PRETERISM THE NEW FRONTIER

[Larry H]

10 hours ago, Uriah said:

Man, you really wanted to go there?------oi-kü-me'-nā  

 

1. the inhabited earth

   1. the portion of the earth inhabited by the Greeks, in distinction from the lands of the barbarians

   2. the Roman empire, all the subjects of the empire

   3. the whole inhabited earth, the world

   4. the inhabitants of the earth, men

2. the universe, the world

Good thing the disciples were packing their  Greek concordances.

How about Rev 12:9- And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: ^G3625 he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

At least the rest of the planet never got deceived by Satan, eh?  But seriously, the same word is used elsewhere  as you can see with the context dictating the usage.

Of all people, you should understand the audience relevance thing here. 

So I ask again, WHEN did Jesus return?

Hi Uriah Was it something I said ?

Your quotes

"Man, you really wanted to go there?------oi-kü-me'-nā"  

"Good thing the disciples were packing their  Greek concordances."

"Of all people, you should understand the audience relevance thing here" 

Audience relevance

Connect the dots and see if it comes up with as over a two thousand year fulfillment. Or a verse with double fulfillment's in the New Testament.

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be PREACHED IN THE WHOLE WORLD as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come NIV

Matthew 24:34 I tell you the truth, THIS GENERATION will certainly not pass away UNTIL ALL THESE THINGS HAVE HAPPENED. 

Colossians 1:6  "ALL OVER THE WORLD this gospel is bearing fruit" .... Present tense.

"So I ask again, WHEN did Jesus return"

Steak on the grill, in the next post my brother

[Uriah]

Hello Larry,

No, its what you won't say. Like when Jesus returned. Surely something as huge as this would be answered easily. So I am quite leery of yet another merry-go-round ride of preterist dogma, copy/pastes and all. So getting to the heart of s better than verbal strategies that beg the main question.

Edited February 16, 2019 by Uriah
spelling

[Larry H]

4 hours ago, Uriah said:

Hello Larry,

No, its what you won't say. Like when Jesus returned. Surely something as huge as this would be answered easily. So I am quite leery of yet another merry-go-round ride of preterist dogma, copy/pastes and all. So getting to the heart of s better than verbal strategies that beg the main question.

 

Hi Uriah

I will have to back track on the nature of the coming of Christ. He came in glory manifested by THE DESTRUCTION of JERUSALEM AND ITS TEMPLE IN AD 70. He came in the generation, first generation, He said he would.. I believe this is what Christ and the disciples had in mind in Matthew 24:1-3 where I think the second coming/Parousia originated for believers today.

I hope that is satisfactory to your question Uriah. I had no intention to take you for a ride. Those things, scriptures I cut and pasted, and perhaps articles from the Preterits camp would  give the read besides yourself what preterism is all about. Those who never took the time, or cared to find out of this theology.

So where in the bible do the Apostles or Christ specifically indicated an over 2000 year return to earth to set up His corporeal Kingdom in the way it is presented in the Christian community.

OK Your up

Kind Regards

Larry

[Uriah]

Thanks Larry,

There is nos specific verse saying it would take thousands of years. Jesus said He didn't know when it would be. but he DID say we should watch. He also said (NASB) Acts 1:8- but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.”

For centuries this did not happen. The verse I earlier in James also indicates the long wait as seasons passed. Peter's day/1,000 yrs. is also a good indicator. As is the story of the man going away to receive a kingdom. He warned that servants would misbehave because he was taking long. The virgins fell asleep from waiting so long, and the bridegroom came at the darkest time...etc.

Beyond these things Rev.1 tells us that every eye would see him. Ch. 6 shows people of the world hiding in caves and dens terrified of seeing His face after the sky rolls away. The cities of the earth fall down in a terrific global quake. The dead are judged at the 7th trumpet. Nobody ever reported experiencing the 6th 5th 4th trumpets and so on. No mark forced upon peoples' hands reported either. It just goes on and on. We would be relieved if they WERE past events but they cannot be found. 

Ths why in Luke 21 He spoke of things that would happen in 66-70 A.D. ...AND things that would happen "on the face of the whole Earth".

[Larry H]

8 hours ago, Uriah said:

Thanks Larry,

There is nos specific verse saying it would take thousands of years. Jesus said He didn't know when it would be. but he DID say we should watch. He also said (NASB) Acts 1:8- but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.”

For centuries this did not happen. The verse I earlier in James also indicates the long wait as seasons passed. Peter's day/1,000 yrs. is also a good indicator. As is the story of the man going away to receive a kingdom. He warned that servants would misbehave because he was taking long. The virgins fell asleep from waiting so long, and the bridegroom came at the darkest time...etc.

