Why Pretrib Logic Fails

[iamlamad]

16 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

You are making the assumption that Revelation is liner and chronological in order.  There are many parenthetical pauses in Revelation the add detail.  And that the saints are prevailed over?  Of course!  Daniel said that also.  But that does  not mean they are in the same category as saints prior to the tribulation period starting.  Just like the saints from Shavuot (Pentecost) onward to the present are not the same saints as in the Tanakh.  Sure, all are redeemed the same manner, thru Yeshua, but that no way implies that they are in the same group.  

If these saints being overcome were intended by Yeshua to mean the church as we know it now, then why isn't the church ever mentioned after Chapter 3 on till the closing comments in Chapter 22?   Chapter 4 starts out stating....

Revelation 4:1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven.

What things?  The churches!

And notice the last part of the that verse... "a door standing open".  That is allusion to Isaiah 26....

Isaiah 26:2  Open the gates, That the righteous nation which keeps the truth may enter in.

And what is the context of that passage in Isaiah about?....

Isaiah 26:9 With my soul I have desired You in the night,
Yes, by my spirit within me I will seek You early;
For when Your judgments are in the earth,
The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

And here is that tie to Revelation 12 in the same chapter of Isaiah....

Isaiah 26:17 As a woman with child
Is in pain and cries out in her pangs,
When she draws near the time of her delivery,
So have we been in Your sight, O Lord.

And what is all this leading to?   The resurrection and removal of the righteous!!! 

Isaiah 26:19-21  Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,   
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

And compare that passage with what Yeshua stated.......

John 14:1-4  “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”

You are making the assumption that Revelation is liner and chronological in order.  It is - but agreed: there are parentheses. However, they do not take away from John's chronology. Please tell me you do not attempt to rearrange John's God given order!

that no way implies that they are in the same group.  Old Testament saints are NOT in the same group as the church. I don't think I even hinted they were. Their resurrection day is the last day of the 70th week.

Revelation 4:1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven.  What things?  The churches!  NO, NO, NO! John said "after these things" as a transitional phrase. He used it or a similar one I think 6 times in Revelation.  We could say it was after what happened to John in chapter 1, and after what he was told to write to the churches. But the TIME (95 AD) is still the very same time at the start of chapter 4 as it was while he was learning what to write to the churches. In fact, what he was told to write to the churches may well have been in a vision. 

"a door standing open".  That is allusion to Isaiah 26....Isaiah 26:2  Open the gates  That is a HUGE stretch. The door was sort of an invitation to JOHN and John ONLY.  Why force a verse to say what it really doesn't say? It DOES say it was JOHN called up..around 95 AD. To even hint this is the rapture is terrible exegesis: it is wild imagination. Many people KNEW it, so they came up with prewrath or posttrib - two other theories that are wrong.  Pretrib is TRUTH, but the rapture is not here! For timing on the rapture, we must go to Paul who received the revelation of the rapture. In 1 thes. 5, Paul tells us HIS gathering will come just before wrath: while those in Christ are raptured, those in darkness are left behind - to suffer "sudden destruction."  Paul goes on to show us this sudden destruction is the start of God's wrath on earth. It is not difficult to locate the rapture in Revelation.  Just find where John tells us God's wrath begins. Old Coot, you disappoint me!  I recommend you camp out on 1 Thes. 5 for a few weeks!

[iamlamad]

50 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

Ok, let's look at the text and compare with scripture.

In Revelation 4, John describes the scene.  One particular aspect is stated.....

Revelation 4:9-11  Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying:
11 “You are worthy, O Lord,
To receive glory and honor and power;
For You created all things,
And by Your will they exist and were created.

Now we compare with other scripture.....

John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 

Colossians 1:15-18  He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

Without debate, the personage pictured in Revelation 4 is the same Yeshua that is described earlier in the Book of John, and by Paul in his letter to the Colossians.  It is sound exegesis to conclude that Yeshua, the Lamb, is the one who is on the throne in Revelation 4.  To suggest that Yeshua is not present and only in Chapter 5 shows up is very poor hermeneutics.  

