Gentiles who tried to enter the 2nd temple would be put to death

[R. Hartono]

On 2/14/2022 at 2:31 AM, appy said:

@R. Hartono

 My point in highlighting this is to show that a pastor of a church, is working and does  deserve a wage from his congregation.

 A tithe then is suggested starting point.

Every body needs money as well as pastors but to copy paste tithe as starting point is not Biblical principle of cheerful giver.

2 Cor 9:6-7 Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work.

[Omegaman 3.0]

Just a simple question:

Is anyone going to post something here that has not already been said, and which adds to the topic? Or is it time to give it a rest? I see a lot of repetition, and to be honest, I am not sure I have seen anything here, that I was not aware of before this thread started, though some perhaps have. However, there is not anything here that was not here in the first page, just saying!

[R. Hartono]

46 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Just a simple question:

Is anyone going to post something here that has not already been said, and which adds to the topic? Or is it time to give it a rest? I see a lot of repetition, and to be honest, I am not sure I have seen anything here, that I was not aware of before this thread started, though some perhaps have. However, there is not anything here that was not here in the first page, just saying!

We do not always have the opportunity of sharing in Christian Forums, the time will come when Christianity shall be banned with all discussions in the Christian Forums, without you need to close any topics.

Edited February 15, 2022 by R. Hartono

[Anne2]

Tithing: the priests had no inheritance or portion with the twelve tribes. Thr Lord was their part...their inheritance

Nu 18:20  And the LORD spake unto Aaron, Thou shalt have no inheritance in their land, neither shalt thou have any part among them: I am thy part and thine inheritance among the children of Israel.

Nu 18:23  But the Levites shall do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they shall bear their iniquity: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations, that among the children of Israel they have no inheritance.

The tithe was was their inheritance

Nu 18:24  But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.
Nu 26:62  And those that were numbered of them were twenty and three thousand, all males from a month old and upward: for they were not numbered among the children of Israel, because there was no inheritance given them among the children of Israel.

Their inheritance is the Lord

De 18:2  Therefore shall they have no inheritance among their brethren: the LORD is their inheritance, as he hath said unto them.

 

Gentiles were not the only ones that could not go into the temple itself. A Jew could not go there either. They were strangers (zuwr, alienated, estranged from it). Solomons temple even divided the courts. The court for the priests and the court for the common people.

1Co 9:13  Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? {live: or, feed }
1Co 9:14  Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

Levites joined to aaron and sons Allowed in.

Nu 18:4  And they shall be joined unto thee, and keep the charge of the tabernacle of the congregation, for all the service of the tabernacle: and a stranger <02114> shall not come nigh unto you.
Nu 18:7  Therefore thou and thy sons with thee shall keep your priest’s office for every thing of the altar, and within the vail; and ye shall serve: I have given your priest’s office unto you as a service of gift: and the stranger <02114> that cometh nigh shall be put to death.
 

Even the priests daughter if she married any other than a Levite, or son of Aaron could no longer eat of the holy things.  

Le 22:10  There shall no stranger <02114> eat of the holy thing: a sojourner of the priest, or an hired servant, shall not eat of the holy thing.

Le 22:12  If the priest’s daughter also be married unto a stranger <0376> <02114>, she may not eat of an offering of the holy things. {a stranger: Heb. a man a stranger }

Le 22:13  But if the priest’s daughter be a widow, or divorced, and have no child, and is returned unto her father’s house, as in her youth, she shall eat of her father’s meat: but there shall no stranger <02114> eat thereof.

Any thoughts on the above?

Was their a further separation  to symbolize the status of the uncircumcised from the circumcision? Their priestlike status in relation to the Gentiles. Even the Apostle  Peter was surprised to be called to the Gentile Cornelius. Then the entire Church leadership was shocked Peter had eaten with an uncircumcised man. 

Edited February 15, 2022 by Anne2

[appy]

On 2/13/2022 at 1:33 PM, R. Hartono said:

The 72 disciples did not ask mandatory 10% of people's money like those present church pastors are doing.

This nation is the largest followers of Arab religion and they know the church demand 10% but thats not true, God of the Bible never asked for money and those pastors will face God to answer.

Tithe is one of the 613 Mitzvot of Torah, you took all or leave all n its commanded to the 12 tribes of Hebrew, not to church.

 

 

I get your point ome. The discussion certainly seems that important to Hartono.

