Why Pretrib Logic Fails

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, Diaste said:

This denies the deity of Christ. Jesus wrote what was in that scroll. Jesus created the world, destroyed it in a flood, gave the Commandments, was the pillar of fire and the pillar of cloud, the wanderers in the desert lived and died under Jesus Christ. 

The point you miss is the example Jesus gave us of the faithful son. His life on earth did not make him worthy, nor did his resurrection, it was example and proof, as he is and was worthy from the beginning of time and forever, Jesus is God.

You are simply mistaken. What is happened here in these verses?

² And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

³ And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

⁴ And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

Notice, "no man was found worthy..." 

What is this telling us? First, it destroys your argument above. It tells us that there was a time when Jesus was not found worthy to open the seals. 

If these were the only clue, one could possibly say that the angels just missed Jesus in this search. However, this is NOT the only clue.

We have a throne room in chapter 4, where John DID NOT see Jesus at the right hand of the father.  

We have a throne room in chapter 4 where the Holy Spirit is there - when we would expect, in 95 AD that He should have been sent down. Actually, in chapter 5, Jesus suddenly shows up and the Holy Spirit IS sent down - but we know this happened in 32 AD or there about. 

Face the truth here: there was a time when Jesus was NOT found worthy. Do you know why?

 

[iamlamad]

15 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Iamlamad,

I kid you not. Kenneth Copeland said that. Not that I adhere to ANY of his teachings, they are heretical. The man is a false teacher. I was scrolling through the tv channels many years ago, and I saw his name. I figured I'd watch and see what this guy is teaching. Lo and behold......

Ok, let's address something else you said:

"Someone came up to John and told him to stop weeping, for someone had been found worthy. Then John turned and saw a Lamb, “having been slain.” That Lamb was simply not there the moment before! John got to see in vision form, the moment Jesus ascended, after telling Mary not to hold onto Him for He had not yet ascended. Once Mary left Him, He ascended and entered the throne room, and John got to see this very moment in time, in the vision! Then we read that He came with the Holy Spirit, who was immediately sent down to the earth."

The Holy Spirit could not have been sent down at that time. The Holy Spirit was not sent until Pentecost, many days later.

Care to explain.

There can be no explanation! I am mistaken in this point in writing "immediately." 

⁶ And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Keep in mind, John wrote this book in 95 AD, after he had seen all these things. John just wrote what happened on Pentecost, and added it to the Lamb suddenly appearing in the throne room. You are right, the Lamb suddenly appeared, with the Holy Spirit - but the Spirit was sent down days later. Of course in 95 AD the Holy Spirit was sent forth into all the earth.

The point is, the Holy Spirit is there in the vision of the throne room in chapter 4, which most people suppose is the throne room of 95 AD. The Holy Spirit should not have been there.  If John had seen in real life - not in a vision - the real throne room of 95 AD the Holy Spirit would not have been seen there. He would have already been sent down some 60 years or so previous.

Thanks for spotting that! I don't want to write errors.

[iamlamad]

17 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

What you are believing does not agree with scripture. 

*[[1Ti 6:16]] KJV* Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Jesus,  is currently the one who can dwell in the light of the glorious presence of God almighty.   Not only do we see Jesus claiming that title for himself [almighty]  but it says that the seven spirits are also before the throne in both chapter 1 & 4, before anyone was found worthy. 

*[[Rev 1:4]] KJV* John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

*[[Rev 4:5]] KJV* And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Chapter 3 conforms that Jesus is the one who has the spirits and the seven stars:

*[[Rev 2:1]] KJV* Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

*[[Rev 3:1]] KJV* And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

And when the worthiness of Jesus is found in chapter 5, the seven spirits have now been sent into all of the earth,  as opposed to previously being before the throne and in the hand of Jesus. 

*[[Rev 5:6]] KJV* And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

*[[Rev 5:7]] KJV* And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

All of these things add up to Jesus dwelling in the presence of the Father from the opening words of chapter 1.  This is totally contrary and contradictory to your view that the picture of Jesus in chapter 5 was before his resurrection.

Blessings

The PuP 

What you are believing does not agree with scripture.   That remains to be seen. It might well be what I believe does not agree with YOUR TAKE on scripture. Let me read your arguments.

