Mid Trib rapture anyone?

[Marilyn C]

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

How do you correlate this verse with others?

Isaiah 6:1

In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

Ezekiel 1:26

And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.

Daniel 7:9

I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

Acts 7:55

But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

 

There has been many people who testify of being in the throne room and SEEING the Father on the throne.  One man saw Jesus walk right into the Father and the two become one, and then walk right out and again and appear as two. I see no reason to think they are lying. Isaiah and Ezekiel both saw God on the throne, as well as John in Rev. 4.

Hi iamlamad,

Good to see you gathering scriptures there bro, for your view, however, as we know all scripture must agree with itself. That means you can`t have some scriptures saying one thing and then others contradicting those. So first, let us look at what God says about Himself -

`God is a Spirit...` (John 4: 24)

`....who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom NO MAN HAS SEEN OR CAN SEE....` (1 Tim. 6: 16)

God says He is a Spirit, dwelling in unapproachable light and that no man has or can see Him. quite clear there, bro, God is not visible to us and never will be, plus we cannot approach Him, except by His Holy Spirit.

So...your `thrones` are pictorial descriptions, so we with our limited human minds can comprehend in part what is incomprehensible to us. God kindly gave us `pictures` to help us in our understanding BUT they are NOT real, they are symbolic. To believe they are literal, a throne with God sitting on it, is to disbelieve what God has said about Himself, and that is the basis of our faith, `Who God is.`

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The KJV translates Strong's G2362 in the following manner:throne (54x), seat (7x).

a throne seat

Even Jesus went to sit at the Father's right hand. He will sit on the throne (a seat) not sit on His authority. 

It is the authority that is symbolic, and the seat is real. 

Hi iamlamaaad,

Strong`s says, `thronos,` Gk, word meaning a stately seat, by implication POWER.

And because God`s word says that God is a Spirit, and dwells in unapproachable light, which no man has seen or can see, then we know that the `thone` is not a seat He is sitting on, but a pictorial representation. (John 4: 24,  1 Tim. 6: 16)

Marilyn.

[JohnD]

4 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi JohnD,

You have given NO scripture/s to support your view, thus it is your own reasoning. Are you above God? well bro, I think you better find out what He says and NOT what you think without back up scripture/s.

Marilyn.

I've been doing nothing but citing and quoting scripture. I find your post quite puzzling. ???

If you are referring to the definition of "saints" then please allow me put your mind at ease...

1 Corinthians 1:2 (NASB95)
2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:

1 Corinthians 1:2 (AV)
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

UNLESS.... you believe this is my trying to "be above God???" Hmmmm???

OR!

That you believe THIS states that all who believe in Jesus are Jews since according to all who follow the extrabiblical belief that "saints" only means Jews so the saints in Revelation 13 does not conflict with their extra biblical views on the rapture.

Please go back. Reread my posts without bias and search the scriptures I cite and provide and you will find

if nothing else that I was convicted by the Bible not the other way around.

I must say I was surprised and disappointed by the way you lashed out at m.

My response to it is only in hopes you and I and everybody submits to what is actually true.

God bless.

[The Light]

10 hours ago, JohnD said:

Surely I will not let others put words in my mouth (by circular reasoning or otherwise).

When the Great Tribulation occurs there will be no believers in Jesus on Earth.

When the Jews cry out to him as a last resort he will come and save them and they will weep for him as

an only son.

I have shown the scriptures that support this (in fact which convinced me of this) and

 extrabiblical reasoning NEVER trumps scripture.

 

The church will be removed via the pretribulation rapture. After that God will turn His attention to the 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth. There will then be 144,000 first fruits which guarantees a harvest of the 12 tribes. When this harvest occurs (The coming of Jesus in Matt 24) the wrath of God will begin.

[Spock]

6 hours ago, The Light said:

The church will be removed via the pretribulation rapture. After that God will turn His attention to the 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth. There will then be 144,000 first fruits which guarantees a harvest of the 12 tribes. When this harvest occurs (The coming of Jesus in Matt 24) the wrath of God will begin.

Is the tribulation 3.5 years or 7 years?  Show me through scripture.  The book of Revelation I do not believe says the Trib is 7 years. 

[Marilyn C]

9 hours ago, JohnD said:

I've been doing nothing but citing and quoting scripture. I find your post quite puzzling. ???

If you are referring to the definition of "saints" then please allow me put your mind at ease...

1 Corinthians 1:2 (NASB95)
2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:

1 Corinthians 1:2 (AV)
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

UNLESS.... you believe this is my trying to "be above God???" Hmmmm???