What we need to look at Hartono is that even in Moses' time, the point of all giving whether the giving was to the temple for the priests and Levites use, or being dispersed to anyone in need. Is that all benefited from it. Not just a few. It benefited those who gave. It benefited those who received. Those who did give, were giving back to God. And most importantly it was instituted to teach us to put God first in our lives.

The giving back to God and putting God first in our lives through giving is certainly taught in the NT. The concept and principle is there. The church did NOT as you put it.... copy and paste the tithe. When we read the book of Acts we see that at the very beginning, that the church began with Jewish Christians, not gentiles, but Jews. For the gospel message was first preached to the Jews, then to the gentiles. The reason for giving a voluntary “ tithe” to the church was taught by the Apostles who were themselves Jewish. This was taught to both Jew and gentile by the Apostles themselves. So nothing was copy and pasted by the church. They didn't copy or steal anything !!

In Acts 4 we see that money was used, because it was more functional, useful and practical than trying to carry crops and drag livestock to destinations of those in need. God is not unreasonable. If a person needed financial help, the need was met.  Tithing even back when Deuteronomy was penned, was supposed to be a pleasant and joyful event. Not something people dreaded.

Deuteronomy 14:24-27
24  But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the Lord your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the Lord will choose to put his Name is so far away), 25 then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the Lord your God will choose. 26 Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the Lord your God and rejoice. 27 And do not neglect the Levites living in your towns, for they have no allotment or inheritance of their own.

We give to the local church first because that is the mechanism of God’s movement in the world, with the local church typically also supporting missionaries and ministries that help those in need; in and through the local church, one is able to give in a variety of ways.

Local churches have financial needs, and when a large number of congregants do not help financially, the pastor has no choice but to say something just as Malachi had to say something.

In summary, a local pastor or t.v evangelist, quoting Malachi is nothing. I don't know of any church other than the mormon church that goes out of their way to enforce mandatory tithing. I've heard that if one forgets to tithe in the mormon church, come next meeting, you better have last week's tithe along with this week's tithe with you, and if you miss this week as well, they will send someone to your home to remind you that you missed two weeks in a row. They keep records of every member's income and tithing habits.

If the above is not your situation, and your arm is not being twisted till you give, then why are you whining about pastor's who are merely asking congregants to give? A lot of pastor's will agree with you, that it isn't good for a pastor or church, to use pressure tactics. In spite of a pastor using pressure tactics, the choice to give or not is between you and God. We can't make that any clearer.

[Omegaman 3.0]

On 2/14/2022 at 11:55 PM, R. Hartono said:

We do not always have the opportunity of sharing in Christian Forums, the time will come when Christianity shall be banned with all discussions in the Christian Forums, without you need to close any topics.

That time may come, that time is not now, but I do not see what that has to do with anything! If/when that time comes, this forum will be shut down, regardless of this thread. Perhaps start or join a thread which helps people come to Christ, helps people help people to come to Christ, helps people to discover various ways to help others who need help, just some thoughts.

My comment was geared to the observation that the thread is going around in circles, when that happens edification slow, monotony takes over, and relevance and edification ceases.

The title: "Gentiles who tried to enter the 2nd temple would be put to death" is an interesting statement about a time long past, and before the church began. How about at least focusing on how this is relevant to us now, as the body of Christ? What should we learn from this? 

If not, there are plenty of good, threads for people to discuss things here, don't you agree?

[Omegaman 3.0]

On 2/15/2022 at 6:36 AM, appy said:

I get your point ome. The discussion certainly seems that important to Hartono.

 

 I would use the term obsessive, not important, but that is just me. However, it it HIS obsession, and if that is also his conviction, then yes, my all means he should pursue criticizing other people serving God according to THEIR conviction, like it says:

Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

Oh wait, that does not fit well, never mind!

 

[R. Hartono]

6 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

 I would use the term obsessive, not important, but that is just me. However, it it HIS obsession, and if that is also his conviction, then yes, my all means he should pursue criticizing other people serving God according to THEIR conviction, like it says:

Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

Oh wait, that does not fit well, never mind!

 

 

On 2/15/2022 at 9:36 PM, appy said:

I get your point ome. The discussion certainly seems that important to Hartono.

What we need to look at Hartono is that even in Moses' time, the point of all giving whether the giving was to the temple for the priests and Levites use, or being dispersed to anyone in need. Is that all benefited from it. Not just a few. It benefited those who gave. It benefited those who received. Those who did give, were giving back to God. And most importantly it was instituted to teach us to put God first in our lives.