I see the Holy spirit in chapter 1 and in chapter 4.  We are both agreed so far. 

It was around 95 AD when John was called up to heaven. In 95 AD the Holy Spirit had been sent down some 60 years previous. Right? In other words, one would NOT EXPECT Him to be in the throne room in 95 AD - Yet He is there. We should make some effort to ascertain why. I had to make an effort, because Jesus asked me personally why the Holy Spirit was there. I had no answer. Finally, after He sent me to chapter 12 to learn "history lesson" I understood John was seeing a vision of the past - a time BEFORE He was sent down.

⁴ John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

I looked to see if this was an Aorist tense verb. It is present tense. Another words, John was saying that in 95 AD the Holy Spirit (as the seven spirits) were there before His throne. I have no immediate answer for this. He is there but He is also sent down. Or He is sent down but He is also there. I will have to think about it.

And when the worthiness of Jesus is found in chapter 5, the seven spirits have now been sent into all of the earth,  as opposed to previously being before the throne and in the hand of Jesus.  Right....except in chapter 1 - in 95 AD - He is before the throne. I was doing very well until you pointed that verse out.  We know that when Jesus was baptized, He received the Holy Spirit at that time - without measure. It is without much doubt, when Jesus arose, the Holy Spirit was upon Him again. You have raised a very good point.

All of these things add up to Jesus dwelling in the presence of the Father from the opening words of chapter 1.  Not true! You have missed something: in chapters 1, 2, and 3, it seems Jesus is first person with John, in 95 AD. My belief is that as soon as He was called up to heaven, He was seeing a vision of the past. It is IN THE VISION that He is not there.  Of course He is there SHOWING John the vision.  But inside the vision, we must ascertain the time being shown.   I don't think your argument rises to the level of proving what you are believing of disproving what I am believing. 

Now, perhaps you can tell us why Jesus was not seen beside the Father in chapter 4, and why "no man was found worthy." 

Edited March 5, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

13 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

The 7 spirits are not the holy spirit.   He is never referred to in the NT by anything other than a single entity. 

Concerning the worthiness of Jesus and his whereabouts you are not grasping my points.   It is only your claim,  not the scriptures that says that Jesus was not found. 

*[[Rev 4:5]] KJV* And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

The 7 spirits and lamps are in the hand of Jesus, [here in chapter 4]  and this verse says that they are before the throne,  which means that he too is before the throne and that only Jesus, as a man,  abides currently in the Fathers  presence [1Tim6].  

The apropo question is not,  as I have already stated,  "who is worthy", but who is worthy to open the seals.   For Jesus to present himself as one that has proven himself worthy by him being slain for the sins of the world,  for him to present himself "worthy/ qualified"  to open the seals before the day that God has appointed to judge the world (by Jesus) is to subvert the authority of God the Father,  over that of God the Son.   The SON,  sits at the Father's right hand in a position of submission unto the will of the Father.   AND that day of judgment is exclusively determined by the will of the Father.   

The accolades of praise of the 4 beasts and the 24 elders are only for the one who sits on the throne..UNTIL the lamb presents himself as being worthy to open the seals.   All of heaven owes and presents its praise ONLY to God, who sits on the throne,  because of the exercise of the lambs submission unto the Father.   Any praises offered unto Jesus would be a subversion of the authority that IS BEING EXERCISED BY GOD,  that the day of judgment has not arrived.  It would be like celebrating victory on a basketball court,  before the game is ever played,  and then losing the game because the players didn't listen to the coach during the game.

I made this point before,  God will remain as the supreme authority [numero uno], even over Jesus,  until there are no more enemies of God at the end of the millennium.  Notice the before and after that the lamb steps forth as being worthy: 

AFTER

Verse list:    
Rev 5:11-14 KJV    And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto HIM THAT  SITTETH UPON the THRONE, AND  unto THE LAMB  for ever and ever. And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

BEFORE

Rev 4:9-11 KJV    And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, The four and twenty elders fall down before HIM THAT SAT ON  the THRONE, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

BEFORE:  ONLY the Father is praised. 

AFTER:  BOTH the Father and Son are praised. 