We, in our finite state, are trying impose that finality on a Triune God of vast dimensionality. It is true, that in Chapter 5, we see the Lamb take the scroll from the Father, but that in no way suggests that the Lamb was not on the throne in Chapter 4.  And regardless of how we may perceive what John is describing, he gave us enough to show that the one Triune God is on the throne.  Including the Lamb, Yeshua.  Keep in mind, Yeshua is seated at the right hand of the Father....

Ephesians 1:20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,

Hebrews 8:1-2 Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.

And in dozens of places in the Tanakh, it is the right hand of Yahweh that is redemption and thru which His judgement will be revealed.

The idea that the second person of that Triune God is the one who initiates the calamities that come upon the earth is bore out in Psalms 2 as in other passages...

Psalms 2:10-12 Now therefore, be wise, O kings;
Be instructed, you judges of the earth.
11 Serve the Lord with fear,
And rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest He be angry,
And you perish in the way,
When His wrath is kindled but a little.
Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.

And when does this occur?.....

Psalms 27:5 For in the time of trouble
He shall hide me in His pavilion;
In the secret place of His tabernacle
He shall hide me;
He shall set me high upon a rock.

Jeremiah 30:6-7  Ask now, and see,
Whether a man is ever in labor with child?
So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins
Like a woman in labor,    (See Revelation 12)
And all faces turned pale?
7 Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob's trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.

Sorry, but you are going off the deep end now. Go back to the beginning:

1 In the beginning God [the Godhead] created the heaven and the earth.

² And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God [the third person of the trinity] moved upon the face of the waters.

³ And God [the WORD: the second person of the trinity] said, Let there be light: and there was light.

⁴ And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

Without a doubt, the Holy Spirit KNEW that Father God [the first person of the trinity] WANTED light, but He had to wait. For what? For THE WORD.  We cannot say that Jesus [the second person of the trinity] did the creation alone! It was the GODHEAD that created the universe.

Matthew 26:64  Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mark 14:62  And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

 

Mark 16:19  So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

 

Luke 20:42  And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The Lordsaid unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

 

Luke 22:69  Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.

 

Acts 2:33  Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

 

Acts 2:34  For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

 

Acts 7:55  But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

 

Acts 7:56  And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

 

Romans 8:34  Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the righthand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

 

Ephesians 1:20  Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

 

Colossians 3:1  If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

 

Hebrews 1:3  Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

 

Hebrews 1:13  But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

 

Hebrews 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the righthand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

 

Hebrews 10:12  But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

 

Hebrews 12:2  Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

 

1 Peter 3:22  Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him

 

Where have you been? It is ALWAYS God the father, the first person of the Triune Godhead, that sits on the throne. The SON, the Redeemer, sits to His right, or stands, at times, as Stephen saw Him.

 

Here is BOTH the Father and the Son:

 

Revelation 5:7  And he [the Son, the Redeemer, the Lamb of God] came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne [Father God].

 

How then can you even think that it was Jesus on the throne in Rev. 4?

 

It is sound exegesis to conclude that Yeshua, the Lamb, is the one who is on the throne in Revelation 4.  Can you still say this after reading the above?

 

 To suggest that Yeshua is not present and only in Chapter 5 shows up is very poor hermeneutics.  After all these verses that the Lamb of God ascended and went to sit and the right hand of God, you think it is poor hermeneutics? It is what the scriptures are SHOWING us - and it is what Jesus Himself said to me. 

 

Please answer these questions - to the best of your ability:

DID Jesus leave heaven to be born as a human baby on earth? 

DID He grow up and end up being crucified?

Did He then get buried in a tomb, and rise on the 3rd day? 

And finally, Did He then ascend?

When He ascended, DID He send the Holy Spirit down?