The giving back to God and putting God first in our lives through giving is certainly taught in the NT. The concept and principle is there. The church did NOT as you put it.... copy and paste the tithe. When we read the book of Acts we see that at the very beginning, that the church began with Jewish Christians, not gentiles, but Jews. For the gospel message was first preached to the Jews, then to the gentiles. The reason for giving a voluntary “ tithe” to the church was taught by the Apostles who were themselves Jewish. This was taught to both Jew and gentile by the Apostles themselves. So nothing was copy and pasted by the church. They didn't copy or steal anything !!

In Acts 4 we see that money was used, because it was more functional, useful and practical than trying to carry crops and drag livestock to destinations of those in need. God is not unreasonable. If a person needed financial help, the need was met.  Tithing even back when Deuteronomy was penned, was supposed to be a pleasant and joyful event. Not something people dreaded.

Deuteronomy 14:24-27
24  But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the Lord your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the Lord will choose to put his Name is so far away), 25 then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the Lord your God will choose. 26 Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the Lord your God and rejoice. 27 And do not neglect the Levites living in your towns, for they have no allotment or inheritance of their own.

We give to the local church first because that is the mechanism of God’s movement in the world, with the local church typically also supporting missionaries and ministries that help those in need; in and through the local church, one is able to give in a variety of ways.

Local churches have financial needs, and when a large number of congregants do not help financially, the pastor has no choice but to say something just as Malachi had to say something.

In summary, a local pastor or t.v evangelist, quoting Malachi is nothing. I don't know of any church other than the mormon church that goes out of their way to enforce mandatory tithing. I've heard that if one forgets to tithe in the mormon church, come next meeting, you better have last week's tithe along with this week's tithe with you, and if you miss this week as well, they will send someone to your home to remind you that you missed two weeks in a row. They keep records of every member's income and tithing habits.

If the above is not your situation, and your arm is not being twisted till you give, then why are you whining about pastor's who are merely asking congregants to give? A lot of pastor's will agree with you, that it isn't good for a pastor or church, to use pressure tactics. In spite of a pastor using pressure tactics, the choice to give or not is between you and God. We can't make that any clearer.

The tithe practice is so unGodly that pastors visited believers' house to calculate all value of the assets including Cars, tv etc and determine the amount of money to clean all sins.

Why cant the pastors receive whatever is given like those 70 disciples sent by Jesus ?

Instead of demanding tithe as a 10% mandatory money, God of the Bible never ask for money. Its a stumbling stone and slandering God.

Tithe does not belong to a christian just because somebody is a pastor. Its God Law and its belonged to the Levit, to change it into money for others is not Biblical and not commanded.

A pastor who preached and write that Tithe is not Biblical has been fired by his denom here, other pastors fear and remain silent to safe their bellies.

At least i have alerted dozens thousand viewers here in this muslim nation that the God of the Bible never asked money.

Both of you please explain why 10% ? The Priest of levit only rcvd 1/100. Even if you copy paste 1/100 you Will be stoned to death if you live 2000 years ago in israel.

Many pastors have poor knowledge of historical tithe. Become a stumbling stone and destroyer of Christianity. They will face God to answer, not me.

 

Edited February 17, 2022 by R. Hartono

[R. Hartono]

On 2/15/2022 at 8:28 PM, Anne2 said:

Nu 18:4 ... I have given your priest’s office unto you as a service of gift: and the stranger <02114> that cometh nigh shall be put to death.

Very true, all Levitical commandment including tithe is given to the Levit and a stranger that even came nigh shall be put to death.

Thats why if the early church in Jerusalem ever demanded tithe they might be arrested by the whole Hebrew and be put to death accordingly.

@Omegaman 3.0 @appy

[Omegaman 3.0]

On 2/16/2022 at 6:14 PM, R. Hartono said:

The tithe practice is so unGodly that pastors visited believers' house to calculate all value of the assets including Cars, tv etc and determine the amount of money to clean all sins.

I have never heard of this being done, except in this thread. Why would anyone even let a person inside to do that? I wouldn't - I would not even let a federal tax collector in to my home to take and inventory. If they want to know, they can just ask!

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Why cant the pastors receive whatever is given like those 70 disciples sent by Jesus ?