OR!

That you believe THIS states that all who believe in Jesus are Jews since according to all who follow the extrabiblical belief that "saints" only means Jews so the saints in Revelation 13 does not conflict with their extra biblical views on the rapture.

Please go back. Reread my posts without bias and search the scriptures I cite and provide and you will find

if nothing else that I was convicted by the Bible not the other way around.

I must say I was surprised and disappointed by the way you lashed out at m.

My response to it is only in hopes you and I and everybody submits to what is actually true.

God bless.

Hi JohnD,

I am sorry you thought I lashed out at you, but that was not my intention. I intended to speak the truth, which is very important as we discuss God`s word. If you or I just speak our own thoughts and disregard what God says then WE are placing ourselves above God. I realise that is not your (or my) intention, but it needs to be addressed.

For eg. When you said about the `bias of the pre-trib,` then you are stating YOUR view, and if YOUR view is wrong then you are placing yourself above God. You had no scriptural proof to what you said, so really it was just a `cheap shot,` at the pre-tribbers.

Now on to the `elect.` I have said the elect can also be Israel, you have pointed out the Church as also the `elect.` However we need to connect the dots. You need scriptural internal evidence to prove that the `saints` in the trib, are the Body of Christ. Look for a description or what they say, or sing, etc to see if it shows who they are. THAT then will be your evidence.

No good just stating scriptures, we need to connect them with what we think GOD is saying, not what we assume.

Hope that is clearer, bro, no offence intended, just the importance of not going beyond what God has written, what HE SAYS.

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

23 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 

Now let's try again, and I will make it perfectly clear: IN CHAPTER 4, the vision of the throne room, Jesus was NOT SEEN at the right hand of the father, yet we have over a dozen verses telling us that is where He SHOULD HAVE BEEN in 95 AD. 

 

Hi iamlamad,

You still seem not to understand about God. God is described as - a Spirit, who dwells in unapproachable light which NO MAN has seen or can see.

`God IS a Spirit.` (John 4: 24)

`God dwelling in unapproachable light,

whom NO MAN has seen or can see,..` (1 Tim. 6: 16)

Nothing ambiguous about that description. And BEFORE creation there was God. He has His eternal throne, power and authority, BEFORE ere He made anything. God is beyond all created things. Thus the `throne `that is SET UP, is another throne BELOW God`s eternal throne.

When Jesus ascended He went to the Father`s right hand, ABOVE ALL, and NOT within the created realms. Jesus returned to the Godhead, because He is deity!

So no one, John or angels or man will see God on His eternal throne, because He is Spirit. God the Father does NOT have `hands,` that is just a pictorial representation for us to understand that the Lord Jesus is God the Father`s `right hand man,` the one who administers what He asks. a Spirit does not have hands, it is just a phrase to indicate that whatever God the Father says, the Lord Jesus will carry it out.

You think too much in earthly terms, bro.

Marilyn. 

[iamlamad]

40 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi iamlamad,

You still seem not to understand about God. God is described as - a Spirit, who dwells in unapproachable light which NO MAN has seen or can see.

`God IS a Spirit.` (John 4: 24)

`God dwelling in unapproachable light,

whom NO MAN has seen or can see,..` (1 Tim. 6: 16)

Nothing ambiguous about that description. And BEFORE creation there was God. He has His eternal throne, power and authority, BEFORE ere He made anything. God is beyond all created things. Thus the `throne `that is SET UP, is another throne BELOW God`s eternal throne.

When Jesus ascended He went to the Father`s right hand, ABOVE ALL, and NOT within the created realms. Jesus returned to the Godhead, because He is deity!

So no one, John or angels or man will see God on His eternal throne, because He is Spirit. God the Father does NOT have `hands,` that is just a pictorial representation for us to understand that the Lord Jesus is God the Father`s `right hand man,` the one who administers what He asks. a Spirit does not have hands, it is just a phrase to indicate that whatever God the Father says, the Lord Jesus will carry it out.

You think too much in earthly terms, bro.

Marilyn. 

Marilyn, what would YOU do if Jesus Christ, the head of the Church, asked YOU why John did not see Him at the Father's right hand, in this vision of 95 AD, when there are over a dozen verses saying that is exactly where He should have been - and Stephen SAW Him there. 

You see, Marilyn, Jesus asked ME that question. I could not answer it. I had no answer.  Perhaps you need to refresh your mind on these scriptures: There are more, but this is enough. There can be no doubt whatsoever, Jesus ascended to be at the right hand of the Father. Stephen SAW Him there.