 

I will await your answers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[OldCoot]

8 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

that no way implies that they are in the same group.  Old Testament saints are NOT in the same group as the church. I don't think I even hinted they were. Their resurrection day is the last day of the 70th week.

Could be. But maybe not.

Matthew 27:52-53  and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

While the text does not elaborate, we do have the writings of the early church, many of these writers either knew the Apostles themselves or were close to their disciples.  And many of these early writers suggest that these resurrected saints in Matthew were taken by Yeshua to the Father.  And that would make sense in light of Leviticus 23 regarding the harvest.

On the morning of His resurrection, He told Mary not to handle Him as He had not yet ascended to the Father.  In Leviticus 23, the high priest offers the first fruits of the harvest to Yahweh.  To do that, the high priest must remain ceremonially pure.  He was not to be touched or handled by anyone until after the offering of the first fruits.   

If what the early church writers claim in true, then Yeshua (our High Priest) took these resurrected OT saints to the Father as the offering of the first fruits.  We can speculate many other possibilities regarding these resurrected saints, but none of us were in close association with the Apostles who would have known for sure.  But many of the early church writers did know the apostles, so we must give some credibility to their writing on this issue.

[DonkeySpeaksAgain]

On 2/24/2019 at 11:15 AM, iamlamad said:

What search? This is simply speaking to the proof man is not worthy and Jesus is. Rev 1 contradicts this idea of yours. "I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore," Already resurrected and ascended in the beginning of Rev.

Incorrect. This is 95 AD when John received this of Jesus. Pentecost occurred 60+ years prior to this.

It's really sad when stuff like this happens. Jesus was worthy from the foundation of the world. To say he was only worthy after a certain point in time denies the deity of Jesus; refusing to understand Jesus created all things and He is, and was, and always will be, God Almighty.

Sixty years before the Rev was given? Contradicting your own arguments again? How could he be there in 33 AD and then not there in 95 AD? 

If a color were enough to come to a logical conclusion then sure, but it's not. What you are saying is, "White, therefore the Gospel."  It's tantamount to saying, "Belief, therefore truth." 

Of course you miss the idea of a person on the horse. An individual rides the white horse, it an individual that is armed, a conqueror, not the gospel. And it's not white that is the sole bit of evidence, it's a white horse, the most emphatic symbol of the conqueror, used by the leader of conquering armies for...well...ever. Jesus is seated on a white horse in Rev 19. You might as well say Jesus is the rider of the white horse in Rev 6, it would make as much sense.

This quote is from Diaste, not Iamlamad..

As you know, the visions shown to John concern what HAS happened, what IS happening, and what MUST SHORTLY (Rev. 1:1) begin to happen. 

Look closely at Rev 1:8 and see that the order is 1) what is, 2) what has been, and 3) what is coming. This matches the sequence of the letters (what is), chapter 4 and 5 (what was), and chapter 6 (what has already begun).

Now, Rev 1:6 says we ARE already made kings and priests, AND that Jesus has been given "glory and dominion" over creation. These accolades are added to in number at the different key events on the prophecy timeline. An in-depth study of these specific words will reveal that they represent increasing numbers of people. A king's glory is seen to be a reflection of the number of subjects under him. Dominion is self-evident as power over all of creation. Received upon His arrival to the throne. The glory here can be representative of the 24 elders and the OT saints released from the prison of the underworld after the resurrection.

Notice the candlesticks are in heaven just the same as later on in chapter 6. They are NOT the believers, but rather representations or symbols of them. Even the letters proclaim that these candlesticks CAN BE REMOVED for disobedience. 

And again, verse 19 reiterates.. "write the things you have seen (visions given to him), the things which are (the 7 letters), and the things which shall be hereafter (from this point on). 

