Mid Trib rapture anyone?

[JustPassingThru]

16 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Good spot there Just.... `men in heaven.` amazing.

Thank you Marilyn, ...my point was there are already men in Heaven before the seven years start, before the midpoint of the seven years and also before some angel blows his trumpet!

Lord bless

[JohnD]

9 hours ago, The Light said:

The final 7 years is the 70th week of Daniel. The church is already in heaven before the 70th week begins via the pretribulation rapture. The 70 week is when God deals with the Jews which occurs after the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Daniel 9 says: 24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people. That would be the Jews.

 

 

Revelation 13 (NASB95)
1 And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore. Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names.
2 And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority.
3 I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast;
4 they worshiped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?”
5 There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven.
7 It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.
8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear.
10 If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.
11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb and he spoke as a dragon.
12 He exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence. And he makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed.
13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men.
14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who had the wound of the sword and has come to life.
15 And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed.
16 And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead,
17 and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six.

The "pre-trib rapture" is actually the pre-great tribulation rapture in the middle of the 70th Week of Daniel.

[JC4me]

many apologies...I did kinda misinterpret..it was very late when I made my comments, and I had no coffee in my system!  lol

 

[Marilyn C]

36 minutes ago, JohnD said:

 

Hi JohnD,

You will need other scriptures to see whether those `saints` are the Body of Christ or are they Israel.

`For the Lord has chosen Zion....... and her SAINTS shall shout aloud for joy,...` (Ps. 132: 13 - 16)

There we read that God has saints in Israel.

Thus you will need other scriptures to prove your case, and not just assuming it is the Body of Christ.

Marilyn.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi JohnD,

You will need other scriptures to see whether those `saints` are the Body of Christ or are they Israel.

`For the Lord has chosen Zion....... and her SAINTS shall shout aloud for joy,...` (Ps. 132: 13 - 16)

There we read that God has saints in Israel.

Thus you will need other scriptures to prove your case, and not just assuming it is the Body of Christ.

Marilyn.

Chuckle! MOST of the body of Christ is not in Israel!

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, JohnD said:

Revelation 13 (NASB95)
1 And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore. Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names.
2 And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority.
3 I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast;
4 they worshiped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?”
5 There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven.
7 It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.
8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear.
10 If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.
11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb and he spoke as a dragon.
12 He exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence. And he makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed.
13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men.
14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who had the wound of the sword and has come to life.
15 And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed.
16 And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead,
17 and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six.

The "pre-trib rapture" is actually the pre-great tribulation rapture in the middle of the 70th Week of Daniel.

Chapter 12 tells us who these saints are - that is those saints who follow Jesus:

¹⁷ And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

You see, at this time, the midpoint of the week, there is only a remnant left. The main load went out with the pretrib rapture.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, JustPassingThru said:

Thank you Marilyn, ...my point was there are already men in Heaven before the seven years start, before the midpoint of the seven years and also before some angel blows his trumpet!

Lord bless

I think we can assume the 24 elders are men, not women.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, JustPassingThru said:

Can any one explain who these men are:

And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?  And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.  And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.  Rev 5:1-4

Clearly, since Jesus told John to write what he saw, ...John saw men in Heaven!

Chapter 5 comes before chapter 6.

You are not understanding what is happening here: these are ANGELS seeking someone who is worthy to take the book and open the seals. They searched heaven first, then earth, then under the earth, and this search ended in failure. "no man was found" to be worthy.

Sorry, no "men" in heaven at that time, except the elders, and we could guess, Enoch and Elijah, the two men who never died.

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, The Light said:

Whoa, struck a nerve, and you are way off by saying that the timing of chapter 5 is when Jesus ascended. 

You have absolutely no proof of that statement. In fact, your statement is easily proven in error. In Rev 4 we see 24 elders have their crowns. No way they can have their crowns before Jesus ascends. 

Rev 4

4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

So what you are saying has been proven false. That pretty much undermines your arguments.

Neither you nor anyone else knows who those elders are. But they are not any kind of proof of anything anyway.

I DO have proof. 

John saw this vision around 95 AD according to church tradition. At that time Jesus SHOULD have been at the right hand of the FAther: we have over a dozen verses telling us that is where He SHOULD HAVE BEEN.

Go and search those verses in chapter 4: John saw the throne and saw the Father on the throne, but failed to see Jesus at the right hand of the Father. Why? Because at this time Jesus was still on the earth or under the earth.

Then notice that a search was made for one worthy to take the book and open the seals, but "no man was found" worthy. Why? Because AT THAT MOMENT IN TIME, Jesus had not yet risen from the dead. (You see, John saw watching a vision of the past.)

Then, if you move on to the 5th chapter, TIME PASSED and this time Jesus WAS found worthy. Why? Because He had just risen from the dead to become the redeemer of mankind.  Then, John got to see that moment in time that Jesus ascended to the throne and sent the Holy Spirit down. 

Note carefully, if the Holy Spirit was sent down then, He was IN the throne room in chapter 4 - and we can SEE Him there as the 7 spirits of God. 

John is giving us TIMING information.  You have chosen to skip over the timing and just take the first seal OUT OF ITS context.  Many people do. The context is 32 AD or there about. 

You just though you proved what I said false.   

CAn you PROVE by scripture that the 24 elders can't have crowns before Christ has risen? Since they are seen with crowns, before Christ is risen, then that pretty much undermines your arguments.

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi iamlamad,

God the Father dwells in `unapproachable light,` (1 Tim. 6: 16) as God`s word says. His eternal throne is NOT in the created order, He always was and was before he created anything, before thrones were put in place in the different realms for He created them, (Col. 1: 16 `For by Him all things were created, that are in heaven and that are on earth,....whether thrones.....Principalities or Powers..` ) God`s ETERNAL THRONE, AUTHORITY AND POWER were NOT created and thus are OUTSIDE of what is created.

Jesus, as you rightly said, is at the Father`s right hand which is BEYOND anything created, on God`s ETERNAL THRONE.

 

Marilyn.

Wait! How do you know God did not CREATE the throne He sits on?