time.....just as Peter was saying one day to the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years is as a day.  Take all the time you need to think about these things....not sure if I'm explaining it very well, but hope it will make sense to you. 

I often find on forums we can be arguing one truth against another, when actually both are true or have an element of truth...this might be what is happening here, at least to some extent, and maybe we both need to tweek our understanding a bit to hit the mark of what all those scriptures are saying.

Edited January 9, 2019 by Heleadethme

[frienduff thaylorde]

9 hours ago, Larry H said:

Well said I can see you have a love for God

Yes and no ... Yes God is still at work through the holy Spirit in people.  No ... not according to Jesus about the world.

Matthew 10:34 "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

Jesus  came to bring peace with God.

Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

And that is the only peace that really counts, wouldn't  you say

I can't see the future outside of what the bible may indicate to me, so I cannot make that prediction. 

There are some 33 thousand Christian denomination around the world, because of doctrinal belief. How do you see it?

Kind Regard and thanks for the opportunity to answer your questions. 

Larry

Larry with regards to ecumincal unity that is occurring  , I have one word for it .    FLEE,        and never look back.

its all a sham just sold in different ways to get us all connected , but connected NOT IN CHRIST .    but man its sung by a piper

that knows how to reach any denomination and make it all seem well .    IT AINT .   

Unity IN TRUTH alone and with those who love TRUTH above all , Christ above all, and wont sacrifice any truth is all we need .

Its no accident that unity has become the focus of these days in many different faiths and even among the religions .  Satan is preparing

the mindset for the worship as ONE of the beast .  And is also fast preparing the system too .

Let me give you some key words to look out for .    Building bridges .    beating spears into plowshares .  

You hear of any talking about just going out and making friends type of evangelism ,   focusing on events or etc as to where we can find common unity .  RUN .

Truth is , this is just about everywhere now .    While some are not as far along in the deception of it ,  many are already infected with it to some form or degree.

And most don't even know it .  cause truth is , its sold under the guise of love .   Which if we had any kind of discernment , we would realize

any love that puts the TRUTH NOT above all,  Christ first above all,  WELL that just aint no love , just sensual , but it works .   Not on the lambs it don't .

cause they can whiff , by grace , that stink pile and anything , anything contrary to JESUS ,   when they whiff it will cause an automatic gag reflex .  

[frienduff thaylorde]

3 hours ago, Heleadethme said:

Okay, yes, I think I can see what you are saying with those things, I've been thinking about it but need more time to test and digest it.....where it says in 2 Peter about the "elements" being burned up and in Galations about not going back to the weak and beggardly "elements"...the new heavens and new earth being a completely new paradigm of the new covenant.......BUT, and it's an important but......we have to remember that when people are speaking/writing in spirit there is often more than one level to what the Lord is saying.  We need to be hearing the word of God in "stereo" with the ears and mind of Christ.  Gods voice can be like many waters at a time, it's not usually just the trickle of one little creek, if at all. 

There is an important biblical principle of "the spiritual does not come first but the natural, then after that the spiritual".  (1 Cor. 15:46)  Which is a key to apprehending a lot of scripture.  I think we can even see in those verses in 1 Cor. 15 about the old earthy man and the new spiritual man a hint about the old and new covenants.  God's word is so perfect and harmonious, and we don't know the half of it, only glimpse it here and there.  The things to do with Israel belong to the natural realm, the old covenant, the feasts, etc....but which speak of the better - spiritual - things to come.  Israel was the natural ensample/similitude/living parable of the spiritual things to do with the church.  Those passages that the apostles wrote were fulfilled in the natural realm, concerning Israel, but still not all fulfilled in the spiritual realm concerning the church.  We do not yet see all things put under His feet, even now after the destruction of the Temple.....we still only have the earnest of the Spirit.....the times of the Gentiles have not yet been wrapped up and nor have we yet seen the fullness of the Gentiles and the blinders removed from Israel.  So yes, I think I can agree that we could say the wrath of God was fulfilled in the destruction of the physical Temple in Jerusalem...that was the natural fulfillment in the natural realm.....so ALSO we still await the spiritual fulfillment....judgment beginning with His spiritual house, the church who follows the same ensample as Israel of old.  And "soon" to God can also mean a very long time.....just as Peter was saying one day to the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years is as a day.  Take all the time you need to think about these things....not sure if I'm explaining it very well, but hope it will make sense to you. 

I often find on forums we can be arguing one truth against another, when actually both are true or have an element of truth...this might be what is happening here, at least to some extent, and maybe we both need to tweek our understanding a bit to hit the mark of what all those scriptures are saying.