Beyond these things Rev.1 tells us that every eye would see him. Ch. 6 shows people of the world hiding in caves and dens terrified of seeing His face after the sky rolls away. The cities of the earth fall down in a terrific global quake. The dead are judged at the 7th trumpet. Nobody ever reported experiencing the 6th 5th 4th trumpets and so on. No mark forced upon peoples' hands reported either. It just goes on and on. We would be relieved if they WERE past events but they cannot be found. 

Ths why in Luke 21 He spoke of things that would happen in 66-70 A.D. ...AND things that would happen "on the face of the whole Earth".

Hi Uriah

I agree Well said ....."He also said (NASB) Acts 1:8- but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.”

Sometime I think we do not bestow sufficient recognition to our first century brothers and sister who passed through a great tribulation and death to provide us with the Good News of the Gospel, penned by the Holy Spirit. Reaching people throughout the world as you mentioned.

 

I'll give the full Preterist view on "no one knows the day or hour" since it begs the question of what Jesus was referring to in Matthew 24:36. And the paradigm, the end of the world, which I believe the KJV deposited in the psyche of Christians since the middle ages.

Matthew 24:3  Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? KJV

Matthew 24:3 The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age (Mark 13:3-13; Luke 21:17-19) Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" NKJV

There is no question it is understood in verses 1 and 2 of Matt. 24 that Jesus is speaking of the destruction of the Jewish Temple in AD 70. Why would the disciple all of a sudden inquire about the "end of the world," as stated in the KJV. Which was later corrected in the NKJV, and changed the idiom "world" with "age", as all  other translation did?

The "age" spoken of I believe was the consummation of Old Covenant dispensation, the Mosaic economy which was realized by the temple's destruction followed by "the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away"  Daniel 12:11 

[Uriah]

Hi Larry

Yes, it is the end of the AGE. It is followed by the "world to come". The Kingdom of God on Earth when Jesus comes again.

 

[Larry H]

Greetings .... I thought I switch gears to an alternative to preterism, tribulationalizm, I know Just another izm on the end times..

 In my brief study I found three position, Pre, Mid, and Post tribulationists.  All incorporating the timing of the Rapture, being caught up literally to meet the Lord in the air.. Founded on what Paul said to the Thessalonians, and the Millennium mentioned by John in the book of Revelation. Not forgetting verses taken out from the Olivet Discourse.

May I might ask which arrangement is settled on, and why in view of the fact  it necessitate a expectation of a future second coming. I am certain there is a good deal I can gain knowledge of  here concerning the Rapture theology in this open forum.

I posted it here since there are two schools of thought in preterism concerning the verses in Thessalonians, the Physical Ruptured, caught up, which came to pass in the first century, or a spiritual gathering of the Saints. Not too sure about the elements of the spiritual gathering yet.

[Uriah]

Hi Larry,

I am solidly on the post trib side. The pre trib version requires multiple "second" comings. Mid trib has all the same problems, just pushed back a few years..

As far as the preterist "spiritual" rapture is concerned, it also fails.IMO. I have asked preterists to produce 1 bible prophecy that was fulfilled "spiritually" (non literal). There are spiritual meanings, but literal fulfillments, the very definition of prophecy. 

[Larry H]

Good question Uriah  I'll give it a try ?

The prediction of a Spiritual  Resurrection.

Prediction

John 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

Fulfilled in the eyes of God

Ephesians 2:1  As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,

Because

The things God predicts is certain, and one  doesn't have to see it to believe it.  

Hebrews 11:1  Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

Rapture 

I am not signifying perhaps there is no corporeal pre trib Rapture in our future, but a case can be made for what Paul intended to bring out in his letter to the Thessalonians to encourage his brothers concerning those who have died.

The idea of Pre trib is by the process of elimination of the other Rapture views. Interesting, can you post some particulars on the constructive side, like the second advent, and the millennium. How do these series of verses fit together to draw the conclusion of the Pre Trib Rapture view.  For example 1 Cor.15:51 Seems to fit in to the scenario. 

[Last Daze]

16 hours ago, Uriah said:

I am solidly on the post trib side. The pre trib version requires multiple "second" comings. Mid trib has all the same problems, just pushed back a few years..

Agreed.  Whenever all the body of evidence is considered, post-trib is the least problematic.

The last days, however, is about being ready and persevering in the faith.  That comes about from a lifestyle of obedience to the teachings of Jesus.  So, the primary question is really not about the timing of the rapture, but whether we are ready.  That question isn't answered by our eschatology, but rather how we live our lives.

Edited February 18, 2019 by Last Daze