Chapter 4 comes right after the 7 letters (things which are) and so, now we should see what HAS BEEN. A throne is set in heaven and a rainbow (symbol of peace with God) is all around the throne. Wonder what that could be? Looks like confirmation of a covenant made by God a very long time ago. The only people/things present are 24 elders (with crowns of gold - conquered death), four beasts (first is like a LION), a sea of glass, and of course the throne. 

Chapter 5 says "no man" was found worthy to even look at the scroll with writing on both sides. But, look, Jesus has prevailed to open the seals. When did this happen? Upon His arrival in heaven IN THE FIRST CENTURY! This part two (the things which HAVE BEEN). Verses 9-10 reiterate was already told to us in Rev 1 (Jesus made it possible for ALL people to be redeemed unto God AND has already made those who believe in Him to be kings and priests upon the earth. 5:11 ONLY mentions angels, beasts, and elders as being present in heaven. The SAME as in Rev 1. Verse 12 tells us all the accolades (7 in total) Jesus WILL receive, but so far, only two have been given. Verse 13 adds Blessing and Honor. These "extra" accolades then can be attached to Pentecost and/or 70AD. The desolation of the temple has to be significant to these honors given to Jesus since He is the ONLY temple of God and the ONLY door to heaven.

Chapter 6 now begins God's prophecy for the Church Age. "Come and see" is NOT a rapture verse. Don't even try it. The parallel for this being the Holy Spirit is seen in Psalms 7...

O Lord my God, in thee do I put my trust: save me from all them that persecute me, and deliver me:

² Lest he tear my soul like a lion, rending it in pieces, while there is none to deliver.

³ O Lord my God, If I have done this; if there be iniquity in my hands;

⁴ If I have rewarded evil unto him that was at peace with me; (yea, I have delivered him that without cause is mine enemy:)

⁵ Let the enemy persecute my soul, and take it; yea, let him tread down my life upon the earth, and lay mine honour in the dust. Selah.

⁶ Arise, O Lord, in thine anger, lift up thyself because of the rage of mine enemies: and awake for me to the judgment that thou hast commanded.

⁷ So shall the congregation of the people compass thee about: for their sakes therefore return thou on high.

⁸ The Lord shall judge the people: judge me, O Lord, according to my righteousness, and according to mine integrity that is in me.

⁹ Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins.

¹⁰ My defence is of God, which saveth the upright in heart.

¹¹ God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.

¹² If he turn not, he will whet his sword; he hath bent his bow, and made it ready.

¹³ He hath also prepared for him the instruments of death; he ordaineth his arrows against the persecutors.

¹⁴ Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood.

¹⁵ He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made.

¹⁶ His mischief shall return upon his own head, and his violent dealing shall come down upon his own pate.

¹⁷ I will praise the Lord according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the Lord most high.

The Holy Spirit is released. The bow represents a system of judgment, the crown represents conquering death, the NT is inundated with verse after verse about conquering as our purpose in life. The 1st seal is introduced by the first beast (the face of a lion) which also is a representation of Jesus. White is important because it is NEVER used to describe anything but holiness and purity. 

Zech 9:10 also points to Jesus as the confirmer of the 70th week covenant..."And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth."

The rapture brings in more accolades...

7:12  Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen

12:10  And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Then more at the 2nd coming...

19:1  And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:  (salvation)

 

And all these resurrection events are depicted in prophecy along with an earthquake. 

 

[simplejeff]

Yet,  wherever two or three are gathered ....

who is there with them ?   (yes, any day, anywhere, as written)

[OldCoot]

26 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

"a door standing open".  That is allusion to Isaiah 26....Isaiah 26:2  Open the gates  That is a HUGE stretch. The door was sort of an invitation to JOHN and John ONLY. 