Acts 7:55  But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

Acts 7:56  And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Romans 8:34  Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Ephesians 1:20  Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

Colossians 3:1  If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Hebrews 1:3  Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Hebrews 1:13  But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Hebrews 8:1  Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

Hebrews 10:12  But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Hebrews 12:2  Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

 1 Peter 3:22  Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

You still seem not to understand about God. God is described as - a Spirit, who dwells in unapproachable light which NO MAN has seen or can see.  I asked you what you do when other scriptures describe people SEEING God on the throne. So perhaps you have given me your answer: you just ignore those scriptures in favor of these.  Somehow, Marilyn, I cannot ignore scriptures. I will ask you again, HOW did Isaiah, Ezekiel, John, and Stephen SEE Him?

Your next mistake: Jesus took on HUMAN FLESH and will forever HAVE Human flesh. 

John 1:14

¹⁴ The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

God the Father may forever stay as SPIRIT, but the SON will forever remain with Human flesh.

a Spirit does not have hands  HOW do you know God (the Father) has no hands? You are guessing.  I think He does. After all, we are created in His image and after His likeness.  Angels are spirit beings and they have hands. I think our human spirits have hands. 

Commentators seem to think that it is only MORTAL eyes that cannot bear the brightness of His light. 

" That light is unapproachable to creatures, except in so far as they are admitted by Him, and as He goes forth to them [Bengel]...It is unapproachable on account of its exceeding brightness [Theophylact]. If one cannot gaze steadfastly at the sun, which is but a small part of creation, by reason of its exceeding heat and power, how much less can mortal man gaze at the inexpressible glory of God [Theophylact, To Autolycus]"..."Still the saints shall, in some sense, have the blessedness of seeing Him, which is denied to mere man..."  (Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary)

"Which no man can approach unto; to which no man can in this life come nigh. " (Poole Commentary)

Dwelling in that light which no man can approach unto; in this present, frail, and mortal state;  (Gill's Commentary)

Then we have 1 John 3:2  AMP  Beloved, we are [even here and] now children of God, and it is not yet made clear what we will be [after His coming]. We know that when He comes and is revealed, we will [as His children] be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is [in all His glory].

You say He is inapproachable, Yet John disagrees with you. it seems, that verse in 1 Timothy must be qualified. Perhaps he should have added:  

16who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see (unless God WILLS to be seen.) 

or

16who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see (except from a distance.)

or

16who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see (in their mortal state.)

(It is either one of these, or Isaiah, Ezekiel, John and Stephen did not see him and the verses that SAID He was seen are in error.)

[Marilyn C]

29 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

 

 

You say He is inapproachable, Yet John disagrees with you. it seems, that verse in 1 Timothy must be qualified. Perhaps he should have added:  

16who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see (unless God WILLS to be seen.) 

or

16who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see (except from a distance.)

or

16who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see (in their mortal state.)

(It is either one of these, or Isaiah, Ezekiel, John and Stephen did not see him and the verses that SAID He was seen are in error.)

Hi iamlamad,

You are disagreeing with what God says about Himself. Stephen saw the glorified Lord Jesus, BUT NOT GOD THE FATHER, whom no man has seen or can see.

BTW you are adding to scripture there bro, very, very dangerous to your faith and others who are reading.

Marilyn.

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, The Light said:

The church will be removed via the pretribulation rapture. After that God will turn His attention to the 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth. There will then be 144,000 first fruits which guarantees a harvest of the 12 tribes. When this harvest occurs (The coming of Jesus in Matt 24) the wrath of God will begin.

The church will be removed via the pretribulation rapture.  So far so good.

After that God will turn His attention to the 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth. Again, So far so good.

There will then be 144,000 first fruits which guarantees a harvest of the 12 tribes. Again, So far so good.

When this harvest occurs (The coming of Jesus in Matt 24) the wrath of God will begin. WRONG! Please, can we just follow scripture as written? John tells us that God's wrath begins at the 6th seal. the 6th seal is one of 7 that is preventing the book from being opened and those events written inside from coming to pass UNTIL all 7 are opened. In other words, the trumpet judgments come from INSIDE the book, and no trumpet can ever be sounded until all 7 seals are opened. Therefore, there is NO POSSIBLE WAY that the 6th seal can be rearranged or moved to any other spot in Revelation. In other words, God's wrath begins before the trumpets so that every trumpet judgment comes with His wrath. Same with the vials. 

The truth is, the ENTIRE 70th WEEK will come with God's wrath. There is further proof of this.