We must remember .   Their will always be elements of truth in even the darkest lie .     Even satan said , ye shall become as gods knowing good and evil .

And God said , they have become as gods knowing good and evil .

While there may be elements of truth in preterism ,  FLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE    IT .

Heck theirs even elements of truth in buddas sayings , But we sure would not sit under that .

Preterism denies What JESUS made clear .  THE VERY PROMISE the early church waited for , and all true generations since then wait for ,  OUR LORDS fast return

to catch up his church .   If you will not watch ,  I WILL COME on thee as a thief .

How often we hear the early church speak as though the COMING of the LORD drew near .  But remember , and specially near  the end ,  MANY would

no longer even believe this .   ITS in the HOUR they expect not ,  OH HE WILL COME .    Days like lotts and noahs .

SO their is nothing to digest about preterism , unless we want to digest the mix of confusion which will lead to only more confusion .

[Heleadethme]

4 minutes ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

We must remember .   Their will always be elements of truth in even the darkest lie .     Even satan said , ye shall become as gods knowing good and evil .

And God said , they have become as gods knowing good and evil .

While there may be elements of truth in preterism ,  FLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE    IT .

Heck theirs even elements of truth in buddas sayings , But we sure would not sit under that .

Preterism denies What JESUS made clear .  THE VERY PROMISE the early church waited for , and all true generations since then wait for ,  OUR LORDS fast return

to catch up his church .   If you will not watch ,  I WILL COME on thee as a thief .

How often we hear the early church speak as though the COMING of the LORD drew near .  But remember , and specially near  the end ,  MANY would

no longer even believe this .   ITS in the HOUR they expect not ,  OH HE WILL COME .    Days like lotts and noahs .

SO their is nothing to digest about preterism , unless we want to digest the mix of confusion which will lead to only more confusion .

I think Larry may be right in how he is seeing some of those verses, how they are speaking of the old and new covenants and alluding to the destruction of the Temple......but even if he is, what I'm saying is that it doesn't end there...that isn't all those scriptures are alluding to, and nor would I support any teaching that says there is nothing more to come.  Because there is a whole lot more to come...that is also very clear from scripture.  This world is not going to continue on for eternity in this horrible battling between the gospel and unbelief.  There is a day of reckoning and of triumph coming when everything will be put under the feet of Jesus...His rule and reign...and all things restored including the liberation of creation itself.  Even though He is ruling and reigning now....but at the same time we do not yet see His return and the fullness of His rule and reign.  That is still to come.  Not to mention mortality putting on immortality.

[George]

15 hours ago, Larry H said:

Questions

Part 1

1. Who is the Strong man?

2. What is his house?

3. Who is it that comes to bind him?

4   What are the possessions in the strong man's house  that he wants to Spoil (take by conquest)?

5. What "MUST" be done first, before that can happen?

6  Is Satan bound

Part 2

Is the kingdom of God in operation now, or are we still in the darkness.

Colossians 1:13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,

14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Kind Regards

Larry

In this particular passage, this is an individual who was bound by the devil -- the devil is the strongman, within a person who needed to be cast out.  This passage has nothing to do with the passage in Revelation.

Rev 20:1  Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. 
Rev 20:2  And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 
Rev 20:3  and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while. 

The problem is that preterists do not believe a great many things that are VERY OBSERVABLE from the naked eye.

1st -- Since Preterists believe that we're in the Kingdom now, they are not looking toward a 1000-year reign of Jesus.  They believe we're in the Kingdom now ... which is only partially true as you can OBSERVE with the human eye why this is absurd.

2nd -- the fact that the DEVIL is not bound and is running about like a roaring lion shows that we're not in the millennial kingdom.

3rd -- Preterists also cannot observe the simple reality that a STATE of ISRAEL exists today in fulfillment of prophecy.  Just a simple understanding ... if God is in control -- and God allowed the State of Israel to be created .. then God has a plan.  This simple observable fact -- should make every preterist re-examine his understanding of the last days.

Perhaps, just looking around ... seeing what you can see with your very eyes ... that observable events in our generation makes easy to compare Scripture with Scripture.

Preterists believe it was all fulfilled in 70 A.D. but Scripture clearly tells us -- 

Dan 12:4  But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”

Just read the Scriptures in light of events taking place, and you'll find that the book is actually being unsealed completely in our generation!

Your brother in the Lord with much agape love,

George

[Heleadethme]

28 minutes ago, George said:

In this particular passage, this is an individual who was bound by the devil -- the devil is the strongman, within a person who needed to be cast out.  This passage has nothing to do with the passage in Revelation.