Not necessarily.  In early eschatology (and still today in many Hebrew circles) it was taught that the door or gate of Heaven being opened is a direct allusion to Yom Teruah (feast of trumpets).  The righteous are sealed and hidden from the "days of awe" which is the 7 days prior to Yom Kippur (day of atonement) when the door or gate of heaven is closed and the unrighteous destiny is sealed.   Yom  Teruah falls on the 1st of Tishri and is a two day event.  Being it on the first of a month and a two day period, no man can know the day or the hour (sound familiar?) until the confirmation of the new moon is established and confirmed, which starts the first of the month.   Yom Kippur falls on the 10th of Tishri. There are 7 days between those two events.   That can reasonably be equated to the 70th week of Daniel.

And Joel supports the idea of the trumpet being associated with this period.... first an allusion to Yom Teruah.....

Joel 2:1  Blow the trumpet in Zion, And sound an alarm in My holy mountain!
Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble;
For the day of the Lord is coming,
For it is at hand:

Then an allusion to Yom Kippur.....

Joel 2:15-17  Blow the trumpet in Zion,
Consecrate a fast,
Call a sacred assembly;
16 Gather the people,
Sanctify the congregation,
Assemble the elders,
Gather the children and nursing babes;
Let the bridegroom go out from his chamber,
And the bride from her dressing room.
17 Let the priests, who minister to the Lord,
Weep between the porch and the altar;
Let them say, “Spare Your people, O Lord,
And do not give Your heritage to reproach,
That the nations should rule over them.
Why should they say among the peoples,
‘Where is their God?’ ”

[OldCoot]

On 2/24/2019 at 9:31 PM, iamlamad said:

Dispensationalism is such a lame doctrine. Not one shred of proof exists for this claim. I guess if one starts believing in make believe anything is possible.

You do know, don't you, that dispensation is mentioned several times in scripture?  So then, how is there no shred of proof?  All a dispensation means is a different revealing of the knowledge of God in history.  For example, Yahweh revealed more of himself in the Torah when it was given than those before the Torah knew. And a distinct group of people were identified with Him.  Whereas before, Yahweh dealt with a few individuals.  And when Yeshua came, even more of Yahweh was revealed than what was understood previously.  And with that, the gentiles were now included without condition where before, a gentile had to assimilate into Jewish culture and religion and place themselves under the Torah to be accepted.  Simple eh?   But the word is definitely used in like manner here....

1 Corinthians 9:17  For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Ephesians 3:2-3 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

Colossians 1:25  Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

Just seems irrational for some to get all tied up in knots over the idea of dispensation.  Like any idea or concept, it can be abused I suppose, but that doesn't negate the concept.  There are dispensations  of Yahweh through history and will be yet future.  Whereas this time all can be reconciled with Yahweh thru Yeshua.  Yet future, the judgement of Yahweh will be revealed on the world.  Some will embrace Yeshua at that time but still endure that judgement period.  Many will not embrace Yeshua even though his anger being revealed will make Him known throughout the earth to the greatest extent than previous.

Edited February 26, 2019 by OldCoot
Spelling

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, OldCoot said:

You do know, don't you, that dispensation is mentioned several times in scripture?  So then, how is there no shred of proof?  All a dispensation means is a different revealing of the knowledge of God in history.  For example, Yahweh revealed more of himself in the Torah when it was given than those before the Torah knew. And a distinct group of people were identified with Him.  Whereas before, Yahweh dealt with a few individuals.  And when Yeshua came, even more of Yahweh was revealed than what was understood previously.  And with that, the gentiles were now included without condition where before, a gentile had to assimilate into Jewish culture and religion and place themselves under the Torah to be accepted.  Simple eh?   But the word is definitely used in like manner here....

1 Corinthians 9:17  For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Ephesians 3:2-3 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

Colossians 1:25  Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

Just seems irrational for some to get all tied up in knots over the idea of dispensation.  Like any idea or concept, it can be abused I suppose, but that doesn't negate the concept.  There are dispensations  of Yahweh through history and will be yet future.  Whereas this time all can be reconciled with Yahweh thru Yeshua.  Yet future, the judgement of Yahweh will be revealed on the world.  Some will embrace Yeshua at that time but still endure that judgement period.  Many will not embrace Yeshua even though his anger being revealed will make Him known throughout the earth to the greatest extent than previous.