Blessings

The PuP 

I still don't think you are addressing what John tells us in ONE VERSE:

² And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

³ And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

⁴ And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

Notice, this is one moment in time: long enough for angels to search heaven, earth and under the earth for someone worthy to take the book and open the seals.  Note carefully that NO ONE was found. Note carefully that John wept much. 

I got hung up on John weeping much. I started bugging God about it. "God, why did we need to know that John wept, and why did we need to know he wept much? After weeks of me bugging Him, He answered:

"IT SHOWS TIMING."

I studied diligently and could not see timing. I continued studying, hours a day and kept right on bugging God because I could not find "timing."  Finally, after more weeks of study, and me bugging God, He spoke again and said, 
 

"IT ALSO SHOWS THE MOVEMENT OF TIME."

So I studied all the more intensely, trying to find timing and the movement of time. I could not.  That is when Jesus said He would ask me three questions, and until I could answer them correctly, I would never understand this part of the vision.

At one time later, Jesus said, "that first search John watched ended in failure. He wrote, "no man was found" and that is the very reason he was weeping much."

He asked me the three questions - questions I had no answer for - so I spent more weeks in intense study, trying to find timing, the movement of time, why Jesus was not immediately seen at the right hand of the Father, where Stephen saw Him, and why the Holy Spirit was there.  

You may say the seven spirits of God are not the Holy Spirit, but one of the questions Jesus asked me was why the Holy Spirit was there in chapter 4, when He should have been sent down 60 years previous. I can see no other words that could remotely be the Holy Spirit.  There are still things about this I don't understand. 

The apropo question is not,  as I have already stated,  "who is worthy", but who is worthy to open the seals.  Yes, of course that was the question from the powerful angel. I have just shortened it to "no man was found" when I should have continued with "worthy to take the book and open the seals." I though all would know that was the intended meaning. 

I don't think Jesus did "present Himself." We learn from John that ANGELS were searching for one worthy to open the seals. Then one said to John, "Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof."

So DID angels "find" Him in their search - or did he "present Himself?"  I think the former. We can only guess what they were looking for. Was "redeemer" written on the outside of the scroll? We don't know.  What we do know is that in that first search John watched, "no man was found worthy." I think the reason is simple: IN THE VISION Jesus had not yet risen from the dead.

"Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever."

Here we see the separation of God the Father, seated on the throne, and of the Son, who went to be at the Father's right hand. Some imagine that it was the SON seated on the throne. I disagree: all through the bible it is the Father seen on the throne.

It was very nice the way you showed one the worship was towards the Father in chapter 4, and towards both in chapter 5. Good job.

[iamlamad]

On 3/4/2019 at 11:22 PM, JoeCanada said:

Iamlamad,

I kid you not. Kenneth Copeland said that. Not that I adhere to ANY of his teachings, they are heretical. The man is a false teacher. I was scrolling through the tv channels many years ago, and I saw his name. I figured I'd watch and see what this guy is teaching. Lo and behold......

Ok, let's address something else you said:

"Someone came up to John and told him to stop weeping, for someone had been found worthy. Then John turned and saw a Lamb, “having been slain.” That Lamb was simply not there the moment before! John got to see in vision form, the moment Jesus ascended, after telling Mary not to hold onto Him for He had not yet ascended. Once Mary left Him, He ascended and entered the throne room, and John got to see this very moment in time, in the vision! Then we read that He came with the Holy Spirit, who was immediately sent down to the earth."

The Holy Spirit could not have been sent down at that time. The Holy Spirit was not sent until Pentecost, many days later.

Care to explain.

After sleeping on this, I have a different answer: Jesus said He would send the Holy Spirit down, as soon as He ascended, and that is what this verse hints at:

⁶ And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

He was indeed sent. But He was sent long before Pentecost. When Jesus breathed on them and said, "receive the Holy Spirit" He was there at that time.

John 16: 

⁷ Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

¹³ Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

These aspects of the Holy Spirit are what we get a salvation. On Pentecost, they were already born again, but then got the mighty baptism in the Holy Spirit: the Holy Spirit UPON [not within] as the anointing.  

It is possible then that the Holy Spirit WAS sent down as soon as Jesus ascended that first time. 

John 20:

¹⁹ Then the same day at evening, [the very day He spoke to Mary] being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

²⁰ And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.