It is not even a relevant question to the problem you allege exists. Those disciples where not part of the church, they were not Jewish priests, the were just Jewish followers of Jesus who likely paid  tithes themselves. Even the priests did not go out to collect tithes, tithes were brought to the temple or synagogues. You are comparing apples with  bread loaves!

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Instead of demanding tithe as a 10% mandatory money, God of the Bible never ask for money. Its a stumbling stone and slandering God.

You are right, God did not ask for money, he commanded a tithe of produce and animals, no asking at all. Those who loved God, obeyed Him, and surrendered to Him a portion of what already belonged to him. Those who have a proper reverence for God, are glad to be able to keep part of what God has blessed them with.

Quote

Tithe does not belong to a christian just because somebody is a pastor. Its God Law and its belonged to the Levit, to change it into money for others is not Biblical and not commanded.

Being a pastor has nothing to do with it, and in my 40 plus years as a Christian, and probably 40 plus churches I have attended regularly, occasionally, or even once, I do not ever recall anyone demanding a tithe. The closest I have seen to that, is people passing a basket or bag where they may place "tithes or offerings" neither being required. Maybe it is different in your part of the world but that has never been my experience. Maybe your county could use a reformation, if it is under a lot of legalism!

By the way, in the Bible, tithes were sometimes changed for money, but not for others, but to spend on the persons 'own desires:

24And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, when the LORD your God blesses you, because the place is too far from you, which the LORD your God chooses, to set his name there, 25then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the LORD your God chooses 26and spend the money for whatever you desire—oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.

Notice that the tithe can be spent on food and drink - party time! and also by the way, it IS commanded, not requested!

Quote

A pastor who preached and write that Tithe is not Biblical has been fired by his denom here, other pastors fear and remain silent to safe their bellies.

That is truly unfortunate!

Quote

At least i have alerted dozens thousand viewers here in this muslim nation that the God of the Bible never asked money.

Well your heart is in the right place, but as I just showed you from the Bible (Deut 14), the God of the Bible did command tithes, and He did allow it to be money under certain circumstances.

Quote

Both of you please explain why 10% ? The Priest of levit only rcvd 1/100. Even if you copy paste 1/100 you Will be stoned to death if you live 2000 years ago in israel.

I do not even understand what you are asking there. Attempting to keep it relevant to what I think your complaint is, is difficult, if you are going to run all over the Bible as if there is only one sort of tithe. Not all biblical tithes went to Levites, and they are not the equivalent of pastors in the church anyway. 

When Moses first delivered the commandment to tithe, it was to the people is Israel, and there were not any Levitical priests yet. However, in that concept, it is not that a person gave a tenth, one cannot give what does not belong to you. The tithe belongs to God, as does everything in creation. That the Levites ultimately ended up with a tenth of a tenth, is beside the point, sine the person tithing, still paid a tenth, and where that payment went from there, is not of their business.

In the church, I have never heard of a pastor getting a tenth. Here at least, typically a pastor gets a salary, not a percentage of what his (or her)  congregation owns, or earns, or contributes. Like I said, maybe things are different where you live.

In any case, churches are generally independent entities, with their own finances, forms of internal government, some are closely regulated by their denominations, other are not, many are independent.

Now, there are "pastors" here, if you can call them that, who do greedily benefit monetarily from there "ministry". Some convince their foolish followers, that if the give generously, they will receive generously from the Lord. Some of these leaders, I feel certain, are a stench in God's nostrils, but it is a tiny minority of leaders who car that way, and at some point, people should take some responsibility to read their Bibles, and not listen to just anything a person says, simply because he calls himself Reverend, or some such.

Pastors lead and take care of their sheep, those who fleece the sheep, are not pastors, they are thieves. Even those guys, usually so not compel tithing, they usually encourage people to give as much as they can, and some do, because they think they are giving to get.

By the way, do you know of even one person who what stoned to death based on tithing 2000 years ago in Israel? I do not recall any. The only money related death I can think of, was in the Church, when Ananias and Sapphira fell over dead.

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Many pastors have poor knowledge of historical tithe. Become a stumbling stone and destroyer of Christianity. They will face God to answer, not me.

That could be true about poor knowledge. Yes, they will answer to God, just as you and I will! However, they are not destroying Christianity. The Devil and his minions might like to do that, and have tried for 2000 years, but the gates of Hell shall not prevail. All that that the Father gives to Jesus will come to Him. End of story!