Yes, very simple. All who are "tied in knots" should untie themselves! During the Old Covenant, it was IMPOSSIBLE to be born again. The price for sin had not yet been paid. But once Jesus died, paying the price of death for sin for mankind, then being born again was possible - and more - it became a requirement to see heaven.  This shows a different dispensation. 

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Not necessarily.  In early eschatology (and still today in many Hebrew circles) it was taught that the door or gate of Heaven being opened is a direct allusion to Yom Teruah (feast of trumpets).  The righteous are sealed and hidden from the "days of awe" which is the 7 days prior to Yom Kippur (day of atonement) when the door or gate of heaven is closed and the unrighteous destiny is sealed.   Yom  Teruah falls on the 1st of Tishri and is a two day event.  Being it on the first of a month and a two day period, no man can know the day or the hour (sound familiar?) until the confirmation of the new moon is established and confirmed, which starts the first of the month.   Yom Kippur falls on the 10th of Tishri. There are 7 days between those two events.   That can reasonably be equated to the 70th week of Daniel.

And Joel supports the idea of the trumpet being associated with this period.... first an allusion to Yom Teruah.....

Joel 2:1  Blow the trumpet in Zion, And sound an alarm in My holy mountain!
Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble;
For the day of the Lord is coming,
For it is at hand:

Then an allusion to Yom Kippur.....

Joel 2:15-17  Blow the trumpet in Zion,
Consecrate a fast,
Call a sacred assembly;
16 Gather the people,
Sanctify the congregation,
Assemble the elders,
Gather the children and nursing babes;
Let the bridegroom go out from his chamber,
And the bride from her dressing room.
17 Let the priests, who minister to the Lord,
Weep between the porch and the altar;
Let them say, “Spare Your people, O Lord,
And do not give Your heritage to reproach,
That the nations should rule over them.
Why should they say among the peoples,
‘Where is their God?’ ”

The truth is, a door was opened and JOHN was called up. There is not even a HINT of anything else - unless one reads imagination between the lines.  You imagine a rapture, but that is simply impossible if we follow John's chronology: At the 5th seal, people are still be added to the number of church age martyrs. The time of judgment is not going to come (Seal 6) until the final number of martyrs is complete. 

I agree, there is many hints that the rapture will come at the last trump of a feast of trumpets.  But there is NO proof that Rev. 4:1 is the timing. We are still in the seals. The first seal is the gospel sent out. The second, third, and fourth seals are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the gospel. The 5th seal - church age martyrs. The 6th seal - start of judgment and God's wrath. It is very simple if we just follow what is written. Always remember, the rapture will come a moment BEFORE the Day of the Lord, for the DAY starts God's wrath. In Revelation, that is at the 6th seal, not the first.

[OldCoot]

3 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

The truth is, a door was opened and JOHN was called up. There is not even a HINT of anything else - unless one reads imagination between the lines.  You imagine a rapture, but that is simply impossible if we follow John's chronology: At the 5th seal, people are still be added to the number of church age martyrs. The time of judgment is not going to come (Seal 6) until the final number of martyrs is complete. 

I agree, there is many hints that the rapture will come at the last trump of a feast of trumpets.  But there is NO proof that Rev. 4:1 is the timing. We are still in the seals. The first seal is the gospel sent out. The second, third, and fourth seals are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the gospel. The 5th seal - church age martyrs. The 6th seal - start of judgment and God's wrath. It is very simple if we just follow what is written. Always remember, the rapture will come a moment BEFORE the Day of the Lord, for the DAY starts God's wrath. In Revelation, that is at the 6th seal, not the first.

Well, assuming there is still a “church age” after Revelation 4:1 is as much imagining as you claim I am guilty of.  The church as a entity is never referred to again after chapter 3 except in the final salutations of the book.