²¹ Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

²² And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

This is why I say it is possible the Holy Spirit was already sent down at this time. This was the very first time in human history that the Holy Spirit could enter the human spirit to dwell. But as Jesus said in a parable - you don't put new wine into old bottles - the Holy Spirit had to create a NEW human spirit to enter. This was the very first time ever that humans were born again.

 

[Montana Marv]

Jesus said to wait for the Holy Spirit. He came 40 days after the Ascension. Read Acts

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Spock]

1 hour ago, Montana Marv said:

Jesus said to wait for the Holy Spirit. He came 40 days after the Ascension. Read Acts

In Christ

Montana Marv

He did say, “BREATHE on them and said RECEIVE THE HS.”

It seems to me maybe only these APOSTLES received the HS at that time.....no 9ne else until Pentecost.  

Also, don’t forget, Jesus had not risen yet so he wasn’t in Heaven at the throne room sending down the HS. Rather, he was on Earth. This seems to not support LA....maybe not. 

Edited March 6, 2019 by Spock

[JoeCanada]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

After sleeping on this, I have a different answer: Jesus said He would send the Holy Spirit down, as soon as He ascended, and that is what this verse hints at:

⁶ And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

He was indeed sent. But He was sent long before Pentecost. When Jesus breathed on them and said, "receive the Holy Spirit" He was there at that time.

John 16: 

⁷ Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

¹³ Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

These aspects of the Holy Spirit are what we get a salvation. On Pentecost, they were already born again, but then got the mighty baptism in the Holy Spirit: the Holy Spirit UPON [not within] as the anointing.  

It is possible then that the Holy Spirit WAS sent down as soon as Jesus ascended that first time. 

John 20:

¹⁹ Then the same day at evening, [the very day He spoke to Mary] being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

²⁰ And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.

²¹ Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

²² And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

This is why I say it is possible the Holy Spirit was already sent down at this time. This was the very first time in human history that the Holy Spirit could enter the human spirit to dwell. But as Jesus said in a parable - you don't put new wine into old bottles - the Holy Spirit had to create a NEW human spirit to enter. This was the very first time ever that humans were born again.

 

iamlamad,

"This was the very first time in human history that the Holy Spirit could enter the human spirit to dwell"

I must disagree.

David wrote in Psalm 51....

"Do not cast me away from your presence, And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me"

 

[Montana Marv]

One reason why Christ may not have been in the Throne Room was that He just finished the Bema Seat of Christ, giving out rewards.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

 It is good to see that you acknowledge that God the Father is the one who sits on the throne.   But this is not about me not addressing where Jesus is.   But you are not acknowledging that the spirits & stars/angels, being in the right hand of Jesus,  means that he is standing before the throne. 

In a different kind of way,  the 7 spirits are the Holy Spirit.   They are the essence of the one holy spirit that is sent to each of the 7 churches.   And you probably noticed that I connected stars WITH angels. 

*[[Rev 1:20]] KJV* The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

*[[Rev 3:1]] KJV* And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

*[[Rev 4:5]] KJV* And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Did you notice that the 7 candlesticks are the 7 churches?   Did you notice what is written in all of Rev 2 & 3? 7 letters written to  each angel of each church,  witnessed by each of the 7 spirits.  They are inextricably linked to each other and to Jesus.   They are His angels,  His churches,  and His spirits. 

 *[[Mat 25:31]] KJV* When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

*[[2Th 1:7]] KJV* And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

And now this verse: 

*[[Rev 8:2]] KJV* And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

No one can deny that there are an infinite number of angels.  But these are His angels that "stood before the throne ".   Going back to the parable of the tares we see:

*[[Mat 13:41]] KJV* The Son of man shall send forth HIS ANGELS, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

Hopefully,  by now you can see that these are His angels, churches and spirits,  and they are there together before the throne.   And that they are all about his kingdom,  and that Jesus is not absent when no one was found worthy,  when they are seen before thee throne.   It is all about the establishment of his kingdom,  given to him by the Father. 

*[[Luk 22:29]] KJV* And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;

*[[Rev 11:15]] KJV* And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Blessings

The PuP 

PuP, please answer one simple question: WHERE was the second person of the Godhead in the year  15 AD?