Rev 20:1  Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. 
Rev 20:2  And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 
Rev 20:3  and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while. 

The problem is that preterists do not believe a great many things that are VERY OBSERVABLE from the naked eye.

1st -- Since Preterists believe that we're in the Kingdom now, they are not looking toward a 1000-year reign of Jesus.  They believe we're in the Kingdom now ... which is only partially true as you can OBSERVE with the human eye why this is absurd.

2nd -- the fact that the DEVIL is not bound and is running about like a roaring lion shows that we're not in the millennial kingdom.

3rd -- Preterists also cannot observe the simple reality that a STATE of ISRAEL exists today in fulfillment of prophecy.  Just a simple understanding ... if God is in control -- and God allowed the State of Israel to be created .. then God has a plan.  This simple observable fact -- should make every preterist re-examine his understanding of the last days.

Perhaps, just looking around ... seeing what you can see with your very eyes ... that observable events in our generation makes easy to compare Scripture with Scripture.

Preterists believe it was all fulfilled in 70 A.D. but Scripture clearly tells us -- 

Dan 12:4  But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”

Just read the Scriptures in light of events taking place, and you'll find that the book is actually being unsealed completely in our generation!

Your brother in the Lord with much agape love,

George

Amen yes...the devil is still prowling around....we can bind him in individual circumstances, but he is not yet completely bound.

I;m truly  sorry for any who do not have the blessed hope......that hope is a great source of joy and optimism and strength for the believer.

Rom 8:21-25

Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Goodness...if we are even saved by that hope, then what becomes of those who do not have it??

 

 

[Larry H]

6 hours ago, Heleadethme said:

Okay, yes, I think I can see what you are saying with those things, I've been thinking about it but need more time to test and digest it.....where it says in 2 Peter about the "elements" being burned up and in Galations about not going back to the weak and beggardly "elements"...the new heavens and new earth being a completely new paradigm of the new covenant.......BUT, and it's an important but......we have to remember that when people are speaking/writing in spirit there is often more than one level to what the Lord is saying.  We need to be hearing the word of God in "stereo" with the ears and mind of Christ.  Gods voice can be like many waters at a time, it's not usually just the trickle of one little creek, if at all. 

There is an important biblical principle of "the spiritual does not come first but the natural, then after that the spiritual".  (1 Cor. 15:46)  Which is a key to apprehending a lot of scripture.  I think we can even see in those verses in 1 Cor. 15 about the old earthy man and the new spiritual man a hint about the old and new covenants.  God's word is so perfect and harmonious, and we don't know the half of it, only glimpse it here and there.  The things to do with Israel belong to the natural realm, the old covenant, the feasts, etc....but which speak of the better - spiritual - things to come.  Israel was the natural ensample/similitude/living parable of the spiritual things to do with the church.  Those passages that the apostles wrote were fulfilled in the natural realm, concerning Israel, but still not all fulfilled in the spiritual realm concerning the church.  We do not yet see all things put under His feet, even now after the destruction of the Temple.....we still only have the earnest of the Spirit.....the times of the Gentiles have not yet been wrapped up and nor have we yet seen the fullness of the Gentiles and the blinders removed from Israel.  So yes, I think I can agree that we could say the wrath of God was fulfilled in the destruction of the physical Temple in Jerusalem...that was the natural fulfillment in the natural realm.....so ALSO we still await the spiritual fulfillment....judgment beginning with His spiritual house, the church who follows the same ensample as Israel of old.  And "soon" to God can also mean a very long time.....just as Peter was saying one day to the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years is as a day.  Take all the time you need to think about these things....not sure if I'm explaining it very well, but hope it will make sense to you. 

I often find on forums we can be arguing one truth against another, when actually both are true or have an element of truth...this might be what is happening here, at least to some extent, and maybe we both need to tweek our understanding a bit to hit the mark of what all those scriptures are saying.

Your explaining yourself just fine. On this forum we are only having an interchange of thought, and this stuff is not a salvation issue. As the saying goes we can "agree to disagree" and let the chips fall where they may. And I concur with you in many forums I find negative aspersion by those who use intimation to win an argument in place of winning a case through the Word of God. .

To avoid this in my estimation it may be first-class keeping in mind Christ may perhaps be sitting with us now at the table.  1 Peter 3:15 So we put this stuff, food for thought., on the desk and examine it from different perspectives. Considering that none of us has a handle on all truth,.we just want to "make sure of all things" by putting them to the test.  1 Thess. 5:21

I'll have to get to your posting later on.

Good Bless

Larry